What do you do here?

TPTP123 · October 2012

I'm calm but kiddo is doing it wrong - no one is slagging anyone off we're just sticking to our guns. But even so,

being a nit does not make someone a good player.

There's no way that I am going to argue that the players defending wider at 50nl are good solid players but for him to autobet state that anyone defending a 3bet wider then TT-JJ,AQs is not very good is utter toilet!!!!! (I'm sure he'd argue the color of the toilet water with me if he had the chance!!! I'm not being rude...) The range mentioned for a UTG 3bet caller is too faint, i mean if you open that range you have ~178 combos.

Defending *: 46 combos, 25.8%

Folding: 132 combos, 74.2%

* Group 1: JJ-TT, AQs 12 combos, 26.1% (6.7% total)

* Group 2: QQ+, AKs, AKo 34 combos, 73.9% (19.1% total)

From UTG our defending range should be more like ~40% of hands, as our UTG range should be closest to our 3bet calling range!!!!! As if we're positionally aware its out strongest range, and needs to be as we're OOP majority of the time.

Anyway, My original point w/o actually stating it was that underepping hands like JJ+,AQs,AK can be good in spots where players are playing all pairs and ALOT of Ax hands. Doing it against a tight range of 13% won't yield similar results. Next time I think I just won't bother.

As for OP post flop, what Tommy said.

percival09 · October 2012

lol. Your post seems wayyyy more childish and rude than mine imo (not like I care), but perhaps that's me being biased.

I'll try reply to your post bit by bit but my laptop is dying, so it may be cut short......

Readless, folding to a 3b with most of your utg range does not mean you're a nit. It means you're a positionally aware and recognise playing oop vs an unknown 3bet is more +ev than anything else imo. oh ****, it's dying. BRB lolol

TPTP123 · October 2012

lol. Your post seems wayyyy more childish and rude than mine imo (not like I care), but perhaps that's me being biased.

See!!! Toilet water!!!

Lol I'm actually not being childish, Im just giving you some of your own medicine lad,

percival09 · October 2012

Ok, so in continuation from my earlier post:

the whole 50nl defending thing is a bit off topic anyway. I'm talking about this hand, and in this hand assuming both players are readless, it wouldn't be optimal to call a 3bet oop with the effective stack being 100bb with less than TT. What are you doing with 22-99? Set mining? That isn't profitable. What're you doing with A9-AJs? Trying to hit a flush? Trying to flop tp? Neither of those are profitable. What are you doing with KQs? I could go on.

Our utg range probs is closest to our 3b calling range yes, but readless and at low limits you'd imagine an unknown 3betting an utg raiser has an even tighter range. Correct? Yes some players will be looser and just 3b any random ****, but as a general rule I think what I say makes sense.

Slow playing big hands is fine in certain spots yes, but my point still remains, and is the most important point in this whole debate imo: if there's a good tight player opening utg it's wayyyyyy harder for you to get value with JJ by 3betting than it is by calling. He's definitely folding out most things you have crushed, and that's for sure imo. Your post is backwards imo. Surely if a player is opening Arag and other random cra p then we should be MORE inclined to 3bet those players as theyre probs more likely to call 3bets with worse, rather than 3bet a good tight player who is opening a narrow range utg but recognises that other players will view his play as tight, and therefore will assume that if an unknown 3bets him he can pretty easily assume he's strong, and in-turn fold A9-AJ, maybe AQ, KQ, 22-99, sometimes TT, JJ.

And in reply to your comment about 'we're both sticking to our guns' and all that, it's not that at all. If I realise I'm in the wrong and the other player is giving better analysis than me then i'll hold my hands up and actually try to listen to that player, but I just don't think your analyis in this hand FOR this hand is that accurate.

And sorry if it seems I'm slagging anyone off, again, not intentional lol. I just like a good debate. Ofc some players react badly to that.

percival09 · October 2012

And also when we 3bet, if a good tight reg calls from utg. Some of the time I think he's calling with QQ cos he isn't sure where he is. And everything added up means it'll be v.tough to play vs an unknown in a 3bpot in THIS spot, even in position.

percival09 · October 2012

And also if we 3bet a loose utg opener with JJ, we can decide to 3b/5b instead of 3b/f which we would be doing if this tight player 4bet us.

