Primo deep decision pre flop

beaneh

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop:

Hi Beaneh Just loved that detailed mathematical post thugh some points i didn't undersand because of my level of 'thickness'. Just shows how little i know but appreciate your efforts. Ty very much as there was a lot to take in.
Posted by profman15

are there any bits you still don't understand?

np.

GELDY

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop:

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop : this isn't particularly indepth, what happens when we flop 2nd pair? :---p
Posted by beaneh

presumably this is where being oop is going to make life harder for us.......

would it be fair to generalise the situation as:

c/r on a dry board, c/f on a wet one if we have no easy draws?

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop:

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop : are there any bits you still don't understand? np.
Posted by beaneh

 Hi B

I was just trying to check these values but not sure how the range were made up. eg A?+, K?+ etc. What are they and the others please.
Also the same with the 3bet/jam range please. So u r saying that KT has 50 odd % equity  v opps range after 3 bet range has been taken away from KT's initial range?

Sorry if this comes across as a bit naive.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop:

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop : presumably this is where being oop is going to make life harder for us....... would it be fair to generalise the situation as: c/r on a dry board, c/f on a wet one if we have no easy draws?
Posted by GELDY

yes we have to act first, and have to consider that before we do any calling preflop. 

if we flop mid pair do we just c/shove, or do we c/call?

essentially continue when we hit the board, the more we hit it the easier it is to get it in correctly, so we want to focus our thinking on the times when we only marginally connect.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop:

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop :  Hi B I was just trying to check these values but not sure how the range were made up. eg A?+, K?+ etc. What are they and the others please. 

Posted by profman15

Hi der P,

What i've done is go into pokerstove, select a hand range by lots of clicking then initially just run the equity vs KTo, then vs a range of hands we could likely play here.

For you to do some of this stuff, just download pokerstove it's free, mess about with the ranges and see what the numbers come out as. I specifically choose extreme ranges to try to show the differences in the sort of results you will get. 

There is a specific way of writing down a range distribution involving mentioning the bottom of a part of the range of hand strenghts and then assuming anything better than that hand value is also played. So obviously 22+ means you play a pair of twos, pair of threes all the way to Aces. 

You must remember that technically all in A2o is ahead of 67s but to then get 100bb in it's alot easier much of the time with 67s because of it's playability when compared to A2o. Hence sometimes i'd rather select T8s to open than A3o etc.

Quote

Also the same with the 3bet/jam range please. So u r saying that KT has 50 odd % equity  v opps range after 3 bet range has been taken away from KT's initial range? Sorry if this comes across as a bit naive.

What I specifically said was that vs a very tight range KTo doesn't have enough equity to call with the odds we were getting. When you start adding in more pairs, more Ace high, more King high hands, more broadways etc, our equity starts to increase to the point where we can profitably call and play fit or fold, ie we hit and we continue or we don't.

To get a rough idea of the distributions I was using, take the percentage number in the  bracket, denoting what percentage of all the possible hands dealt the selection we are opening comprises of. Enter that in the pokerstove selection area window (open stove, click 'player1' move to the preflop tab to enter specific hands, and enter the figure in the bottom right) stove will then highlight the top 'x%' of hands by hot or cold (ie high card not playability). You can even select suited hands only by certain suits etc for post flop fd analysis and stuff.

What I then went on to reference, was that we should be thinking about our call in terms of what hands are we calling and how do all those hands together play versus the range of hands we think our opponent is making his open raise with. I was advocating calling with many of the hand we continue with, I mention 3betting or 3bet jamming hands like 88 because they lose so much value seeing flops as they have poor visibility ie you don't know what cards you do/don't want to see roll out. 

So I said imagine a 16% ish calling range, including Aces, strong broadways, big aces and potentially a couple of small sooted hands. This can then be analysed versus the range for opening we assigned our opponent. Comparing the range versus range equity rather than the specific what hand do we hold what hand do they hold equity value is much more important and helpful. In the given example we saw that our 16% peeling range had roughly 52% versus our opponents percieved opening range.

Does that make sense, i'm not sure if i've focused enough on exactly what you said or whether that ramble should have described it well enough.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop:

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop: Hi der P, What i've done is go into pokerstove, select a hand range by lots of clicking then initially just run the equity vs KTo, then vs a range of hands we could likely play here. For you to do some of this stuff, just download pokerstove it's free, mess about with the ranges and see what the numbers come out as. I specifically choose extreme ranges to try to show the differences in the sort of results you will get.  There is a specific way of writing down a range distribution involving mentioning the bottom of a part of the range of hand strenghts and then assuming anything better than that hand value is also played. So obviously 22+ means you play a pair of twos, pair of threes all the way to Aces.  You must remember that technically all in A2o is ahead of 67s but to then get 100bb in it's alot easier much of the time with 67s because of it's playability when compared to A2o. Hence sometimes i'd rather select T8s to open than A3o etc. Quote Also the same with the 3bet/jam range please. So u r saying that KT has 50 odd % equity  v opps range after 3 bet range has been taken away from KT's initial range? Sorry if this comes across as a bit naive. What I specifically said was that vs a very tight range KTo doesn't have enough equity to call with the odds we were getting. When you start adding in more pairs, more Ace high, more King high hands, more broadways etc, our equity starts to increase to the point where we can profitably call and play fit or fold, ie we hit and we continue or we don't. To get a rough idea of the distributions I was using, take the percentage number in the  bracket, denoting what percentage of all the possible hands dealt the selection we are opening comprises of. Enter that in the pokerstove selection area window (open stove, click 'player1' move to the preflop tab to enter specific hands, and enter the figure in the bottom right) stove will then highlight the top 'x%' of hands by hot or cold (ie high card not playability). You can even select suited hands only by certain suits etc for post flop fd analysis and stuff. What I then went on to reference, was that we should be thinking about our call in terms of what hands are we calling and how do all those hands together play versus the range of hands we think our opponent is making his open raise with. I was advocating calling with many of the hand we continue with, I mention 3betting or 3bet jamming hands like 88 because they lose so much value seeing flops as they have poor visibility ie you don't know what cards you do/don't want to see roll out.  So I said imagine a 16% ish calling range, including Aces, strong broadways, big aces and potentially a couple of small sooted hands. This can then be analysed versus the range for opening we assigned our opponent. Comparing the range versus range equity rather than the specific what hand do we hold what hand do they hold equity value is much more important and helpful. In the given example we saw that our 16% peeling range had roughly 52% versus our opponents percieved opening range. Does that make sense, i'm not sure if i've focused enough on exactly what you said or whether that ramble should have described it well enough.
Posted by beaneh

