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tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.
I check flop for deception with opponent only having £4 behind I've got 2 streets to get his stack.
TK said I should bet out on flop.
my brother said I played it fine and said,had I bet flop he would probably have folded his KJ
had he had a full stack I would have bet out around 1/2 to 3/4 pot.
I got money in good from my opponents turn bet.
yes I had to dodge some bullits.
(I actually thought i'd lost as all I could see was a club arrive.)
so my question...
had I bet flop would opponent have called?
TK said I should bet out on flop.
my brother said I played it fine and said,had I bet flop he would probably have folded his KJ
had he had a full stack I would have bet out around 1/2 to 3/4 pot.
I got money in good from my opponents turn bet.
yes I had to dodge some bullits.
(I actually thought i'd lost as all I could see was a club arrive.)
so my question...
had I bet flop would opponent have called?
| Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| supercrazy | Small blind | £0.05 | £0.05 | £19.70 | |
| x | Big blind | £0.10 | £0.15 | £4.95 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| devonfish5 | Raise | £0.30 | £0.45 | £19.65 | |
| STR1BS | Fold | ||||
| IDONKCALLU | Fold | ||||
| supercrazy | Fold | ||||
| x | Raise | £0.80 | £1.25 | £4.15 | |
| devonfish5 | Call | £0.60 | £1.85 | £19.05 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| x | Check | ||||
| devonfish5 | Check | ||||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| x | Check | ||||
| devonfish5 | Bet | £1.85 | £3.70 | £17.20 | |
| x | All-in | £4.15 | £7.85 | £0.00 | |
| devonfish5 | Call | £2.30 | £10.15 | £14.90 | |
| x | Show |
| |||
| devonfish5 | Show |
| |||
| River | |||||
| |||||
| devonfish5 | Win | Full House, 9s and Aces | £9.38 | £24.28 | |
Comments
I think I would play it exactly the same as you.
When they're really short and you know it'll be easy to get them all in by the river, then I'd still bet but will sometimes bet a little smaller than normal, obv depending on my hand strength and board texture.
Whether the opponent calls here is kinda irrelevant. Easy to see he has KJ so probably wouldn't here, but what if he has any Ax, he's never folding. At the time, we don't know what he has. There are situations where you might miss out, like say he's flopped a flush draw (and the turn doesn't come a club), he may be willing to get it all in on the flop with 2 cards to come, when he missed the turn, he might be less happy to do it.
Think about the situation, not about this particular hand.
This hand probably not, don't mind slow playing it to let our opponent improve as happened.
But as a general rule, probably better to bet to build the pot. I would have probably bet this, hoping opponent had ace, and given his stack he's not folding.
Nice hand
well I think whether he calls or not is relevant here,as I want his £4.00
had I bet and he folded his KJ then that surely makes the bet wrong,in this instance?
I get what you are saying though,that it would be better to bet in this spot most if not all of the time in the future.
ty
dev
that's what this is all about...
this hand.
i'm obviously seeing it different to most of you,which is fine,i'm learning.
yes I could have bet here and yes he could have called,but more than likely would have folded.
if he was holding an Ace,wouldn't he have bet out himself?
or would he checking for deception?
Like I say, what if he had QJcc and decided to C/C to play his FD passively. If he hits, you didn't charge him to draw, if he doesn't hit, you've missed a chance to get value, either way is bad.
Also, you've checked for deception, but then went full pot on the turn which just looks SO strong so kind of blows your deception. I'd never recommend betting this small but you could have got £1.80 in by the turn by just betting like 60p and £1.20 which looks alot less scary than, check then full pot.
betting 60p and then £1.20 would be an option,(not your choice obviously,i will add)and I might have done something like that even just a day or so ago,but that in itself goes against what I am now doing as told,to bet 1/2 pot or more at all times,so that was not an option.
looking at it again yes he could have just as easily been holding 2x club cards and made his flush on the turn,for free,so I see what you are saying about betting out on flop and charging him for that turn card.
i'm just not seeing the 'whole picture' atm,i guess.
if what i'm being told by TK yourself and others that betting out the flop is the correct play then I accept that,and will learn from how I've played it this time.and do better next time.
dev
Otherwise betting the flop is much better. You can get value from Ax, draws and maybe an underpair or 9 that thinks you're just taking a stab at the pot after they've shown weakness. The worst thing about checking without the reads mentioned above is that a card can hit the turn to make your opponent less inclined to pay you off with a raggy Ace, 9, draw, etc. Of course he could also improve to beat you but you'd expect him to c-bet the flop with any big drawing hand.