TPTP123 · October 2012

In Response to Re: What do you do here?:

Ok, so in continuation from my earlier post: the whole 50nl defending thing is a bit off topic anyway. I'm talking about this hand, and in this hand assuming both players are readless, it wouldn't be optimal to call a 3bet oop with the effective stack being 100bb with less than TT. What are you doing with 22-99? Set mining? That isn't profitable. What're you doing with A9-AJs? Trying to hit a flush? Trying to flop tp? Neither of those are profitable. What are you doing with KQs? I could go on.

You did go on,

The point is, your perspective is completely inward... its seems to me like you think that everyone thinks about these spots exactly the same way you do, when I clearly know from experience thats not the case. Watch some 50nl and look out for some spots like this or record some mastercash or something.. i dunno.. players will be calling 3bets with 22-99, JTs, A5s... your just giving them too much credit and presuming that all regs are solid and playing the way the poker videos are tellin you play.

When you say things like readless or dynamic; its an excuse to fill in the grey ambigious areas with something black & white. Having those blurry greys spots is the makeup of the game.. its okay to not know something every now and then and go with your gut.

BTW, I react just fine thanks and I havent taken offence to anything. I'm happy just grinding my session out and enjoying your effort.

percival09 · October 2012

Readless or dynamic to fill grey areas? such lol. Read through my posts again and I think you'll find not. In fact it's kinda absurd then you'd even suggest that. Like I mentioned earier, I don't mind not knowing it all, but the fact is you're not really giving a convincing argument.

Anyway, back to the hand, you know, that thing that we're debating on.

So, because some players call 3bets with 27o, it means all players do? That's pretty much what you just said.

AND I didn't say 3betting is bad, I said your reasoning was bad. And what you've just said in that one post makes more sense than all of your other posts put together. It seems to me you've just completely ditched your earlier argument.

edit: just reread your comment and mustve been slightly tired when replying (well, I still am lol) . regarding your black and white comment, yes i do think it's important to go with your gut sometimes, but I still think it's good having some reasoning and a plan

LOL_RAISE · October 2012

you make some good points about when to flat premiums vs EP or late opens etc. but the reason i wouldnt 3bet JJ here isn't mainly to do with that, it's just because against ~90% of the regs ive played against on sky it's going to be -ev to 3b/5b JJ, and i really dont like 3b/folding nice hands

grantorino · October 2012

Flat pre best readless imo, 3betting can obv be fine

Call turn

If he triple barrells it's a tough one,prob fold. Vbet small if he checks river

TPTP123 · October 2012

Flatting JJ here as a default readless play is bad, all those horrid postflop spots your all self inflicting on your winrate!! It's soo flawed... unreal. Your choosing to make things harder... nice.

By 3betting we define ranges. By flatting we play overpairs, overcards TPTKs, underpairs that flop sets, and... oh i give up... I tried. I won't bother again.

bearlyther · October 2012

Against a fish i am 3 betting jacks all day long here and a very wide range of hands for value and also inferior hands as i can get them to fold tons to hands on the flop and later streets. For a reg to be peeling a 3bet out of position with hands like kj ,kq qj q10 8s and down is pretty bad in my opinion its either a 4 bet or a fold. When i smooth called with jacks in this hand if i 3 bet he is folding all of these hands possibly even aq and if he 4 bets i know hes never 4 bet bluffing so there is no value in 3 betting. There is 1 50nl grinder who is quite aggro like myself and sometimes we get into 3 and 4betting each other very light and jacks would definately be a great time to 3 bet against this player as i know he is capable of a light 4bet as he knows im quite aggro. Back to discussing the hands he wont call oop with to a 3 bet i dont like calling oop with these hands and definately 4 bet them tons once in a while its good to mix up my play tho and call a 3 bet oop against the aggro player if i am prepared to make a play or a check raise on the turn given board texture but against a nit the hands mentioned above are an easy fold oop.

