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50nl thoughts against a reg

edited January 2013 in The Poker Clinic
What do you do here against a reg?

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancebearlytherSmall blind £0.25£0.25£110.19LudacrisBig blind £0.50£0.75£84.50 Your hole cardsJK   GELDYFold    ...........Raise £1.50£2.25£113.59Stewart1Fold    bearlytherRaise £4.75£7.00£105.44LudacrisFold    ............Call £3.50£10.50£110.09Flop  K28   bearlytherBet £6.00£16.50£99.44..........Raise £16.00£32.50£94.09bearlytherCall £10.00£42.50£89.44Turn  9   bearlytherCheck    ...........Bet £26.50£69.00£67.59bearlytherCall £26.50£95.50£62.94River  9   bearlytherCheck    ..........All-in £67.59£163.09£0.00
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Comments

  • edited January 2013
    Why are you 3betting pre? 
    Surely reg isn't going to call with a range that's behind equity wise to KJ. So it's not for value. IMO you really shouldn't be 3betting bluffing pre this deep especially OOP and not with a hand like KJ. It's setting you up to get owned and end up levelling yourself thorugh the streets. Polarize your 3bet range. 

    Call or fold pre. I call 200bb deep. Which ever we choose depends on regs c/o opening range (is it wide enough that KJ plays ok against it), how aggro/passive does oppo play post flop IP, how often were going to be able to outplay them, how tricky they are etc.

    As played is oppo capable of trying to take you off AA,AK maybe QQ here? Would he barrel river once youv'e called the turn with his missed draws and random air? 

    I'm gonna guess you called and he flipped the 910spades. So you were sort of right lol
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    Why are you 3betting pre?  Surely reg isn't going to call with a range that's behind equity wise to KJ. So it's not for value. IMO you really shouldn't be 3betting bluffing pre this deep especially OOP and not with a hand like KJ. It's setting you up to get owned and end up levelling yourself thorugh the streets. Polarize your 3bet range.  Call or fold pre. I call 100bb deep. Which ever we choose depends on regs c/o opening range (is it wide enough that KJ plays ok against it), how aggro/passive does oppo play post flop IP, how often were going to be able to outplay them, how tricky they are etc. 
    Posted by Curt360x27
    Yep agree with this flatting here is the best way i did stop 3 betting these hands about a month ago as it turns my hand into a bluff and i should be happy to play post flop poker so id have much prefered i flatted here like you say.
  • edited January 2013
    lol @ generalising the word 'reg'. why cant regs flat 200bb deep w/ a worse hand than KJ? pretty sure they will. even more so if they view you as aggro and spewy. in fact KJ dominates some of villains calling range. but vs a good reg i prefer 3betting hands like AJs bla bla 200bb deep so we can potentially flat a 4bet whereas w/ KJo we can't.
    i think its close to whats more profitable out of 3betting pre and flatting, i think both are ok for diff reasons vs diff opponents. cant really answer it with just the info of 'reg'

    if he's capable of raising draws otf and firing 3 barrels here then i call, if not i fold. but it depends if he's even thinking of balancing here. cos he cant fire all 3 streets all the time, he either has 22, 88, or AA, or missed draws. i doubt a lot of regs are firing 3 barrels for stacks 200bb deep w/ missed draws. but if he's aggro and capable of this then you should have had a plan to call down

    but with this limited info id say fold. i just think the board runs out too horribly for him to 3barrel missed draws, he's v.polarised

    also w/ you having Js it takes away some of his range. i think he has you beat unless he's spewing w/ air all 3 streets which i highly doubt on this board
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    lol @ generalising the word 'reg'. why cant regs flat 200bb deep w/ a worse hand than KJ? pretty sure they will. even more so if they view you as aggro and spewy. in fact KJ dominates some of villains calling range. but vs a good reg i prefer 3betting hands like AJs bla bla 200bb deep so we can potentially flat a 4bet whereas w/ KJo we can't. i think its close to whats more profitable out of 3betting pre and flatting, i think both are ok for diff reasons vs diff opponents.
    Posted by percival09
    Yes id flat a 3bet with way worse than kj in position.  Basically the reason why i think my 3 bet is bad here is because if i get 4 bet i have to fold id much rather 3 bet here with a hand like 96.  Our hand plays well postflop especially this deep and should be happy to play post flop poker.  So basically my hand is too strong to 3 bet as i want to see a flop and cant hold up to a 4 bet.
  • edited January 2013
    Like the 3bet pre. Recent discussions on the forum indicate that you are only getting 4bet by KK+ anyway so fold to 4bet is optimum with just about all hands. Yes he could have AK or KQ or AJ (or all the other hands that dominate you...) but he could also have small pps, suited connectory type hands, even hands we have dominated like JTs and he's still calling a 3bet in possition. By 3betting you go to the flop with the initiative and if you don't take down the pot pre-flop you will often take it down with a c-bet.