Anyway, I think the turn bet is also a problem, as Lambert has said. The problem is that you've bet so much that your opponent should never believe he has any fold equity. If you'd bet £1.10 or so on the turn you can still shove the river for a reasonable amount but he might also believe that he can get you to fold the turn, so can come over the top with just one club or even worse. When you bet £1.85 and he can only bet £2.30 more, he knows you're not going to fold.
I realise that in this hand your opponent actually did semi-bluff anyway but he made a big mistake by doing so. We shouldn't rely on our opponents making big mistakes and should focus on getting them to make lots of little mistakes.
Last thing to say is that we must never allow ourselves to be results orientated. Yes, on this occasion our opponent had KJ and would have folded to a bet on the flop but we can't afford to think that way. Against his likely range we have to think that betting the flop is the best course of action. Sometimes people fold when we don't want them to but that doesn't necessarily mean we've done anything wrong.
not even worried about FD in a 3 bet pot unless oppo 3 bet's sc from the blinds
let oppo catch up a bit, hit a two pr with a weak ace or if oppo is inducing they will bet turn
don't just check because you think oppo will not call, check because of action and you can narrow range down
what is oppo checking range on flops in 3 bet flops as PFA
bet less on turn
Hi devon.
Glad you Posted this.
My personal view is......
The result of THIS hand, THIS time, is wholly irrelevant. Whether we may, or may not, have got more, as much, or less, or even won or lost the hand is also irrelevant.
We must try & imagine that we play this identical scenario 10,000 times.
Over a proper sample size, betting the flop will be, overall, far more beneficial.
OK, we will lose our customer sometimes, & we will lose the hand sometimes, but on balance, I am convinced this is a standard situation, & we MUST bet that flop.
Just the way I see it, of course, but I do think players over-analyse SINGLE hands, when really, what we should be doing is trying to imagine the outcome over 10,000 or more hands.
We should have a default line for every standard situation, such as this. We then adjust that default depending on the opponent, situation, or table dynamic. If you had specifically adjusted in this case, fine.
Obv we play the hand over the long term, what he had this time doesnt matter, the result doesnt matter, his range and how he reacts if we bet/check do
Pre is questionable imo
I think checking flop is best. The only hands betting is better than checking against is flushdraws imo, he shouldnt 3bet a huge amount of these pre, and he'll also bet flop with them a good bit
Checking makes it easier to stack stuff like KK and allows his air a chance to improve. V a full stack I might bet, but against a half stack its a check imo
Turn bet smaller
Devon plays almost all of his poker at 5p levels, sometimes 2p-4p, sometimes 10p.
I think it essential that he follows the basic fundamentals of poker at these levels.
He can do the fancy dancing stuff if & when he wants, but I can't help with that, I just try to instil good basics, in this case......
Try to take the initiative in a hand.
Be the aggressor where possible.
Got a good hand? Bet it.
Keep it simple.
Etc.
Level 2 3 & 4 stuff is way beyond me, but I genuinely believe we should be sticking to good, solid, basic fundamentals at these levels, & try to minimise FPS.
The specific hand in question is really irrelevant, of course.
I may of course be wrong, but those are my personal views.
I am suggesting we bet small on the flop btw NColley, just think it's miles easier to stack him with 3 small bets, than to check then mash the pot button.
I know,it's great init,even got TK involved
should 'ave done it years ago. lol
seriously,ty to everyone who's posted.
I think this is pretty much done with now,
result; bet the flop smaller in future,every time.
see you on mastercash again,next week.(loving all this.)
(* *)
^
dev
Anyone even considered if betting or checking is better for our range.
As pointed out earlier across 10,000 hands. What else do you flat 3 bets with IP and if checked to - should you bet.
Now there's an argument for betting, but with no history or dynamic this kinda becomes redundant.
It's readless at micros, how do we maximise our value should be our main concern against players that only think level 1.
Seems no one has even put forward a logical argument as to why dev should bet apart from the fact that he has a big hand.
Matters a lot if dev is the PFA or not - ip or oop - and effective stack
Telling someone to just bet bet bet is bad advice imo
One thing I would say is, if your are opening or 3 betting at micro's then you do always bet.....unless you flop quads )
Think fundamental's like value betting are good to work on, but somtimes you just gotta think pokerz, what are our options and pick the correct one.
Gotta add that the biggest fundemental element missing is assigning ranges to the 3 bettor from the bb.
If your not thinking about what your oppo has than you not better than the rest at micros, ie looking at your own cards and nothing else. To beat micros you need to be at least thinking level 2.
Unfortunately for me yesterday I lost every single big hand
In the long run however you make more money this way.