Can i get away from this??

smarr

Hand History #558754097 (22:49 31/08/2012)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceraivimSmall blind 1000.001000.0044923.00bloodboyBig blind 2000.003000.0015284.00 Your hole cards10A   joker48Call 2000.005000.0084057.25smarrRaise 4000.009000.00100701.50DoubleAAAFold    raivimFold    bloodboyFold    joker48Call 2000.0011000.0082057.25Flop  A10Q   joker48Bet 11000.0022000.0071057.25smarrAll-in 100701.50122701.500.00joker48All-in 71057.25193758.750.00smarrUnmatched bet 18644.25175114.5018644.25joker48ShowKJ   smarrShow10A   Turn  8   River  5   joker48WinStraight to the Ace175114.50 175114.5

Lambert180

Don't min 3bet because you will get called by virtually 100% of his opening range. I don't like 3betting ATo at this stage of a tourney anyway.

It's hard to get off on the flop, but definitely don't shove the flop because you're making it really hard for you to ever get called by a hand you're beating.

smarr

i have been min raising alot of hands and lifting them, im min raising here to get the call as i have been doing it alot.

Is this bad thinking?

samboram45

there is no 3bet! witht so much in pot dnt think u cn fold

Lambert180

Sorry I thought the opener min-raised and then Smarr 3bet. I still don't like min-3betting unless you know he definitely calls with alot of worse hands and are confident of being able to outplay him.

I agree, that you're probably not gonna be able to fold, but you still shouldnt shove, because sometimes he will have hands you can get more value from. Like if he makes this bet with KQ and you shove, he probably folds and you miss out on stacking him.

samboram45

why on earth is the villian donking ? he has nuts , if he thinks u have smacked the flop u are guna get money in anyway ! his donk bet could be interpreted as a raggy ace where he dnt really wana play more streets on  a wet board but when u shove i still think a lot of oppos might call u with  a bare ace ! think u plyed it fine

percival09

I raise bigger pre. 

I probz can't fold here but I'm not sure how often you're gonna be ahead if all the money goes in. Villain looks fishy so it's probably ok. I don't think shove is too bad but I probs raise to like 24K or something and get it in on most turn cards

smarr

do we call it a cooler?

DoubleAAA

Personally I feel that we can get away from this.  When we shove like this we basically fold out everything that we beat except for QT and J9s.  We can comfortably raise this x2.2 to around 24200 and fold to a shove, shutting down if flatted thus preserving a 35bb stack.

Even if we get flatted, our villian will more than likely check the turn, so we can get to the river with the pot around 50k, so even if our villian value bets the river 30k we have only lost 54k from our 100k stack thus leaving ourselves with 23bbs.

-Note; If villian fires the turn after we raised the flop I think we can suck it up and walk away from this hand.

let's take a look at our villians range;

TT, KJ, QT, J9s which makes us a 40-60 outsider

You could add in additional hands such as KQ, AJ etc but do you really think that this player is spewy enough to stack off with those holdings?  I was on the table and our villian was a cautious player.  If we're up against a spewtard then your play is fine as we get villian to stack off with KQ and we're also called by J9s.

Interested to see what you think of my analysis.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

why on earth is the villian donking ? he has nuts , if he thinks u have smacked the flop u are guna get money in anyway ! his donk bet could be interpreted as a raggy ace where he dnt really wana play more streets on  a wet board but when u shove i still think a lot of oppos might call u with  a bare ace ! think u plyed it fine
Posted by samboram45

Villians line is absolutely fine as he wants to start to get chips in the middle, if he takes the chk/raise line it looks far too strong on this board.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

Personally I feel that we can get away from this.  When we shove like this we basically fold out everything that we beat except for QT and J9s.  We can comfortably raise this x2.2 to around 24200 and fold to a shove, shutting down if flatted thus preserving a 35bb stack. Even if we get flatted, our villian will more than likely check the turn, so we can get to the river with the pot around 50k, so even if our villian value bets the river 30k we have only lost 54k from our 100k stack thus leaving ourselves with 23bbs. -Note; If villian fires the turn after we raised the flop I think we can suck it up and walk away from this hand. let's take a look at our villians range; TT, KJ, QT, J9s which makes us a 40-60 outsider You could add in additional hands such as KQ, AJ etc but do you really think that this player is spewy enough to stack off with those holdings?  I was on the table and our villian was a cautious player.  If we're up against a spewtard then your play is fine as we get villian to stack off with KQ and we're also called by J9s. Interested to see what you think of my analysis.
Posted by DoubleAAA