grantorino · October 2012

In Response to Re: What do you do here?:

Flatting JJ here as a default readless play is bad, all those horrid postflop spots your all self inflicting on your winrate!! It's soo flawed... unreal. Your choosing to make things harder... nice. By 3betting we define ranges. By flatting we play overpairs, overcards TPTKs, underpairs that flop sets, and... oh i give up... I tried. I won't bother again.
Posted by TPTP123

You post some good stuff and I think there is a decent argument for 3betting pre, but the above post doesn't make a lot of sense to me

How does 3betting avoid horrible postflop spots? We just have a more bloated pot when they occur

Raising to define ranges= I want to play my hand v a stronger range. Not a good reason to raise imo. Also we are given no reads anyway

By raising how do we avoid playing the type of hands you mention? They can still outflop us, and they won't fold the hands we really want them to fold

Whether we 3b or not depends a lot on dynamic, and how wide they flat or 4bet. Also are you 3b/f.? I'm not to sure I wanna 3b/5b v unknown here and we need to think he flats wide to make 3b/f the optimal play

LOL_RAISE · October 2012

In Response to Re: What do you do here?:

Flatting JJ here as a default readless play is bad, all those horrid postflop spots your all self inflicting on your winrate!! It's soo flawed... unreal. Your choosing to make things harder... nice. By 3betting we define ranges. By flatting we play overpairs, overcards TPTKs, underpairs that flop sets, and... oh i give up... I tried. I won't bother again.
Posted by TPTP123

you don't seem to understand. 'readless' means we dont know what villains UTG opening range is, it means we dont know what his call3b range is, or his 4b range. calling preflop might be a small mistake vs this villain once we have played with him some more and understand how he plays, but 3b/stacking off is going to be a MASSIVE mistake if this villain is someone who will just 4b/c QQ+ and fold all hands we beat except maybe TT/AQ.

you seem to say that you want to 3b pre so you can make an easier decisions later on, that is not how you should be thinking about poker

TPTP123 · October 2012

Okay, so lets do this until i'm blue in the fingers.

We flat an UTG Range with JJ to keep in worse. We're always a 2:1 dog against {QQ+,AK} and when we both flop overpairs it gets messy, ergo we're leveling ourselves.

Additionally, no one is taking into account the instances where UTG pfr, we flat and blinds come along. 4way pot with prem pair!

Lastly the below trails show how we end up doing against hands where we have more than 50% equity preflop, but then things reverse post flop. ie more horrible spots than when we 3bet.

* 1/5th of the time this happens when we flat, + his undefined nut range that has 66% equity.

* In comparison to like a 1/10th of the time when we 3bet iso, and he auto 4bet defines his nut range which is common amongst good and bad regs.

Example 1; 13% (Standard UTG range)

villain="13%" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.5

Results:

Trials	OUTFLOPPED
282641	62717 (22.19%)

Example 2; TT-88 (nit range)

villain="TT-88" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.5

Results:

Trials	OUTFLOPPED
316158	35606 (11.26%)

Example 3; TT-22, (pairs yey range)

villain="TT-22" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.5

Results:

Trials	OUTFLOPPED
257022	28995 (11.28%)

Example 4; TT-77,T9s-76s (med pairs + SCs)

villain="TT-77,Tx9x-7x6x" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.5

Results:

Trials	OUTFLOPPED
284158	26498 (9.33%)

Its only when they start calling with Suited Ax in their utg 3bet defending range that we start getting similar results closer to the first example. But no one is defending A9s unless they a regfish.

villain="tt-77,AQs-A9s" where equity(JJ, preflop) > 0.5

Results:

Trials	OUTFLOPPED
299518	45618 (15.23%)

Poker IS about making life easier for yourselves. Start thinking about everything in ranges and not specific hands

huuuuume · October 2012

In Response to Re: What do you do here?:

In Response to Re: What do you do here? : you don't seem to understand. 'readless' means we dont know what villains UTG opening range is, it means we dont know what his call3b range is, or his 4b range. calling preflop might be a small mistake vs this villain once we have played with him some more and understand how he plays, but 3b/stacking off is going to be a MASSIVE mistake if this villain is someone who will just 4b/c QQ+ and fold all hands we beat except maybe TT/AQ. you seem to say that you want to 3b pre so you can make an easier decisions later on, that is not how you should be thinking about poker
Posted by LOL_RAISE

mostly agree with this but what do you do if someone 3bets out of the blinds?

