FOLDED KK - it was a BRILLIANT FEELING - but now I realise it was wrong - I think!!!!

imber

welldone it is a feel good factor when u fold kings and some 1 has aces i only done it once in a cash game 20 nl 10p/20p blinds this guy limped utg then folded round to me big blind with kings i raise to a £1 then the guy who limped 20p just went all in full buy in £20  i thought to myself u might aswell have ya hand face up to limp then shove all in £20 unless hes on tilt lol i sigh folded and guy showed aces did pat myself on the back  

imber

Last night I feel I "came of age" and did the right thing. Down to the bubble in a deepstack where I had raised x3 followed by an all in and all in!!!!!

I considered for a while - and FOLDED my KK.

AA and 55 went head to head - and the bullets took it. On the negative side I would have got a straight and taken both but I felt I had done the right thing.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
jolie	Small blind		200.00	200.00	13147.50
scotty368	Big blind		400.00	600.00	3427.50
	Your hole cards	K K
bungle72	Raise		800.00	1400.00	28012.50
imber	Call		800.00	2200.00	18212.50
jolie	Fold
scotty368	All-in		3427.50	5627.50	0.00
bungle72	All-in		28012.50	33640.00	0.00
imber	Fold
bungle72	Unmatched bet		24985.00	8655.00	24985.00
scotty368	Show	A A
bungle72	Show	5 5
Flop
		A 10 Q
Turn
		9
River
		J
scotty368	Win	Three Aces	8655.00		8655.00

Curt360x27

In Response to FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!!:

Last night I feel I "came of age" and did the right thing. Down to the bubble in a deepstack where I had raised x3 followed by an all in and all in!!!!! I considered for a while - and FOLDED my KK. AA and 55 went head to head - and the bullets took it. On the negative side I would have got a straight and taken both but I felt I had done the right thing.
Posted by imber

lol you should feel lucky that when you misclick folded oppo flipped over AA. Surely this was the case an this thread is a joke? Right? 

imber

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!!:

In Response to FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!! : lol you should feel lucky that when you misclick folded oppo flipped over AA. Surely this was the case an this thread is a joke? Right? 
Posted by Curt360x27

not a joke curt - but i do appreciate your scepticism. forgot to add we had been playing for about two and a half hours and the second caller had a bigger stack then me (i was 2nd out of 4 with 30+BB LEFT) - i would portentially have fallen at the bubble after all that work - so it was considered - honest!!!

rancid

never folding KK here )

pr1nnyraid

Good fold on the bubble wp

Curt360x27

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!!:

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!! : not a joke curt - but i do appreciate your scepticism. forgot to add we had been playing for about two and a half hours and the second caller had a bigger stack then me (i was 2nd out of 4 with 30+BB LEFT) - i would portentially have fallen at the bubble after all that work - so it was considered - honest!!!
Posted by imber

I understand you not wanting to crash out on the bubble, however we must get our chips in here 100% of the time. It's a dream situation!

In poker we base our decisions on long term results. Agreed sometimes we are going to run into AA here aswell as being outdrawn by a weaker hand but in the long run getting our 30bb stack in here with KK is +EV. The majority of the time here your going to double up plus whatever the shorter stack had and are going to be in the best position to go on and win the tournament.  

Also remember you only have to beat the player who has you covered, if the short stack wins your fine.

unknown_username

Hi Imber

I can see where you're coming from. You've folded a premium hand and feel like you have crossed a boundary in your thinking....
However, the bubble shouldn't affect your play. Looking at stack sizes of other players could easily have made this a call for you as the real aim is to top three, some would say win, not just to cash. I've played at the same table as you and felt tha you played the game well as far as i could gather. A double up may have allowed your game to widen, bully a little and FT. In every T there are going to be min 3 lucky pots for you if you are to FT.
Gl at the tables...see you in DTD eh?

DOHHHHHHH

This is a hand I noted down last night.

Totally different, this is the easiest fold ever, but got a shock when I saw I would have been ahead!

I had alot of outs to cheer for tho.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Scrivener	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£62.10
SHANKS474	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£27.90
beaubelle6	Big blind		£0.30	£0.75	£13.70
	Your hole cards	K K
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£1.20	£1.95	£29.65
beaubelle6	Call		£0.90	£2.85	£12.80
winlose	Call		£1.20	£4.05	£18.69
Scrivener	Fold
SHANKS474	Call		£0.90	£4.95	£27.00
Flop
		J Q 3
SHANKS474	Check
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£3.00	£7.95	£26.65
beaubelle6	All-in		£12.80	£20.75	£0.00
winlose	Call		£12.80	£33.55	£5.89
SHANKS474	All-in		£27.00	£60.55	£0.00
DOHHHHHHH	Fold
winlose	All-in		£5.89	£66.44	£0.00
SHANKS474	Unmatched bet		£8.31	£58.13	£8.31
SHANKS474	Show	9 10
beaubelle6	Show	3 A
winlose	Show	A Q
Turn
		6
River
		8
SHANKS474	Win	Straight to the Queen	£56.33		£64.64

unknown_username

Hi DoHHH

Sorry Imber to put something to Him, instead. I don't play cash but could you try to give me a run through of yours  thouhts in he hand and what the others may have been doing. Tell me if this is ok? You thought a set was out there presumably. One player chucks in with third pair but looks like an 'end of bi' w/ 3rd pr. Call from winlose suggests what it is  maybe top /middle pr then Shanks has oesd with just 8 outs so about 32%, yes? His raise gives4 to 1 odds to winlose to call so he must, yes? I know shanks is avery good reg but i don't understand why he does that or even why you fold. Mind thats cash and as i say, i don't play. It seems to have a different vibe about it.