Cheers B

Very kind of you to take time out. Actually i Have poKerstove plus another called pokercruncher on my ipad which i use more. It's very very weird but the exact same range shows up as 28.4% on pokerstove and 26.9% on pokercruncher 55+, A2S+, K5S+, Q7S+, J8S+,T8S+,98S+, A7+,K9+,Q9+,J9+. No wonder the equities didn't show as correct. I understand the way of describing the range and the playability side of certain hands too. You've explained it very well. TY.

beaneh

no probs, the discrepancy you'll see will be the two programs opinions as it were as to what hands are 'the best'.

:-)

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop:

no probs, the discrepancy you'll see will be the two programs opinions as it were as to what hands are 'the best'. :-)
Posted by beaneh

And there's me thinking that it referred to the fraction of the whole but just realised more ways of getting certain hands isn't there(combinatorics). God i'm stupid but small steps eh? Cheers again B....i certainly learn a lot from your detailed posts....a lot like "Winning T's 1HAAT" books...nice one.

scotty77

First of all I want to say sorry if I offended you.  That is never ever my intention as I am just a poker player who says what I see.  I am not perfect and make mistakes, while both playing and analysing, and that is why I love the game in that there is always something to learn.

Onto the hand.  Yes looking at it now probably jamming 20bb is a bit extreme but I feel that peeling is also the wrong way to go too.  The stack size was very awkward.  Yes you did get your chips in as a huge favourite but that shouldn't really matter as we are playing the long game in poker and not one hand at a time.

I feel that the comment that I hvae 'favourites' is wrong tho.  I can vividly remember hands involving all the names that you mentioned that I have said have been played poorly/wrong and I am sure people will back me up on this...on the show the same night I said that Matt Bates played a hand wrong....this is someone who I have had more than a few drinks with at SPTs/Vegas and we chat a lot at the tables/twitter/facebook/forum etc.

I try to be as fair as possible when analysing.  Also remember that the hands are shown with no prep time, I see them the same time as the viewers do and getting all the pieces of the 'information' that may have been happening at the table during the last hour or so just isn't possible.  I see the hands in a vacuum but I try and offer advice that isn't in a vacuum and allows for people to think about more general strategy rather than hand to hand which means that the commentry that I make and the results of the hands often doesn't tally up.

joesman1

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop:

First of all I want to say sorry if I offended you.  That is never ever my intention as I am just a poker player who says what I see.  I am not perfect and make mistakes, while both playing and analysing, and that is why I love the game in that there is always something to learn. Onto the hand.  Yes looking at it now probably jamming 20bb is a bit extreme but I feel that peeling is also the wrong way to go too.  The stack size was very awkward.  Yes you did get your chips in as a huge favourite but that shouldn't really matter as we are playing the long game in poker and not one hand at a time. I feel that the comment that I hvae 'favourites' is wrong tho.  I can vividly remember hands involving all the names that you mentioned that I have said have been played poorly/wrong and I am sure people will back me up on this...on the show the same night I said that Matt Bates played a hand wrong....this is someone who I have had more than a few drinks with at SPTs/Vegas and we chat a lot at the tables/twitter/facebook/forum etc. I try to be as fair as possible when analysing.  Also remember that the hands are shown with no prep time, I see them the same time as the viewers do and getting all the pieces of the 'information' that may have been happening at the table during the last hour or so just isn't possible.  I see the hands in a vacuum but I try and offer advice that isn't in a vacuum and allows for people to think about more general strategy rather than hand to hand which means that the commentry that I make and the results of the hands often doesn't tally up.
Posted by scotty77

I'm assuming its me you are referring to. I can assure you I wasn't the slightest bit offended. I just wanted to offer my side of the story, and reasoning for my actions in the hand in question. I didn't expect such a huge response/debate. Though that said, it's made for a very interesting read. 

joesman1

Also, can I add that I NEVER accused you of having 'favourites'. That would be an accusation I couldn't prove. I merely said that if a well known/respected 'name' on the site had made the same play, quite often it would be seen in a different light

beaneh

In Response to Re: Primo deep decision pre flop:

Also, can I add that I NEVER accused you of having 'favourites'. That would be an accusation I couldn't prove. I merely said that if a well known/respected 'name' on the site had made the same play, quite often it would be seen in a different light
Posted by joesman1

I'm def his favourite!!