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tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.

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  • NColleyNColley
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : A set vs a flush draw seems the same.
    Posted by donkeyplop
    OP called a 3 bet, you were the one 3betting

    OP was 50bb effective, you are 100bb effective
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  • Lambert180Lambert180
    edited May 2013
    OP flatted a 3bet so wasn't the aggressor. You made the 3bet so are the aggressor, that's one main difference.

    And yeah OP is v a shorty.

    EDIT ^ Sigh, beat me.
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    i would also check in this spot vs small stack most the time.. fact
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  • donkeyplopdonkeyplop
    edited May 2013
    Surely with the 2 clubs on flop you bet whatever stack they have.

    Why check when ahead, then get money in when potentially behind??

    In cash i'm betting here 100% of the time.
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    not overly worried about 2clubs tbh.. vs a 50bb stack and floppin a set i 100% wanna get the money in the middle.. if i chck and a club comes so be it im still goin with it..but to be honest doubt villan 3bets then chcks FD.. 
    im solely chcking behin as villan neva gonna call 3 with less than an ace but may spaaz or get worse in after we chck.. this hand is changes due to villan stack size and the 3bet/chck on flop, this is a clear check behin imo
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  • rancidrancid
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    Surely with the 2 clubs on flop you bet whatever stack they have. Why check when ahead, then get money in when potentially behind?? In cash i'm betting here 100% of the time.
    Posted by donkeyplop
    Do you really think oppo is 3 betting from the bb sc's and if so they aint' going to be checking after aggro factor 10 with sc's
    What percentage of oppo range consist of specifically xcxc
    with so little behind it's not even worth considering the FD to be a worry, infact a club coming is more of cue for oppo to bluff








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  • percival09percival09
    edited May 2013
    Players ever c/f on an a high flop in a 3bet pot []
    We can bet small to build the pot while still giving him sp az equity, we get value from JJ-KK which seem the most likely holdings. 

    I don't mind checking otf cos villain is short stacked in a 3bet pot, but I'm still more inclined to bet small
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    Players ever c/f on an a high flop in a 3bet pot [] We can bet small to build the pot while still giving him sp az equity, we get value from JJ-KK which seem the most likely holdings.  I don't mind checking otf cos villain is short stacked in a 3bet pot, but I'm still more inclined to bet small
    Posted by percival09
    yea but probs only one street of value from JJ-KK if that sometimes they'll jjus c/fold after A on board ...but chck , they may give  us action no??!??! seems so simple this is correct 
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    Players ever c/f on an a high flop in a 3bet pot [] We can bet small to build the pot while still giving him sp az equity, we get value from JJ-KK which seem the most likely holdings.  I don't mind checking otf cos villain is short stacked in a 3bet pot, but I'm still more inclined to bet small
    Posted by percival09
    this 100% wrong
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  • rancidrancid
    edited May 2013
    also there is good advice by Ncolley who mentions 4 betting shoving versus effective stack

    actually prefer the shove pre
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    also there is good advice by Ncolley who mentions 4 betting shoving versus effective stack actually prefer the shove pre
    Posted by rancid
    this should be standard given SS
    pre should be fold/4bet jam
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  • percival09percival09
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : this 100% wrong
    Posted by LnarinOO
    How? Why?

    I have never ever in millions of cash hands played seen somebody 3bet and then c/f on an a high flop
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  • percival09percival09
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : yea but probs only one street of value from JJ-KK if that sometimes they'll jjus c/fold after A on board ...but chck , they may give  us action no??!??! seems so simple this is correct 
    Posted by LnarinOO
    So you're saying we can get 2 streets from jj-kk if we check otf? I doubt it. If we bet the flop we're repping a lot of air too, whereas if we check the flop and then call a bet ott, or bet ourselves, it's more likely to be a hand imo
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : How? Why? I have never ever in millions of cash hands played seen somebody 3bet and then c/f on an a high flop
    Posted by percival09
    u havnt played millions of hands then cos i have seen plenty of times where someone who is playin SSP are playin fit or fold .. 
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : So you're saying we can get 2 streets from jj-kk if we check otf? I doubt it. If we bet the flop we're repping a lot of air too, whereas if we check the flop and then call a bet ott, or bet ourselves, it's more likely to be a hand imo
    Posted by percival09
    thats exactly what im sayin yea.!
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  • percival09percival09
    edited May 2013
    Ok. Thanks for providing an excellent argument.
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    Ok. Thanks for providing an excellent argument.
    Posted by percival09
    a bit childish..