rancid

one pr is no good, lolz it is

& U HAVE 2 BLOCKERS LOL

Lambert180

Well Profman, looking at the stack size of winlose, he only has £5 behind and the pot is already £33 and will be £45 if shanks calls so it's not like winlose can ever fold from that point onwards.

I know it says Shanks bet £27 but it's irrelevant because WinLose only has the £12 he's put in plus the £5 behind. So basically when he shoves he knows WinLose will call, so he is paying £17 to win a pot of £55 so it just about +EV and his outs are almost certain to be clean outs.

FlyingDagg

Interesting point Imber. I think it depends how much you want a cash of any sort. It's a great fold under those circumstances but long term it's a bad one. IDCU has made the point of his fold but that was a cash game so is totally different. You only get one stab at winning a tourney. I doubt whether I could find a fold there. One thing I learnt a long time ago is that sometimes it's the folds you make ( not necessarily KK) when faced with a big decision as much as the hands you win that can win you tournaments.

imber

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!!:

Interesting point Imber. I think it depends how much you want a cash of any sort. It's a great fold under those circumstances but long term it's a bad one. IDCU has made the point of his fold but that was a cash game so is totally different. You only get one stab at winning a tourney. I doubt whether I could find a fold there. One thing I learnt a long time ago is that sometimes it's the folds you make ( not necessarily KK) when faced with a big decision as much as the hands you win that can win you tournaments.
Posted by FlyingDagg

in my defence - i was under the gun and extremely surprised that 2 out of my 3 remaining opponents went all in. Prior to that i was doing cartwheels and ready to jump on any single player - against 2 players i felt a stray ACE and an ace flop could have ended my dreams there and then. thanx for all comments - it's good to see we all think differently!

Slykllist

No need to defend yourself in my opinion, utg raise followed by 2 all-ins, I think you made a very good, very disciplined fold.  Personally I would have had all my chips in the middle and doing a little dance around the room, but you know exactly why you made the fold and your reasoning was spot on, I'd say you did pretty good!

GaryQQQ

Knowing the result it was a great read, very well played Imber.

Personally I'd find it almost impossible to fold pocket KK at any stage of a tournament in which stacks are relatively shallow, as is always the case on the bubble. I'd only hesitate to consider it perhaps if the second shover was mega-uber-super-tight and was putting his tournament life on the line on the stone-cold bubble.

Everybody is different as you say. My prefered approach; whether it's the bubble or not I'm prepared to take any calculated risk that may win me a potentially tournament winning stack. After all, one win is worth more than many min-cashes, so in my opinion the risk/reward ratio makes getting the chips in the middle the most profitable option over the long run.

Mohican

If you folded because it was the bubble it was the wrong fold. If you folded because of this- against 2 players i felt a stray ACE and an ace flop could have ended my dreams there and then.  then it was the wrong fold. You can't worry about getting it all-in vs Ax as you are giving up being a 70% favourite, a massive edge in poker.
If you folded because the situation and your gut told you he had AA, then it's a good fold. Was the large stack 1st or 2nd all-in?

Curt360x27

I think the people giving imber credit for the fold are completely missing the point. 

The fold is horrendous no matter how hard you try to justify it.

bearlyther

We shouldnt be results orientated yes if you had called you would have lost but that doesnt make it right folding kk.  Only time im ever folding KK is in some kind of satelite situation where im 2nd in chips virtually guaranteed a spot and the player 1st in chips goes allin or in a dym when there is 4 players left and 1 guy as like 60 chips or something like that.  Other than that im never folding kk

unknown_username

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!!:

Well Profman, looking at the stack size of winlose, he only has £5 behind and the pot is already £33 and will be £45 if shanks calls so it's not like winlose can ever fold from that point onwards. I know it says Shanks bet £27 but it's irrelevant because WinLose only has the £12 he's put in plus the £5 behind. So basically when he shoves he knows WinLose will call, so he is paying £17 to win a pot of £55 so it just about +EV and his outs are almost certain to be clean outs.
Posted by Lambert180

Sorry Lambert, i misread the table and thought he had £33 left so couldn't understand the reasoning behind the bet. I don't play cash so i'm not sure of even the basic betting situations to be honest. Cheers

PS I knew you'd opened a can of worms Imber. Haha. Mind its lovely to have dodged a bullet isn't it? cheers

Lambert180

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!!:

We shouldnt be results orientated yes if you had called you would have lost but that doesnt make it right folding kk.  Only time im ever folding KK is in some kind of satelite situation where im 2nd in chips virtually guaranteed a spot and the player 1st in chips goes allin or in a dym when there is 4 players left and 1 guy as like 60 chips or something like that.  Other than that im never folding kk
Posted by bearlyther

If he'd have called he'd have won actually (he did say this) lol but that's beside the point anyway.

