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Can i get away from this??

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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    ok doubleAAA, you go ahead and turn 2 pairs into bluff regularly, see where it gets you... raise folding 2 pair is pretty lols
    Posted by NColley
    We fold if we get shoved on the flop for sure. Our 2.2x flop raise allows us to most of the time find out where we are and usually get the turn chkd to us which controls the pot. We're deep and this board is just too murky.

    If he value bets the river we can safely call and still have around 50bbs left.

    Like I said, if we shove this flop you tell me what hands do we get called by?
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  • samboram45samboram45
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : We fold if we get shoved on the flop for sure. Our 2.2x flop raise allows us to most of the time find out where we are and usually get the turn chkd to us which controls the pot. We're deep and this board is just too murky. If he value bets the river we can safely call and still have around 50bbs left. Like I said, if we shove this flop you tell me what hands do we get called by?
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    u need to understand tht there are so many plyers on the site tht will call  a raise pre with ace rag and be haappy to get in on this flop  ! your ahead 95 percent of time against most oppos IMO
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : u need to understand tht there are so many plyers on the site tht will call  a raise pre with ace rag and be haappy to get in on this flop  ! your ahead 95 percent of time against most oppos IMO
    Posted by samboram45
    95% of the time we're ahead? really? wow!! I would love to know how you calculated that figure! lol

    Oh and by the way, I was on the table when this hand took place and villian wasn't a donkey.
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  • samboram45samboram45
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : 95% of the time we're ahead? really? wow!! I would love to know how you calculated that figure! lol Oh and by the way, I was on the table when this hand took place and villian wasn't a donkey.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    im hyperbolising obviously ! agree to disagree cba anymore! im nt sying the villian was a donkey but his donk bet was still shockin
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : im hyperbolising obviously ! agree to disagree cba anymore! im nt sying the villian was a donkey but his donk bet was still shockin
    Posted by samboram45
    Okay but I think his Donk bet was perfectly fine although check/calling is perfectly fine.  Check/raising just looks too strong.
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  • bearlytherbearlyther
    edited September 2012
    Your raise size pre is fine when someone limps in there never folding to a raise anyway so its best to keep the pot small and we have position on him no need to inflate the pot when the blinds go up im happy to play lots of marginal hands in position and make my decisions postflop.  Dont raise the flop this is really bad we are ahead most of the time here and a jam folds out all the hands we want to stay in with us just flat the flop.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited September 2012
    Lol at this thread

    Raise/fold flop sucks because

    Raise villain folds. Uh oh I had the best hand I wanted a call

    Raise villain calls. I am beat omg I suck

    Either raise and get it in or call and play

    Someone ban this
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    Lol at this thread Raise/fold flop sucks because Raise villain folds. Uh oh I had the best hand I wanted a call Raise villain calls. I am beat omg I suck Either raise and get it in or call and play Someone ban this
    Posted by grantorino
    I think you're missing the point. We raise the flop x2.2 to see where we're at and to get the turn checked to us so we can control the pot. If we call the flop, then we also have to call both turn and river which we will lose more money.  Getting it in on this flop is fine if we're 0-15bbs as we will get looked up far more often by draws, weak Ace and possibly KQ but as we're 50bb stacks we're NEVER getting looked up by a worse hand except for QT and possibly AJ so it's -EV.

    If you want the thread closed just don't bother to read it, I personally think this hand is a very good hand for discussion.
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  • NColleyNColley
    edited September 2012
    doubleAAA prob just some troll

    /thread
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited September 2012
    If we 2.2x raise the flop and fold we throw away 40% of our stack by bluffing with a flopped 2pr. On top of that, when we 2.2x, and he shoves we're only gonna have to call about 35k to win about 140k and we have 2 Aces and 2 Tens to hit so nearly 20% chance of hitting even if we are behind, which we won't be alot of the time.

    If you don't wanna get it in with 2pr here then don't raise pre.
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    If we 2.2x raise the flop and fold we throw away 40% of our stack by bluffing with a flopped 2pr. On top of that, when we 2.2x, and he shoves we're only gonna have to call about 35k to win about 140k and we have 2 Aces and 2 Tens to hit so nearly 20% chance of hitting even if we are behind, which we won't be alot of the time. If you don't wanna get it in with 2pr here then don't raise pre.
    Posted by Lambert180
    If we fold flop if he shoves on us we lose 25% of our stack not 40% take a look at the stacks.  I said we raise to around 24k.

    Obviously Im looking at this from a completely different perspective than some of you guys.  Maybe Im wrong, who knows, agree to disagree on this one.  I may post the hand changing names on 2+2 and see what they say there about how to play the hand.
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    doubleAAA prob just some troll /thread
    Posted by NColley
    Not a troll NColley, just interested in this particular hand as it's very tricky.  Try not to be so rude eh.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : I think you're missing the point. We raise the flop x2.2 to see where we're at and to get the turn checked to us so we can control the pot. If we call the flop, then we also have to call both turn and river which we will lose more money.  Getting it in on this flop is fine if we're 0-15bbs as we will get looked up far more often by draws, weak Ace and possibly KQ but as we're 50bb stacks we're NEVER getting looked up by a worse hand except for QT and possibly AJ so it's -EV. If you want the thread closed just don't bother to read it, I personally think this hand is a very good hand for discussion.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    Lol suggest raising to see where u are at on 2+2 and see what response you get

    There is no guarantee someone who flats flop raise wont lead turn, especially when he has donk led pot on flop

    How does raising control the pot? 

