What do you do here?

bearlyther

layerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceSJspanky1Small blind £0.25£0.25£45.11phil12ukBig blind £0.50£0.75£71.24 Your hole cardsJJ   ............Raise £1.50£2.25£48.58julie59Fold    rurarixFold    bearlytherCall £1.50£3.75£47.75SJspanky1Fold    phil12ukCall £1.00£4.75£70.24Flop  101010   phil12ukCheck    ............Bet £3.56£8.31£45.02bearlytherCall £3.56£11.87£44.19phil12ukFold    Turn  5   ............Bet £8.90£20.77£36.12      

SJspanky1

Honest answer??

 I really don't know........

DOHHHHHHH

Apparently most players define their hand on the river, so u can call again here and fold river when they jam

percival09

readless I'm calling ott and folding otr. I think his triple barreling range is narrower than his double barreling range. saying that, I doubt this guy is bluffing even on the flop 3 way, and betting the turn again with a lower pair or even 2 overs, meh, I still call. 

IDONKCALLU

gazebo theory people can never fold full houses id call down 

TommyD

Call turn.

Call a lot of rivers, fold some.

If river is a Jack then dance a jig and jam.  If you do this and they have the case ten, post in Area 51

percival09

villain ever 3barreling with worse/bluffing? ofc i have no reads so i'm just guessing.. 

liamboi11

utg raise pre then fires flop and turn I really dunno I think fold prob best but vs some opponents I call turn and call river unless an ace or king falls on the river.

bearlyther

I folded the turn not sure if i was right or not but i think opponant has a very narrow range which i thought was qq,kk or aa here.  Then again he could still easily barrell the turn with 8s or 9s for value thinking il call with ace high.  I just didnt think it was a good spot to get involved in.

jugglegeek

Why has nobody mentioned 3-betting pre-flop? We have JJ on the button, Why not 3-bet pre? Take the initiative going to the flop.

If the villian still shows strength after a 3-bet pre-flop then we can fold without a second thought.

LOL_RAISE

i really like flatting pre tbh

bearlyther

In Response to Re: What do you do here?:

Why has nobody mentioned 3-betting pre-flop? We have JJ on the button, Why not 3-bet pre? Take the initiative going to the flop. If the villian still shows strength after a 3-bet pre-flop then we can fold without a second thought.
Posted by jugglegeek

If i 3 bet i am folding out worse hands that i want to stay in with me and if he 4 bets hes never 4 bet bluffing im happy to play down the streets.  I would be happy to 3bet if i thought he would come back over the top with a light 4 bet with my image.

TommyD

Does flatting instead of 3Betting pre, therefore completely under-representing our hand, mean we have to call down on this sort of board?

Surely a villain is happily vbetting 77-99 as well as trying to take us off the baby pairs that litter our range when they have air?

I think we have to at least see the river.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: What do you do here?:

Does flatting instead of 3Betting pre, therefore completely under-representing our hand, mean we have to call down on this sort of board? Surely a villain is happily vbetting 77-99 as well as trying to take us off the baby pairs that litter our range when they have air? I think we have to at least see the river.
Posted by TommyD

agree! i am never folding the turn here against this player

bearlyther

In Response to Re: What do you do here?:

Does flatting instead of 3Betting pre, therefore completely under-representing our hand, mean we have to call down on this sort of board? Surely a villain is happily vbetting 77-99 as well as trying to take us off the baby pairs that litter our range when they have air? I think we have to at least see the river.
Posted by TommyD

Yes think you are right thinking over it should have called down given how i played the hand pre.  99% of the time im always calling here something just didnt feel right against this player but yea i agree its a call.

FlashFlush

Agree with Tommy. The way you have under-rep'd your hand we need to at least see the river and possibly showdown. If we had 3bet pre and the villain takes this line then it's an easy fold.

percival09

agreed with seeing the river. 

i have no info on villain like others seem to have so I think calling ott and folding to almost any good size bet otr is fine

TPTP123

If i 3 bet i am folding out worse hands that i want to stay in with me and if he 4 bets hes never 4 bet bluffing im happy to play down the streets.  I would be happy to 3bet if i thought he would come back over the top with a light 4 bet with my image.

You should 3betting a value range of at least TT+,AQ+ in this spot.. possibly even some suited Aces that give you blockers depending on the player, Unless his opening ridic wide range UTG.  Keeping in his weaker UTG hands is pretty flawed, what is his UTG range.... 