This is really bad IMO. If we have to shutdown after raising then don't raise

Op played hand fine. I prefer more pre and raising less on flop, intending to get it in if raised or else on most turns. 

sortofblue

I think that min raising will not get him to fold so I prefer either the call or more preferable a bigger preflop raise. Once we get to the flop however and they bet into you I think it is better to just call trying to extract value from other hands that you have beaten, such as AK, AJ, and A9-A2, QT that are just trying to take the pot down. By jamming you fold out all of these hands and any random bluffs and are only able to be called by a flopped set (AA and TT unlikely because of your cards, so only likely is QQ) or the flopped straight. As it is the chips probably go in at some point in the hand in this situation but the way the money goes in I think you lose value from the more times that you are winning compared to when you are beaten.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

I think that min raising will not get him to fold so I prefer either the call or more preferable a bigger preflop raise. Once we get to the flop however and they bet into you I think it is better to just call trying to extract value from other hands that you have beaten, such as AK, AJ, and A9-A2, QT that are just trying to take the pot down. By jamming you fold out all of these hands and any random bluffs and are only able to be called by a flopped set (AA and TT unlikely because of your cards, so only likely is QQ) or the flopped straight. As it is the chips probably go in at some point in the hand in this situation but the way the money goes in I think you lose value from the more times that you are winning compared to when you are beaten.
Posted by sortofblue

This guy is never showing up with AK as he will not flat OOP PF with this holding. I was on the table with both of these players.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : This is really bad IMO. If we have to shutdown after raising then don't raise Op played hand fine. I prefer more pre and raising less on flop, intending to get it in if raised or else on most turns. 
Posted by grantorino

He can't raise more pf as he is keeping in-line with his standard pf raise. Our 2.2x raise on the flop let's Ax, KQ, QT, KJ, J9s to check the turn giving us a free card to the river. I am so surprised that a few of you are prepared to stack off Top/Bottom 2 pair on such a dangerous board when the field is weak and there will be other spots.

percival09

he can't raise more pf because he's keeping in-line with his standard pf raise? well make your standard pf raise bigger then. Min raise is fine with no limpers but with a limper you should raise bigger

Curt360x27

Oppo is obviously bad so it's very hard to get away from this. On the flop I think I flat but I dont think you did anything wrong getting the chips in.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : He can't raise more pf as he is keeping in-line with his standard pf raise. Our 2.2x raise on the flop let's Ax, KQ, QT, KJ, J9s to check the turn giving us a free card to the river. I am so surprised that a few of you are prepared to stack off Top/Bottom 2 pair on such a dangerous board when the field is weak and there will be other spots.
Posted by DoubleAAA

I am surprised you wanna turn 2pair into a bluff

NColley

lol @ wanting to fold 2 pairs vs a limp caller

Don't ship flop in most cases, call and let him continue to fire on the turn.

offshoot

Call and get it in on the turn. Shoving flop isnt terrible though. You definitely do not fold out worse. Any ace will call a decent amount of the time. Calling is preferable though to keep in Q's, T's.

died

There's only KT, AK and K9 which we're beating here which is gonna call the jam. Every other hand in his range has you crushed...why you shoving?

Lambert180

Since when would K9 ever call a jam here lol. People are way more likely to call with AJ (which we're beating)

died

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

Since when would K9 ever call a jam here lol. People are way more likely to call with AJ (which we're beating)
Posted by Lambert180

Really? Thanks for clarifying.

Some people would call with a gutshot. And as always when analysing a hand i was merely pointing out POSSIBLE hands that MAY CONSIDER calling, not hands that he actually has.

And i think the money has to go in, i was just querying the shove.

samboram45

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : Villians line is absolutely fine as he wants to start to get chips in the middle, if he takes the chk/raise line it looks far too strong on this board.
Posted by DoubleAAA

he does need to donk out to get money in the middle , if hero had small or medium pair he's jus going to fold. if villian checks , hreo is obvz going to c-bet !  he does not have toto c/r flop , he has nuts on rainbow board ! nt saying its the worst play cz he gt all the money ....

DoubleAAA

Sorry my mistake, I was thinking that villian was BB and not a limper.  So with him being a limper it's imperative that we raise more pf but shoving that flop is awful as I explained earlier we fold out everything that we beat and only get called by everything that has us beat. You don't want to play your whole stack on this board which smacks his range so often.