    Hate your play post flop. You've bassically got owned by doing all the things which people warn against when 3betting medium hands like KJ. c-bet is good but you have to have the dicipline to fold top pair to a raise otf if you are going to 3bet this hand. You need a plan post flop and you don't apear to have one any better than "I'm just going to call and see what happens...".

    On the flop the villian has one of three things in my opinion. A bigger king, a set, or a spade draw (possibly Kxss). Total air is also a slim possibility. If you are calling the flop raise it's not because you think he has a bigger king or a set so he must have a bluff/semi-bluff and therefore you have committed to calling all bets, even the inevitable river shove. Since you stand to win/lose £100 on the hand this way (vs £10 if you fold to the flop raise) you have to win the hand roughly 45% of the time or more to make this a better option.

    If you have reads then it's different. But just that "he's a reg" isn't enough to continue with the hands after the flop raise.
  • edited January 2013
    Really 3betting is not good. If we stove his range that calls our 3bet I would imagine he would have around 55-60% equity vs our hand and that's before we factor in the fact he has position on us playing over 200bb deep. 

    We can make exceptions but would need more info on the player. 
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    Hate your play post flop. You've bassically got owned by doing all the things which people warn against when 3betting medium hands like KJ. c-bet is good but you have to have the dicipline to fold top pair to a raise otf if you are going to 3bet this hand. 
    Posted by jugglegeek
    rofl always fold top pair on flop when you get raised looks like its you who is going to get owned
  • edited January 2013
    Surely you can only 3 bet this hand oop if oppo calls with worse & low-mid prs

    3 bet, c bet and hope oppo folds )

    think your only beating barreled missed draws, debatable if the river card is a great card to fire the last bullet on though
    Oppo could be just taking you to a place called "look how crafty I played AK!!"

    I think it all depends on what you think about that raise sizing on the flop

  • edited January 2013
    This is hilarious.

    How many regs at your level bluff enough of the time for you to be able to call a raise and 3brls with tp + the nut worst kicker (in terms of the hands you'll be up against)........

    ..... Let alone in a 3bet pot 200bb deep.......

    95% of them are peeling 200bbs deep ip to MAKE A SET. The only owning that you're getting is from yourself.

    edit: I don't actually mind 3betting pre but you've got to be able to click the fold button at some point. I'd expect a lot of check backs on the river as a lot of regs would assume (correctly I'm guessing) that you're not folding. So yeah, fold.
  • edited January 2013
    I think people are getting far too hung up on the hand strength here and missing the crucial question:  Is this Reg a player you want to play a 3bet pot with OOP?  Is this reg a player you want to play OOP at all?  Just looking at the names available on the table of this hand I've come up with three different ways I'd play the hand with those people in this 'reg's' spot.

    More player notes please.
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    I think people are getting far too hung up on the hand strength here and missing the crucial question:  Is this Reg a player you want to play a 3bet pot with OOP?  Is this reg a player you want to play OOP at all?  Just looking at the names available on the table of this hand I've come up with three different ways I'd play the hand with those people in this 'reg's' spot. More player notes please.
    Posted by TommyD
    Have a lot of history with the player and he knows that i constantly 3 bet wide and make some moves and a lot of the time i will probly fold to the 3rd barrell here. The thing when the board pairs on the river he will know that i know its a bad card for him to barrell again so therefore can he barrell the river because he knows i know its a bad card for him to barrell?
  • edited January 2013
    Hmmm,

    So now I have to work out how TommyD would have played if I was the villain. Fold my reraise on the flop perhaps?

    Oh to see his notes.