 

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: What do you do here?:

You should 3betting a value range of at least TT+,AQ+ in this spot.. possibly even some suited Aces that give you blockers depending on the player, Unless his opening ridic wide range UTG.  Keeping in his weaker UTG hands is pretty flawed, what is his UTG range....   
Posted by TPTP123

pls explain

percival09

yes pls explain +1

TPTP123

Whats a standard UTG opening range? What worse hands can we keep in this range by flatting instead of 3betting, that don't call a 3bet?

Then ask the same 2 questions to a late position open/steal... Blind(us) v BN/CO or BN(us) v CO. This us when you should be flatting to keep in worse hands because your giving villain more rope to make a mistake when we have a prem hand. 

Our 3bet range is irrelavent, i used a value stacking off range for generic villains. Obv we tailor our 3bet range depedning on villains.. 

percival09

well its hard to give an utg range without any info on the player opening. villain will probs fold 22-1010 to a 3bet when he's oop, definitely like A9-AJ, he might flat AQs or something, he's either flatting or 4betting QQ/AK. He's also folding out hands like J10, JK, hands that we have crushed and if we hit the case J then we could scoop a big pot.

We need villain to call our 3b enough of the time to make it more +ev than calling for when he 4bets and we more than likely have to fold. 

I'm not even saying 3betting is bad here, but that's with the right reasoning, and I don't think you're using the right reasoning

percival09

and also lol at your late position comment. Not trying to be rude but that's pretty ridic.

TPTP123

Well you +1 asked me to explain and then lol, nice, thats not rude? I delib worded my reply to entice a +ev discussion, really trying hard here not to flame but ur post kinda makes that difficult for me. I'll be nice tho.. my reasoning is more calculated then you think. 

Whats a standard UTG opening range? What worse hands can we keep in this range by flatting instead of 3betting, that don't call a 3bet? Your not answering this... also using 1010 instead of TT is flawed logic. 

Its not difficult to apply an UTG range, its like 11-15% of hands for an ok-reg and less then ~20% for bad ones. (if its a fish we don't need to worry about him folding worse hands to a 3bet as he'll still call with bags).  Try again and we'll discuss it further. 

percival09

You can interpret my posts in whatever way you wish, but I can assure you they weren't intended to be rude, and whichever way you look at it I'm posting a reply regarding the analysis of a hand: not for any other reason.

Whats a standard UTG opening range? What worse hands can we keep in this range by flatting instead of 3betting, that don't call a 3bet?

Ok, a standard utg opening raise from a tag player is probs 22+ A9s+ A10o+ J10s+ (maybe 89s, 109s) KQo+ .. maybe like KJo. Applying this range and assuming there is ZERO dynamics and ppl are readless, I'd say a good tag player is folding nearly everything, perhaps calling TT, JJ AQs, either calling or 4betting AKo/AKs, either calling to trap w/ QQ+ or 4betting. Therefore, assuming villain is ok it's a pretty easy flat pre. Vs a fish ofc i'm 3betting all day

percival09

giving him a generous 3b calling range/4betting range of AQs+ AKo+ 1010+ we have 44% equity. Therefore imo it's more +ev to keep all his hands in.

TPTP123

No I agree you could prob be more rude if you wanted to but didn't mean to. Its cool brah. 

My actual first post wasn't to question Bearly it was more to give the person asking about 3bets some clarity on when to flat to keep in worse, i'm sure Bearly had his reasons to do it with JJ but when ppl use this term their hand typically has more equity than JJ versus a prerange. And usually villain has a wider range than ~13%. 

I think your applying too tight of a calling range imo, alot of 50nl regs are calling lighter then you think from EP and just x/folding flops. 

percival09

any good player isn't calling a readless btn 3b w/ much worse oop when opener is utg. with dynamics and late position you can expect good players to still be calling with quite a tight range, but 4betting with a wider range, either as a bluff or for value. Ofc with the more dynamics and info the players have then theres much more play, like getting pocket pairs aipf 100bb deep and all sorts of other stuff. the range ive given is for a good tag player. a bad aggro or a fish then yeah its muchwider

TPTP123

Most regs are calling wider, see for yourself. They're calling with similar hands but wider and with most of their UTG range apart from ugly broadways. 

percival09

well that'd mean, imo, that they're either not v.good regs or there's more history. Probs the latter. which doesn't apply in this debate

GELDY

calm down, calm down.

good comments from both of you. I'm learning a lot from this thread, but no reason to start slagging each other off.

for me - i'd have raised pre - i have a hand & want to define the villain's a bit better