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  • percival09percival09
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : a bit childish..
    Posted by LnarinOO
    Alright I haven't. Nobody ever c/f on a flop unless like, they're 3betting purely as a bluff vs a specific villain with dyamics and when called are just shutting down on most flops. I doubt this is the case because not much info has been given, it just looks like villain has JJ-KK and is scared of the A. It depends how good villain is, but in a vacuum I think we should be betting here. Still more +ev to bet otf imo because it's more unlikely that we don't have a hand, and villain might get stubborn with 2nd pair or something. Checking otf and then giving action ott is mre likely a hand than just betting otf when checked to imo

    sorry for it being highlighted :S
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    ok, but ur talkin in general again and not specific to the hand in question.. 

    in this hand we wanna play for the entire stack.. not one street of value.. i garuntee in this specific hand the best flop line is checkin,. 
    i may agree with u that playin deeper, bettin to keep air in our range or balance would be more correct 
    plus its 10nl lololol i doubt people are hand readin and overthinkin the way ur tryin to.. he prob got frisky wit KJ and missed flop... so didnt bet 

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  • percival09percival09
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    ok, but ur talkin in general again and not specific to the hand in question..  in this hand we wanna play for the entire stack.. not one street of value.. i garuntee in this specific hand the best flop line is checkin,.  i may agree with u that playin deeper, bettin to keep air in our range or balance would be more correct  plus its 10nl lololol i doubt people are hand readin and overthinkin the way ur tryin to.. he prob got frisky wit KJ and missed flop... so didnt bet 
    Posted by LnarinOO
    yeah makes sense. I guess it's what's a more likely way for us to get 2 streets, bet the flop and hope he sticks around with JJ-KK which I'm sure he will, or check and hope he picks up something ott. I mean, in this hand I think villain might just give up if the turn is a blank as well, but I think if we bet small otf then he will call, but with villain being this short I don't think checking is bad
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : yeah makes sense. I guess it's what's a more likely way for us to get 2 streets, bet the flop and hope he sticks around with JJ-KK which I'm sure he will, or check and hope he picks up something ott. I mean, in this hand I think villain might just give up if the turn is a blank as well, but I think if we bet small otf then he will call, but with villain being this short I don't think checking is bad
    Posted by percival09
    yep, and checkin flop will get 2 streets from a broader range then u would by bettin, and we only need to steets to get stack in, so id rather chck so get action from more once we flopped so big, 

    bettin to balance and get value from what i think would be a smaller range combined with the FACT he may c/f some of that range is definatly worse
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited May 2013
    Hi D
     Why would he when he only has a high card and only has back door flush to be fairly sure of winning...BUT little did he know eh!
    Nice pot D and wp though hitting the set and checking to allow opponent to catch something is fairly standard fare. Its one of those things really and its your opponent whodrives his draws(both flush and gutshot). TBH the turn card has made the pot for you and the size of his remaining stack. If he'd had the same amount as you then i suspect he'd have just called the turn as he needs to hit.
    Sorry if this doesn't really agree with people as i'm not a big cash player and wanted to give an opinion without looking at others. Keep ginding...
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  • devonfish5devonfish5
    edited May 2013
    ty profman,
    wow,who'd have thought that playing for 10-15 mins on a mc table,and posting 1 hand would cause so much debate.  lol

    haven't got much else to say that hasn't already been said,but i'll say this...
    if I could play the hand again,would I play it any differently now?

    yes. I would bet 1/2 pot on flop.
    why?to charge opponent for his draws,etc.
    would he have folded?
    yes,probably.
    would I have lost value?
    yes,this time.

    slow playing (as I did hear,does have it's place,i guess)
    is it a good play,long term?
    no.i don't think so.
    how many times do we get caught out by that river card?
    quite often,i'd say.

    yes,i won the max this time.
    but would I next time,and all the other times this hand came up?
    maybe around 50/50 i'd say,at a guess.

    anyway,just my last thoughts on it.
    ty for all the posts.
    interesting,wasn't it.  lol

    :)
    dev
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited May 2013
    Get it in pre....

