tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.

devonfish5

In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:

Dev. do you think calling pre versus oppo stack is better than shoving ? If so how, you shouldn't be set mining because you don't have the correct implied odds. What flops are you happy to go all the way with 9's ? If you feel that oppo can have overpairs in range the majority than fold pre... There's some great advice in this thread regarding 4 bet shoving and checking the flop. Even if on occasion oppo catches a club and actually wins, which is probably imo 12% of the time. Checking is still +EV, you have the effective nuts If you were the pre flop aggressor then 100% bet the flop btw ) run golden....
Posted by rancid

hi Rancid,

I do think calling pre is better than shoving.
why?
because he has already shown strength by re-raising.
he could have an over pair obviously or AK,etc.
I realise now i'm not getting the 'correct' odds to call here but att, i'm after his stack before someone else gets it,and I thought 99 was worth calling with.
yes,if I miss my 9 i'm long gone probably,and I've lost another 60p.
it worked out fine this time and I played it as I saw it att,
i'm still learning how to play cash,and I know i'm making mistakes,this being another one,i guess,well long term anyway.

next time v this small stack,i might just remember this hand,as it is in my memory bank,and fold.
but then again,i'll still be after his stack,as always,so I wouldn't completely rule out the call.  lol


dev

GELDY

In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:

In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : hi Rancid, I do think calling pre is better than shoving. why? because he has already shown strength by re-raising. he could have an over pair obviously or AK,etc. I realise now i'm not getting the 'correct' odds to call here but att, i'm after his stack before someone else gets it,and I thought 99 was worth calling with. yes,if I miss my 9 i'm long gone probably,and I've lost another 60p. it worked out fine this time and I played it as I saw it att, i'm still learning how to play cash,and I know i'm making mistakes,this being another one,i guess,well long term anyway. next time v this small stack,i might just remember this hand,as it is in my memory bank,and fold. but then again,i'll still be after his stack,as always,so I wouldn't completely rule out the call.  lol dev
Posted by devonfish5

all of which makes perfect sense, dev, if he had a bigger stack to win.

but Rancid's point about implied odds is that against a small stack, calling WILL lose you money over time, however you play on the flop, because you won't win enough on those times you get his stack to pay for all the misses.

 

rancid

You can take a horse to water, but you can't force them to drink it -


keep calling then


gl

Lambert180

Devon, think of it like this...

You flop a set 1in9 times (roughly)

So 8 times you call and probably fold (sometimes the best hand) or lose so over these 8 times you lose £4.80

1 time you flop a set, and let's assume you stack him 100% of the time (which you won't) you win £4.15

= losing play

AND that's based on a pretty perfect scenario, sometimes you won't stack him when you hit, sometimes you'll hit and still lose, sometimes you'll miss but still put more money on certain flops and lose more than just 60p.

Imo, shoving will definitely be +EV against your average bad short stacker. Occasionally you'll be crushed with only 20% equity, but you'll be flipping alot, 70/30 a fair amount, and probably a few times be 80/20 v a few smaller PPs. You also will get folds sometimes.

For the most part, forget about feel and think about maths.
 

devonfish5

In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:

In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : all of which makes perfect sense, dev, if he had a bigger stack to win. but Rancid's point about implied odds is that against a small stack, calling WILL lose you money over time, however you play on the flop, because you won't win enough on those times you get his stack to pay for all the misses.  
Posted by GELDY

yes I get it mate,
I do.
i'm just saying that i'm always willing to go up against a short stack,even if i'm not getting the exact odds.
 yes i'm only flopping a set 1 in 7.5 not I in 9 but i'm not always going to have to hit that to win.


dev

devonfish5

In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:

You can take a horse to water, but you can't force them to drink it - keep calling then gl
Posted by rancid

i'm not going to 'keep calling' as you put it.
I realise the maths side of the game is important and maybe I've got it wrong here..just.
I don't think with the 30p I've already invested that it's out by very much though,taking that into consideration 8 or 9 times,as well.

I always try to play optimally and I know that to 'keep calling' here is not.
I've tried to explain to you all that at the time it felt the right play and I was going for stacks.

I think you have taken my 'tongue in cheek' remark about calling again the wrong way,Rancid.with your sarcastic reply.
I said I would hope to fold this hand in the future but knowing me i'm likely to call though as I like going for the small stack in general,was what I meant.

dev

rancid

In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:

In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : yes I get it mate, I do. i'm just saying that i'm always willing to go up against a short stack,even if i'm not getting the exact odds.  yes i'm only flopping a set 1 in 7.5 not I in 9 but i'm not always going to have to hit that to win. dev
Posted by devonfish5

Funny how this debate has revolved around the flop when pre is probably a leak

You make this very hard Dev )

If you think oppo has overpairs because your not shoving pre, than why do you think your going to be good post flop ?

By calling your creating dead money that you have little chance of winning, this in itself is -EV
Our post flop play is limited when playing 3 bet pots because of the stack to pot ratio


Seems like you have no intrest in taking this on board and trying to improve - seems like you quite happy to continue making bad plays- IDK


I like you but...gotta stop dismissing good advice )

Lambert180

In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate.:

In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : i'm not going to 'keep calling' as you put it. I realise the maths side of the game is important and maybe I've got it wrong here..just. I don't think with the 30p I've already invested that it's out by very much though,taking that into consideration 8 or 9 times,as well. I always try to play optimally and I know that to 'keep calling' here is not. I've tried to explain to you all that at the time it felt the right play and I was going for stacks. I think you have taken my 'tongue in cheek' remark about calling again the wrong way,Rancid.with your sarcastic reply. I said I would hope to fold this hand in the future but knowing me i'm likely to call though as I like going for the small stack in general,was what I meant. dev
Posted by devonfish5

People aren't suggesting folding, don't fold, just shove

LOL_RAISE

i like checking back, . wouldnt be worried about flush draws as i would expect the opponent to bet himself, i'd assume they have something like tt-kk or a weak Ax when they check the flop

i'd only bet the flop if i didnt think i could get all the money in over 2 streets

YOUNG_GUN

Surely its simple, we bet flop if we can get called by worse if not then check is fine.

2 clubs is very unlikely so its not terrible to check back

Dunno why there is soo much debate

Bottom line is pre calling is bad you should be shoving or folding end of, you dont have enough implied odds for sets. Also the chance overcard comes on flop and you fold its just not good IMO

YOUNG_GUN

Or we can bet flop as a bluff but if they shove then just wasting chips, if your going to c bet here as they play fit/fold then thats fine also

grantorino

Shoving pre seems bad to me. Doubt he 3b/f often enough and don't think we fare too well v his 3b/c range, but I'm not playing enough or at this level to say for sure

We can flat if not solely setmining, just fold readless imo though