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"Hit & run" seems a bit of a sensitive subject on here right now, heaven knows why.
I feel a Blog coming on.....
Who would have thought? Tikay is the Fonz!
What you know... I dared!
Enough, all of you.
Right, a Blog coming up of my motorbike days. Your own fault.
It was true - no crash helmets were required in those days.
I'm not taking anything away from benny's ability, as O8 and Stud 8 are games I have little, and no, expierience in respectively, what i am saying is that his outlook on cash games, in general, is flawed.
Saying that he doesn't understand poker wasn't really meant to pertain to his skill level, cuz i mean, i know nothing of that, just his general thoughts on cash games, and how variance works etc.
But a degree of ability IS required to survive for a long time, & the old-timers have ticked that box. The majority of Online youngsters I know - & I say this with some care, & knowledge of the facts - borrow heavily (that is to say, are staked) to play poker. I know - personally, amongst a small group of peeps I know - of over half a million sterling of "make-up". Which is simply staggering.
They may be better, the youngsters, but if they are, how come they need staking, & old-timers (those I know) would not touch staking with a bargepole?
I don't think the "old-school" arguments is as cut & dried as many think. Many of the younger players do the monkey see monkey do things, with fancy-dan moves, bizarre street-cred poker lingo, & Level 4 nonsense. But nobody has ever proven to me that it works better than straight up & down abc stuff.
You may be right. We shall never know. But the argument has been in progress since I began playing, which was about the time Poker started on the Internet. And I'm still getting by.
I think ABC has it's place upto about 50NL online and, from what i've been told, 1kNL live, but above that alot of the TAG players get absolutely abused by regs as their ranges are so polarised and, since there are more regs now with the legistlation, alot of TAG players online are pretty much rakeback pro's.
Most of the big winners have these "fancy" plays in their arsonal, and I'd say that over such a large sample size, it's pretty much proven to be the optimal style for the game AT THE MOMENT, if you play well post flop.
That said, TAG obviously has it's place in some games, and all strategies are dependant on game-flow, opponents etc.
However, I don;t see how it can hurt to have the ability to make these kinds of plays.
I'd rather stick needles in my eye than ever borrow a penny-piece to play poker (& "borrow" includes being staked). I can handle losing my own money, but I'd be dreadful & play scared with other's money.
To be honest, playing with my own money, & needing to "be careful", look after it, is, imo, the greatest contributror to surviving in poker.
Here's a little thing to watch for. The lairy boys, the 5-bet brigade, "I don't bet to Pass to a Raise, I call all-in with my pocket fours, it's long-term +ev", are all, almost without exception, playing with other peoples money, which is staked, borrowed or grimmed. In fact, I'll go further. Every poker grimmer I have ever met or known - & that's a lot - is a LAG or even looser. (Loser, too, if you will pardon the pun). And it's tough to beat these guys. Because they don't have to worry about tomorrows Buy-In. And that makes it easier. A LOT easier.
If poker was played without credit, staking, loans, borrowing or grimming, you'd see THE most remarkable sea-change in playing styles overnight. The market would also shrink significantly.
Fortunately, because of the stakes we mainly play at, it does not, & never will I hope, affect Sky Poker. Which may well be why I am so comfy here. Properr players playing with proper money (their own) with one goal - to have a little cheap fun. What's not to like about that?
If they could not borrow, be staked, or grim, they could not & would not be able to play so loose & fancy-free, would they?......THEN you'd see who can really play! I manage my money such that I can handle variance, & if that means playing smaller, so be it.
Rakeback Pros? I've never really understood why anyone would do that, tbh. Sit glued to a screen 12-tabling 10 hours a day to get half their rake back? And that's FUN? Well if peeps can enjoy X-Factor, I guess anything goes these days. Every rakeback pro I know is, well, a bit one-dimensional.
Fancy plays, yeah we all have a few, even me, you'll be shocked to hear. But I use them sparingly - bluffing & dancing every other hand is a kite that is never gonna fly for long.
I agree, it's good to have a few moves in your arsenal. But my very strong view is this. Poker is a simple game, & making fancy-dan moves depends on Villain doing what you want him to do. And they rarely do, because you have out-thought yourself. You ever tried to make a bad player pass? I don't care if Lairy Dancing Aggro Street Cred Lingo man is Level 4, 5, 6 or 7, he can't make a bad player make a bad call or a good Pass. Most moves are designed to get lesser (bad?) players off hands. But I've yet to meet a bad player who CAN Pass!
I'll stick to that pop group. KISS.
But each to their own, I'll buy that, too.
Thank you for the comments on my Blog, (to which I have replied) it all made sense!
I was in a Cash-Game in Vienna once - in the CCC (Concord), & fluked my way to a profit of €6,000 in the first 6 hours. I was on a trip, Vienna & Monte Carlo with Poker 425, & I had about €3,000 with me to play with.