  • edited January 2013
    tiny hint.


    saying 'it's a reg' when it's nl50 is utterly meaningless. you removed the name so you can discuss tendencies, given that you haven't you probably either don't know any so widening your 3b will put you in tonnes of tough spots (lol bet fold flop) or if you do have reads you aren't applying them.


    try having reasons for 3betting hands rather than they did or didn't work recently. every poker hand is different and at 6 max there are always nuances for how hands will play out with the order of the player types behind you.
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    tiny hint. saying 'it's a reg' when it's nl50 is utterly meaningless. you removed the name so you can discuss tendencies, given that you haven't you probably either don't know any so widening your 3b will put you in tonnes of tough spots (lol bet fold flop) or if you do have reads you aren't applying them. try having reasons for 3betting hands rather than they did or didn't work recently. every poker hand is different and all at 6 max there always nuances for how hands will play out with the order of the player types behind you.
    Posted by beaneh
    Yep as i mentioned above i feel i should have flatted pre rather than 3 betting.
  • edited January 2013
    how would you construct your 3bet range 100bb deep here, how does it change when you become 200bb deep.


    start thinking about poker not about how to play AJo or KJo or two sixes. 
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    how would you construct your 3bet range 100bb deep here, how does it change when you become 200bb deep. start thinking about poker not about how to play AJo or KJo or two sixes. 
    Posted by beaneh
    I did stop 3 betting these hands of value but dont want to get 4 bet a couple of months ago so normally i would have been flatting here.  As i used to 3 bet these hands out of the blinds 100% of the time almost against a button raise which was a leak.
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg : I did stop 3 betting these hands of value but dont want to get 4 bet a couple of months ago so normally i would have been flatting here.  As i used to 3 bet these hands out of the blinds 100% of the time almost against a button raise which was a leak.
    Posted by bearlyther

    massive hint.


    the leak was how you played post flop.




    sky poker is like the matrix.


    the scene were Neo is in the room upstairs in the little flat, and the kid says THERE IS NO SPOON.




    SKYPOKATHEREISNO4BET ......
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg : massive hint. the leak was how you played post flop. sky poker is like the matrix. the scene were Neo is in the room upstairs in the little flat, and the kid says THERE IS NO SPOON. SKYPOKATHEREISNO4BET ......
    Posted by beaneh
    Im lost here as i have never seen this movie!
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg : Im lost here as i have never seen this movie!
    Posted by bearlyther


    if you haven't seen matrix you wont win at poker.

    You need to know which pill to take, RED or BLUE.
  • edited January 2013
    no 50nl reg is capable of making a 200BB bluff.

    at a guess he has pocket 8s 

    PEOPLE ON SKY DO NOT BLUFF
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    no 50nl reg is capable of making a 200BB bluff. at a guess he has pocket 8s  PEOPLE ON SKY DO NOT BLUFF
    Posted by bolly580
    I wasn't value betting 8s!!! ha.

    Nah only joking, I agree bearly fwiw, I get owned everytime when I try 50nl because I call down too much. 

    Bad folds > Bad calls?  Prob not a very cool theory nowardays :(
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg : I wasn't value betting 8s!!! ha. Nah only joking, I agree bearly fwiw, I get owned everytime when I try 50nl because I call down too much.  Bad folds > Bad calls?  Prob not a very cool theory nowardays :(
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    why don't you just pay me for coaching and you'll be crushing NL50 in max 45 mins rofl
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg : I wasn't value betting 8s!!! ha. Nah only joking, I agree bearly fwiw, I get owned everytime when I try 50nl because I call down too much.  Bad folds > Bad calls?  Prob not a very cool theory nowardays :(
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    ha well was guna say in the post theres like a select few people who bluff on sky. But against a lot of 50nl grinders propably a flop fold.

    Also you post a "is this a good bluffing spot" post on the forum like once a week how I can i fold top top v you lol 

    at 50nl people who could bluff here when I used to play it Beaneh, Curt360, Jackl and Sam1986 when he plays this low.

    If you think im calling v Gerrard9/Ludacris better chuck yourself out a window right now
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg : why don't you just pay me for coaching and you'll be crushing NL50 in max 45 mins rofl
    Posted by beaneh
    No coaching is required for DOHHHH thanks 
  • edited January 2013
       Was u raising pre,to take down the pot,or for information,or for value if you hit ?
       I say information,if he 4 bets you then fold.how well does your opponent know you.

       The flop,your opponent at this level is expecting a c-bet,from yourself,so he takes control by re- raising,
       now when u flat his raise,he still has control,u check the turn,you defo give him control,not unless you think your ahead,when he bets again you flat again.

       The river,you check again,and he then shoves,taking all play away from you now.