    End thread

    :) 
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  • larry1959larry1959
    edited May 2013
    Lots of different advice going on here and all of it making sense. You could have the same hand against pocket A's, which puts you behind on the flop, but chances are slim. The way you play this hand really depends on your opponent(s).. and each senario is different. In this case you did the right thing (and got the result), but would have lost had any other club come down and you not made your house. Betting the flop in this case would probably have cost you your customer, but winning a little is better than losing a lot...
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  • devonfish5devonfish5
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    Get it in pre.... End thread :) 
    Posted by GREGHOGG
    once my opponent has re-raised p/f getting it all-in pre with 99 is not my way or the best way to play them,imo
    I could be up against an over pair a lot of the time,or racing at best,
    had I re-raised all-in back,i'm sure he would have folded with kj,wouldn't he?
    or called with over pairs as said.
    not a great play then,i think.

    :)
    dev

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  • devonfish5devonfish5
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    Lots of different advice going on here and all of it making sense. You could have the same hand against pocket A's, which puts you behind on the flop, but chances are slim. The way you play this hand really depends on your opponent(s).. and each senario is different. In this case you did the right thing (and got the result), but would have lost had any other club come down and you not made your house. Betting the flop in this case would probably have cost you your customer, but winning a little is better than losing a lot...
    Posted by larry1959
    all true mate,
    I was never losing a lot though,i was only ever losing his stack.
    I was only ever looking to win his stack too,not just what was there p/flop.
    if opponents need to hit there flushes and runs to beat me,that's fine,especially if with only the river card to come,i'll take that all day long.
    yes it's frustrating when it happens but I think i'm right in saying it's not a winning play long term,please correct me if i'm wrong.
    :)
    dev


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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : all true mate, I was never losing a lot though,i was only ever losing his stack. I was only ever looking to win his stack too,not just what was there p/flop. if opponents need to hit there flushes and runs to beat me,that's fine,especially if with only the river card to come,i'll take that all day long. yes it's frustrating when it happens but I think i'm right in saying it's not a winning play long term,please correct me if i'm wrong. :) dev
    Posted by devonfish5
    calling is not a good play long term as the amount in his stack are not enough odds to call
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  • rancidrancid
    edited May 2013
    Dev. do you think calling pre versus oppo stack is better than shoving ?
    If so how, you shouldn't be set mining because you don't have the correct implied odds.
    What flops are you happy to go all the way with 9's ?
    If you feel that oppo can have overpairs in range the majority than fold pre...


    There's some great advice in this thread regarding 4 bet shoving and checking the flop.

    Even if on occasion oppo catches a club and actually wins, which is probably imo 12% of the time.
    Checking is still +EV, you have the effective nuts

    If you were the pre flop aggressor then 100% bet the flop btw )


    run golden....




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  • devonfish5devonfish5
    edited May 2013
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:
    In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : calling is not a good play long term as the amount in his stack are not enough odds to call
    Posted by LnarinOO
    that's a good point.
    I have already invested 30p and I thought 99 was a good enough hand to call the extra 60p
    yes,he could have had an over pair,or just an AK AQ AJ etc,
    I might not have been getting the 'correct' odds as you rightly say ,but thought the call was ok at the time.

    yes,it's easy to say that now after winning his stack,and had I lost then we would be talking a whole new ball game on this hand,i guess.
    but sometimes and not always correctly you gotta go with what you gut tells you,or at least I do.
    if something is telling me to fold,i'll fold,if I think it's a call,i'll call,even if it's not technically the correct odds.

    I know this game is all about the long term and you have to have the correct odds to call,etc.
    and yes,i'm sure I should have folded this hand because i'm not getting the 'correct odds'
    hopefully next time I will fold.
    wouldn't be so much fun though posting it up here for you all to tell me how well I played it,would it.  lol
    :)
    dev



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