When we shove what do you expect to call you that we have beat apart from QT and J9s and he won't be showing up with J9s given the fact that he limped EP?

Raising this flop is fine as we will in most cases get a free river card and have controlled the pot.  If we just call then villian gets another 2 bets out of us.

@ NColley - So given you flat the flop, then what do we do on the turn as we have got no info as to where we are. Sorry but flatting this flop is just bahhh.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

Sorry my mistake, I was thinking that villian was BB and not a limper.  So with him being a limper it's imperative that we raise more pf but shoving that flop is awful as I explained earlier we fold out everything that we beat and only get called by everything that has us beat. You don't want to play your whole stack on this board which smacks his range so often. When we shove what do you expect to call you apart from QT and J9s and he won't be showing up with J9s given the fact that he limped EP? @ NColley - So given you flat the flop, then what do we do on the turn as we have got no info as to where we are. Sorry but flatting this flop is just bahhh.
Posted by DoubleAAA

Where do people keep getting this idea people would call the shove with J9s on a rainbow board, sure some really bad players would call with a GS but the people who are bad enough to call with a gutshot will easily call with AK, AJ,  maybe KQ , certainly QT and probably tons more weak hands... who calls that big a shove with only a GS on that board?

You flat the flop because it allows him to keep betting with his weaker hands. I think if he has KJ here, you're going bust and that's the end of it, but you wanna get the most of the times he has other hands.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : Where do people keep getting this idea people would call the shove with J9s on a rainbow board, sure some really bad players would call with a GS but the people who are bad enough to call with a gutshot will easily call with AK, AJ,  maybe KQ , certainly QT and probably tons more weak hands... who calls that big a shove with only a GS on that board? You flat the flop because it allows him to keep betting with his weaker hands. I think if he has KJ here, you're going bust and that's the end of it, but you wanna get the most of the times he has other hands.
Posted by Lambert180

J9s is not a gut-shot, it's an OESD and as you well know some will call an all-in with that draw although personally speaking IMO it's incorrect.


The hands that beat us are set Ts, Qs, KJ, AQ and villian will hardly ever show up with QQ and AK here.

We fold out; 22-99, JJ, A2-A9, KQ, KT and possibly J9s.

Hands that call us that we have beat; QT, J9s (AJ debatable), (AK villian hardly ever shows up with this)
Workout the number of combinations that beat us and that we have beat that calls us and then tell me if you still think that shoving this flop is +EV.

So please can you post what hands will call our flop shove for 50bbs aside from QT and possibly AJ? 

Edit - I forgot to mention that villian will hardly ever show up with KK and will not call a shove regardless.

Lambert180

I'm definitely in the 'dont shove flop' group, see my first post, where I tell him not to shove flop lol.

I just wasn't sure about the hands you say call when we do shove. Fair point that I missed J9 was OESD, but yeah I still think we can raise the flop (without shoving) and keep in weaker hands than ours, especially when alot of bad players don't realise that calling the raise is gonna leave them virtually committed with a hand that can only be 2nd best.

I am a fish though, so don't give my comments much weight lol.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

I'm definitely in the 'dont shove flop' group, see my first post, where I tell him not to shove flop lol. I just wasn't sure about the hands you say call when we do shove. Fair point that I missed J9 was OESD, but yeah I still think we can raise the flop (without shoving) and keep in weaker hands than ours, especially when alot of bad players don't realise that calling the raise is gonna leave them virtually committed with a hand that can only be 2nd best. I am a fish though, so don't give my comments much weight lol.
Posted by Lambert180

Like we said, villian will hardly ever show up with J9s anyway.

So for those of you that think that the shove is fine, please can you post what hands that we beat call us for 50bbs.

samboram45

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:

In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : Like we said, villian will hardly ever show up with J9s anyway. So for those of you that think that the shove is fine, please can you post what hands that we beat call us for 50bbs.
Posted by DoubleAAA

in my experience u will get clled by ace rag frm a lot of weak opponents and obvz worse two pairsobvz and some fish might call with  a str8 draw ! ur ahead loads of time

NColley

ok doubleAAA, you go ahead and turn 2 pairs into bluff regularly, see where it gets you...

raise folding 2 pair is pretty lols

Wacko90

Flat flop and shove turn. Not getting away from this one especially as he has limped he more often than not turn over a rag ace i think, your just ul here