       Why not re-raise the flop ?
       if he calls at least you know where u are,or at least a better idea.If he then re-raises u fold.

      personaly i would have liked a chk raise on the flop.

      when u check the turn,and flat his bet, are you hoping to get to a showdown with the remains of your stack,hoping it goes chk,chk on river.
      
    you check the river,ur hand is only beating a bluff in my opion,so is he bluffing ?

      Your opponent has played the hand well,as he has put pressure on you on every street,where as you on the other hand have been very passive,you have not asked any questions ,so you recieved no answers.

    This is a good example of the power of position,if you play out of positon,you have to take position away from your opponent and gain control of the hand,unless u have an absolute monster.

    So in short i chck raise the flop, if he raises i fold,if not i then lead out the turn,if called i shut up shop.

       

     
  • edited January 2013
    lol at not 3 betting kj, i dont give a s hi t if its 10-3, if we get enough folds pre, or villain in question folds a lot of flops then 3-betting is all ways fine also with slight uncertainty of villains tendencies i still prefer 3-bet to call(fold>call, fold vs unknown), i have no idea what you going on about here curt tbh.

    You clearly have a bluff catcher bearly, if i knew who this was i could have more info but its an oppo dependant scenario obv, fold flop imo vs most regs at nl50, there's only a couple that would raise that flop as a  semi bluff and fire the turn and river as a bluff, vs bad regs having a deeper stack will induce more bluffing in their game i find in general.


    EDIT:sorry not singled you out curt as you talk a lot of sense on the forum, tbf you did say more info on reg is needed to 3-bet, true but all info needed is success on 3bet to fold ratio, and c-bet (in 3-bet pot) to fold ratio.
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
       Was u raising pre,to take down the pot,or for information,or for value if you hit ?    I say information,if he 4 bets you then fold.how well does your opponent know you.    The flop,your opponent at this level is expecting a c-bet,from yourself,so he takes control by re- raising,    now when u flat his raise,he still has control,u check the turn,you defo give him control,not unless you think your ahead,when he bets again you flat again.    The river,you check again,and he then shoves,taking all play away from you now.    Why not re-raise the flop ?    if he calls at least you know where u are,or at least a better idea.If he then re-raises u fold.   personaly i would have liked a chk raise on the flop.   when u check the turn,and flat his bet, are you hoping to get to a showdown with the remains of your stack,hoping it goes chk,chk on river.    you check the river,ur hand is only beating a bluff in my opion,so is he bluffing ?   Your opponent has played the hand well,as he has put pressure on you on every street,where as you on the other hand have been very passive,you have not asked any questions ,so you recieved no answers. This is a good example of the power of position,if you play out of positon,you have to take position away from your opponent and gain control of the hand,unless u have an absolute monster. So in short i chck raise the flop, if he raises i fold,if not i then lead out the turn,if called i shut up shop.      
    Posted by thejudge10
    Why would i ever check raise the flop here makes no sense at all whats are plan if i check raise and he comes over the top are you looking to get it in!.  Of course im checking the turn and river as he has the iniative in the hand makes no sense for me to come leading out on the turn or river dont know why you would ever lead here.  Betting and raising for information is old school poker and is not part of todays game.  And if we check raise the flop and get called why would we ever lead the turn?
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to Re: 50nl thoughts against a reg:
    If you think im calling v Gerrard9/Ludacris better chuck yourself out a window right now
    Posted by bolly580
    Ha lol definately wasnt 1 of these 2 i may have folded a full house in this spot!
  • edited January 2013
    you chk raise the turn,to try and win the pot there and then,you are showing strength,if they come over the top,then easy you fold,if  they just flat u lead out the turn, to get the drawing hands to fold,if they call,you then are pretty sure your behind.

    Now you say that the opponent has the iniative,you should be trying to take away his advantage of position,and trying to win the hand.

    The way it was played the only time you tried to take control and win the hand,was pre.

    this way you have tried,to win the hand down the streets,at a cost effective way,as oppposed to the way it was played.

    It also makes your decisions alot easier.

    we all play differentley,and are willing to learn.

    This is how i would have played the hand,and tried to explain my reasoning,it may be flawed,and these flawes will be explained thru posts like this,then i myself can take something away from this post.

    Did u have a plan once the flop came down ?
  • edited January 2013
    That's slander bolly i'm not happy about that, i'm a nit I play 24+ tables ffs don't have time between folding to bluff!!
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