I'm not defending him but we have very little info, we don't even know which one shoved first. If the shorty shoved first then it's perfectly believable the big stack was isolating with AQ/AK, PPs maybe something like 88-JJ.

Whereas if the big stack shoved first, there is none of that dynamic but then would be a strange move for a really big stack to just 3bet shove against a fellow big stack unless they're known to make terrible calls.

I also don't know anything abuot the BI of the tourney or the payout structure. Granted the BI should technically not make any difference but to some players if min-cashing is for example £300, then it makes a big difference. But the payout structure is fairly important. I remember some of the tournies used to run would pay quite well but very few places, like the Survivor used to be usually top 3 paid, something like £500, £350, £150, so in that case, taking a +EV line, may be a -$EV decision.

imber

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!!:

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!! : Sorry Lambert, i misread the table and thought he had £33 left so couldn't understand the reasoning behind the bet. I don't play cash so i'm not sure of even the basic betting situations to be honest. Cheers PS I knew you'd opened a can of worms Imber. Haha. Mind its lovely to have dodged a bullet isn't it? cheers
Posted by profman15

actually i would have cleaned up with the straight!!!!!!!!!!! the mega stack was the SECOND all-in - but i am glad it has brought so much reaction - don't mind curt's read on it - i would probably say the same - it was just the second all-in that told me something was wrong even though the AA was in the first (small stack)

sighcall

-EV to put it simply

CHILLIE

This is a brillant read and a very good fold,we play to win but we also play to cash, and being the bubble with 2 allins it could be easy to put one of them on aces, which this time u were right so very gd fold sir. Dont get the negative players saying its a wrong play,we play the game and have to make diffucult decisions all the time in a game and this as one of them,i say it takes a very gd player to lay this down.

rancid

Funny thread

Run this as situation as many times as you like, your gonna feel like a right plonker when they turn over anything but aces the majority of the time

 

Gl gg

 

Curt360x27

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!!:

This is a brillant read and a very good fold,we play to win but we also play to cash, and being the bubble with 2 allins it could be easy to put one of them on aces, which this time u were right so very gd fold sir. Dont get the negative players saying its a wrong play,we play the game and have to make diffucult decisions all the time in a game and this as one of them,i say it takes a very gd player to lay this down.
Posted by CHILLIE

lol

CHILLIE

ive seen this in a cash game as well 2 players get it all in ljamesl with ks lays them down and this morning in a dym, 1 player shoves aq next calls with aces player3 on the bubble folds ks lol as much as u want proved the right fold every time.

IDONKCALLU

chillie tbf i dnt thinkit takes a really good player to make this fold all depends on how much u need the cash i think if imber had a decnt bankroll and not fussed about a min cash or not i think he would call this easily in other words if this was my last money on my account and want more monies to play with i woud fold to ladder up and make a cash if i had like a nice roll and this tourney doesnt mean to much to my bankroll im making the call all day long i dunno where imber is in the situation so i cant comment it is a tight fold i dnt think i could make it i did say welldone for folding kings  in this situation i couldnt tho 

imber

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!!:

chillie tbf i dnt thinkit takes a really good player to make this fold all depends on how much u need the cash i think if imber had a decnt bankroll and not fussed about a min cash or not i think he would call this easily in other words if this was my last money on my account and want more monies to play with i woud fold to ladder up and make a cash if i had like a nice roll and this tourney doesnt mean to much to my bankroll im making the call all day long i dunno where imber is in the situation so i cant comment it is a tight fold i dnt think i could make it i did say welldone for folding kings  in this situation i couldnt tho 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

was not a bankroll issue idonk - but it is frustrating to bubble after two and a half hours slog. I would not have posted if deep down i didn't think I had made a negative move (voluntarily) based on the "feel" of the game. Surely it is an indication of "mega hands" at bubble if TWO players out of four before your shout go all-in. I would have folded without a second thought if it was a DYM.

FlyingDagg

So the ones who called it a bad fold are having a laugh at the others? A scenario for you. A goalkeeper in a penalty shootout faces 5 penalties. First 4 are scored to his left. 5th one he dives to his right and saves it. Would you say that was wrong he should have dived to the left even though he saved it? Under those circumstances it was the correct move and so it was with Imber under those specific circumstances. Give him credit for that please.

imber

In Response to Re: FOLDED KK - WHAT A BRILLIANT FEELING!!!!!!:

ive seen this in a cash game as well 2 players get it all in ljamesl with ks lays them down and this morning in a dym, 1 player shoves aq next calls with aces player3 on the bubble folds ks lol as much as u want proved the right fold every time.
Posted by CHILLIE

thanx for that chillie - if it's good enough for ljamesl it's good enough for me!!