    Why do we have to call down if we call flop? I would be calling down but I don't see why if you want to play scared you would have to

    I think you can get it in v worse, if you don't then just flat flop

    We raise the flop as a bluff or for value.. I assume you agree it's to strong to bluff, if you are raising for value folding to a 3bet is terrible without really strong reads that he flats wide and raises very narrow, unlikely with these stacks
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  • Herbie536Herbie536
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Can i get away from this??:
    Hand History #558754097 (22:49 31/08/2012) Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance raivim Small blind   1000.00 1000.00 44923.00 bloodboy Big blind   2000.00 3000.00 15284.00   Your hole cards 10 A       joker48 Call   2000.00 5000.00 84057.25 smarr Raise   4000.00 9000.00 100701.50 DoubleAAA Fold         raivim Fold         bloodboy Fold         joker48 Call   2000.00 11000.00 82057.25 Flop     A 10 Q       joker48 Bet   11000.00 22000.00 71057.25 smarr All-in   100701.50 122701.50 0.00 joker48 All-in   71057.25 193758.75 0.00 smarr Unmatched bet   18644.25 175114.50 18644.25 joker48 Show K J       smarr Show 10 A       Turn     8       River     5       joker48 Win Straight to the Ace 175114.50   175114.5
    Posted by smarr
    I had almost identicle situation last week and i did the same as you, in einsight i would do things very different as i had ACE 10 to ACE Q the flop was ACE Q TEN so i pushed and snap called by the bigger 2 pair, ive tried to convince myself it was unavoidable but on reflection i think thats wrong, what makes my situation worse i was on the bubble of the 4k bounty hunter and was in 4th or 5th place at the time with good stack- my opponent unfortunately was 2nd in chips and had around 3k more than me so out i went, i think i just looked at my hands point of view and didnt give my opponants range enough consideration, the up side is i wont be doing that in the future
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    In Response to Can i get away from this?? : I had almost identicle situation last week and i did the same as you, in einsight i would do things very different as i had ACE 10 to ACE Q the flop was ACE Q TEN so i pushed and snap called by the bigger 2 pair, ive tried to convince myself it was unavoidable but on reflection i think thats wrong, what makes my situation worse i was on the bubble of the 4k bounty hunter and was in 4th or 5th place at the time with good stack- my opponent unfortunately was 2nd in chips and had around 3k more than me so out i went, i think i just looked at my hands point of view and didnt give my opponants range enough consideration, the up side is i wont be doing that in the future
    Posted by Herbie536
    You hit the nail on the head and it's what I was getting at earlier in the thread.  We have to consider our opponents range and we also have to factor in how many BBs we have.  Seeing upon how both players are deep this is too much of a risky board to be stacking off on. 

    I could go in depth further and start to see how much our equity is at this stage of the tournament if we were to gain villians chip stack and obviously if we lose we have zero equity.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited September 2012
    raise little more pre 4600-5100 or something

    flat flop, shove turn

    don't mind raising flop smallish for oopo to shove all 1 pr + draw hands + worse

    bit of a cooler, not hero folding 2 prs
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  • Herbie536Herbie536
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : Really? Thanks for clarifying. Some people would call with a gutshot. And as always when analysing a hand i was merely pointing out POSSIBLE hands that MAY CONSIDER calling, not hands that he actually has. And i think the money has to go in, i was just querying the shove.
    Posted by died
    Nobody would concider calling an all in bet with K9 on this flop, no way no how
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this??:
    In Response to Re: Can i get away from this?? : You hit the nail on the head and it's what I was getting at earlier in the thread.  We have to consider our opponents range and we also have to factor in how many BBs we have.  Seeing upon how both players are deep this is too much of a risky board to be stacking off on.  I could go in depth further and start to see how much our equity is at this stage of the tournament if we were to gain villians chip stack and obviously if we lose we have zero equity.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    People are considering villains range

    Raise/folding flop is awful imo, I can't think of any realistic range/villain tendencies it's optimal against without really cast iron reads. Folding to the donk would make more sense to me. Raising flop seems esp weird if you are not putting anymore money in on turn or river

    As for calculating our equity, there is not enough info in op to do this. But I doubt Icm would be a big factor unless we are very close to bubble or payout is very flat.  But if you have calcs that say different I would be interested to see them. 
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited September 2012
    Hi guys

    Well this post has certainly proved an interesting one and there are certainly a few ays to approach it. There's been a lot of good inciteful analysis which the poster will be grateful for, i'm sure. However, let's all try to keep calm under adversity eh, guys. Surely we can disagree with someone without trying to be demeaning.
    For what its worth and i did read quite a few posts i think a bigger raise is needed pre as i would just call the min raise. This may make him fold this hand. If he continues and bets then i'd call the flop. The turn and a big bet by him presumably would make my mind up for me. KJs, J8s stands out once the Turn comes and his bet size may hint at that.
    If he's only been playing with strong hands and/or limping into pots(as some players do at HBL) then maybe alarms should be going here.
    Anyway, there's a lot of good discussion here guys. Don't let disagreement be a 'stake through the heart'...its only another opinion. Cheers
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  • SlykllistSlykllist
    edited September 2012

    I'm interested in this one now after reading through all the replies.

    2 very good players have recommended flatting the flop and shoving the turn which I can't understand, the board is pretty wet and we've flopped very well, why would you flat the flop and allow another card which might complete any number of draws?  For me if the mindset is to get it in on the turn, surely better to just get it in on the flop before allowing another card out?

    Personally I think I prefer a raise on the flop and reassess on the turn, but very hard to get away from this without losing alot of chips.

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