Greed took hold, & I wanted to win more, & there was a lot of cash on the Table.
I lost a bit back, then a bit more, than some more more.
I had some other cash in my pocket to buy someone in for the Monte Carlo EPT the following week, €10,000 in crisp €500 notes.
Every time I lost my pull-up, I'd reach into my back pocket & pull-up another €500.
The game never broke for over 2 days, the longest I've ever played non-stop. Eventually, I slipped into loss. I never knew how much, I did not dare count up.
Eventually, the game broke, & I caught a cab back to my apartment, which I was sharing with Red-Dog (Tom McCready), snoopy (Adam Goulding), Jen Mason, & Matt Tyler.
The moment had arrived, I could not defer a second longer. I pulled out my "wad", & counted it. There was €5,500 there. I had begun with €13,000 (which included the buy-in for someone else at the EPT), & been €6,000 up in the first 6 hours.
So I'd managed, in total, to go from a peak of €19,000, including €6,000 profit, down to €5,500 - a net loss of €7,500, & a gross loss, if you include the "profit" I had early doors, of €13,500.
I still shudder at how bad I felt afterwards, & for many months, & I'm still scarred by it.
You only do that ONCE in your life, unless you are pretty dumb. So these days, if I get nicely ahead, I don't care a hoot about who says what, I'm gonna cut & run, unless it's a game between friends. (Though I play much smaller these days, within what I call my comfort zone).
I hope that never happens to anyone here. If it ever does, you'll know why "hit & run" never bothers me.
You gotta feel the pain to understand it. Been there, done it, regret it, learned from it.
Don't go there. Ever.
If a punter backs a winner in a Betting Shop, he has 2 choices. Lock it up, or bet again.
Which choice do you think the Bookie wants him to make?
I just think that its now considered normal to have some kind of staking arrangement. There are a couple of guys who I've staked, and vice versa.
Also another thing to remember is that older players have life experience behind them; of being broke, of doing a 9-5 job for minimum wage, of how to handle money or lending mates money to never see it again etc.
To a lot of 21 year olds, who have been playing high up for a long time, they will have never had these kind of life lessons. They've gone from their parents houses to living a fairly 'high roller' life style. The concept of the value of money is lost to them, especially if they mix with fellow poker players.
Plus if someone who is 50 or so takes down a big tournie, he is likely to already own a house/car etc. If a 24 year old does, he is less likely to have these things in place. And the 24 year old probably has sold some of his action. Therefore the tournie win can't all go back his roll, however he now has the 'celebrity' of being a high roller and will want to continue being in the spotlight.
And of course the big poker forum, where the mentality is being a baller doesn't help.
I play medium stakes both live and online and I'm down a fair bit this week. Easily 2 months wages of my friends who have normal jobs. When I think about it that way, it is pretty sick and even sicker than I am used to it and it doesn't bother me now.
EDIT: Oh and Tikay you have a lot of interesting stories, always packed with wise words. Write a book plzzzzz.
Was reading this thread earlier and I found myself thinking the exact same thing, tikay could write a compelling book on his poker life and his opinions on the game.
I actually pm'd him on the subject.
Bizarre to then read you suggesting the same thing!
Ray
Steady on, I'm blushing here!
First up, what a great & insightful Post by Scotty. All true. (Minus the PS).
As to "the Book", it's really spooky. I now have FOUR PM's in 12 hours all suggesting the same thing, & a smattering of similar comments on the Forum & blog.
I feel rather touched by it all today, tbh.
I have thought about it a few times, but ideally it'd be a "warts & all" affair, & I might not be very popular afterwards.....
Have any of you ever read the "Alan Clark Diaries". That's the style I'd want to do it in. It's all in the detail, & that's just THE greatest read. Boring Politician? Not if you read the book!
I'm sure you could do your book more in the spirit of the Alan Bennett Diaries - warts and all can still be discussed with humour and compassion.
Edit - Actually the best memoir style book I have read is Harry Thompson's Penguins Stopped Play - Harry was the television producer behind Have I got new for you and was responsible many more - Never mind the buzzcocks, Baddiel and Newman, Ali G and Monkey Dust - but his memoirs are all about his love of amateur cricket and the people he met through that side of his life. In his book he pulls no punches in delivering praise and criticism as he felt was warrented, his fair and even appraisal of events and personalities was laced with compassion, understanding and a gentle humour. Harry showed that even friends and colleagues that ultimately disappointed him still enriched his life. I cant recommend this book highly enough, a lot of Harry's style came from a simplistic honesty, a style you clearly share Tikay.
Thanks Ratty - have not read either, despite owning an extensive collection of biographies & Auto-bios.
I will get both, it may remove an obstacle, damn it.