TPTP123 · October 2012

In Response to Re: What do you do here? : mostly agree with this but what do you do if someone 3bets out of the blinds?

The same thing their doing when they get bet/raised facing overpairs/sets on 952xxy flops.

Also we're never as readless as some folk are making out.. his UTG so his either posted or waited for the BB.

- 2 orbits in you should be able to make a deduction of what type of player your up against.

- 5 orbits in you should know if his a nit or tag or regfish, and start assimilating an UTG range..

- 9 orbits in you should have an idea of his agression, 3bet tendency

bugaloo · October 2012

god perci arrogance ftw

grantorino · October 2012

Tptp 123

When we both flop overpairs it's just as messy in a 3b pot, prob more
4way pot with prem pair, so what. It's not ideal but should still be profitable
I'm not sure what those figures are meant to prove. I don't doubt their accuracy, just not sure what you think they mean. Are they meant to represent opening or 3b calling range, or a mix?
Most people that posted in this thread clearly think in ranges, so not sure what that comment is about
Making life easier is not the primary concern in poker, although I think its prob ok to sacrifice a small amount of EV If you think you will make mistakes later in hand

TPTP123 · October 2012

Well I was kinda glad this thread had died off as its seems like a lost cause to me... maybe one person understands an ounce of what I am getting at and then its worth it. Otherwise I'm fine to agree to disagree, smile and move on.

There's no right answer, just different strategies/opinions/camps each to their own in the end.

But its important to just understand different perspectives... too often in this Clinic i see bandwagon posting with ten identical posts to the first reply.. no one learns from that apart from maybe the OP. I'm not saying everyone should disagree with everything but just bring some perspective to the table - if you wanna make the Clinic a stronger place and get the likes of 100nl+ players posting in here... then thats what it needs.

I.e. read a post by someone, agree/disagree, go away and challenge your own opinion with some studying, then reply. Don't just pick a camp or follow the first reg that replied. (this isn't aimed at you grantorino or perci or anyone in specific, just a general view of mine from posting here for a couple of months mainly in the 50nl+ threads).

So in response to your points..

When we both flop overpairs it's just as messy in a 3b pot, prob more

I don't think this is true, as we define 3 scenarios by 3betting:-

1) We fold out weak utg hands

3) We dominate his 3bet call range

2) UTG 4bets his nut range (like 9/10 50nl regs will be as they're all chasing points) so no decision post flop imo

The point being postflop we play a "bottled range" of his UTG opening hands; which excludes the top {QQ-AA,AK} and the bottom {Some broadways, small pairs, maybe suited connectors, etc) of this range.

I'm not sure what those figures are meant to prove. Are they meant to represent opening or 3b calling range, or a mix?

They represent a mix. 13% represents an UTG standard opening range, whatever "shape" you wanna give it.

The rest are varying 3bet call ranges and show how often villains ranges have >50% post flop but <50% preflop. ie they outflop us.

Most people that posted in this thread clearly think in ranges, so not sure what that comment is about

Maybe your right, maybe I was just pretty fed up with having to clarify every point I made in each of my posts. And felt like the topic was just being discussed on the merits/cons of JJ instead of a "3bet value range" as per my first post.

donkeyplop · October 2012

Wow my head hurts.......................................

IDONKCALLU · October 2012

seems easy answer to me if some 1 had a higher pair they would reraise preflop surely im confident your ahead here so im calling down n let the lower pairs n bluffs in

donkeyplop · October 2012

In Response to Re: What do you do here?:

seems easy answer to me if some 1 had a higher pair they would reraise preflop surely im confident your ahead here so im calling down n let the lower pairs n bluffs in
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Have a look at the hand again.

They couldn't re raise pre as the villain raised utg, then hero flats.

What do you do here?

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