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Clearly there's no real reason for Sky to increase their reward points for cash. That would just cost them a bundle and probably wouldn't increase traffic. I suspect that's the reason why it hasn't been adjusted.
What it's got to do with the question of respective promotions between MTT's/SNG's and cash is that it was suggested that Double Points Week is some sort of special privilege being given to cash tables. The truth is that MTT's and SNG's receive almost that much the rest of the time anyway. So this week there are 200% points on cash but every week there's 166% points in MTT's and SNG's. Happy Hour and Early Bird - the regular cash points promotions - only give 150% points.
Complaining that a promotion for cash is unfair on SNG or MTT players when it merely temporarily offsets the usual advantage of playing SNG's and MTT's isn't reasonable. You could look upon the 10 points per pound raked in SNG's and MTT's as being a very long-running 'Promotion' for these games. If you're viewing the Double Points Week for cash tables as a promotion, then that's how you should look at the usual reward point system in SNG's and MTT's.
I tend to agree that promotions like Big Deal and Sit and Go Champ, which only encouraged people to play super-high volume, weren't the best for recreational players like you and I. However, that super-high volume is good for Sky and that is what they want from any promotion. The trick would seem to be to find a promotion for SNG's that both i) requires reasonably high volume and ii) rewards successful play in those SNG's. Promotions that reward break even or only slight winning play across super-high volume ruin the games by encouraging nittiness. It also leaves recreational players without a hope of winning the promotion money.
That's why BOTP is the best promotion for SNG's in my opinion. You're required to play at least one batch of 20 games per week, but points are awarded for success in those games. That leads to the games being played aggressively as players go for the win, and that keeps things interesting for recreational players. 20 games isn't too much to play in a week for your average recreational player, either, so it doesn't exclude them. Nor does it offer a lack of advantages to the higher volume players as there is no limit to the 20 game batches you can play and it's the best batch that counts. There's also a separate 'High Volume' section for players who play 100 game batches.
The problem for Sky is how to apply something like that while BOTP exists on Stars, attracting all the traffic. Obviously BOTP isn't appropriate for DYM's since there is no inherent incentive in DYM's to go for the win. So if we're only talking about regular SNG's, how do you draw traffic away from Stars if Sky's 'BOTP alternative' is not nearly as lucrative?
Answer: You don't.
The result is that the only SNG promotions that are likely to happen on Sky are the ones that are viable for DYM's. Since DYM's don't encourage aggressive play, it's impossible to see how these promotions won't just be further purely volume rewarding promos.
As for MTT promotions, there are lots of freerolls and the additional Jackpot money. You don't have to pay any rake at all to play freerolls like the Poker Premiership so it's literally free money. I have some sympathy with the Sky peeps who don't understand these complaints that MTT's aren't backed enough.
Sky dont have to give you 3 points for 25p rake. But the fact that they do regardless of whether a promo is on, shouldnt be ignored.
The blunt truth is that this Promotion is aimed at cash players because.......they constitute the vast majority of players, & play, on the site.
Most poker sites generate twice as much traffic from cash as MTT's & SNG's combined, hence Cash based Promotions are far & away the most frequent on every Online Poker Site.
There is obviously a lot of differences between how cash and sng/mtt's are raked but there's positives and negative sides to both. For example you mention if you sit down and no-one tops up eventually the money or prize fund on the table could reach zero in theory. Obviously that's true but on the other hand in theory three players could go all in first hand you could treble up and leave the table having paid the lower rake (in comparison to mtt/sng). You also mention because of this (i.e. rake reduces prize pool in cash) the prize pool is secure in MTT's but not in cash the other side of this of course is that the percentage of the prize pool a player can win is limited to less than 50% in mtt's/sng's. On a cash table this is not true and potentially a player could win up to 100% (less rake) in theory.
What i'm trying to say in general is that there is obviously a lot of nuances to each format and raking systems but that's each individual players choice and it's up to them to weigh up the pros and cons of both. What does remain universal is that for his gamble the cash player is raked less than 7.5% whereas the mtt/sng players is raked 10% for his gamble.
I've got a feeling we've hijacked this thread enough and we could go round and round in circles on this issue for some time so might be best to just leave it (obviously feel free to respond to this post should you wish to). I appreciate the points you raised and more importantly the way in which you raise them. Very often on the site when things like this get discussed the thread can quickly get out of control and before long become personal and insulting. So I thank you for that.
Whilst it's perfectly understandable that sky and other poker rooms run promotions for their most profitable and most popular areas it's hard not to feel disheartened and have the overall feeling that the rake I and other mtt and sng players contribute to the site is not as valued as those of cash players. Thanks for taking the time to respond in this thread though!
Unfortunately, I have been up in Newcastle for the SPT since 7am Friday, got back at 1am this morning, & so have not been on the Community since Thursday.
The bolded part is the problem, though. When you compare Reward points received for £1 of cash rake to £1 of tournament fees, you're comparing Player A's £1 paid to the site with Player B's £1 paid to the site. You're simply comparing £1 with £1 so the foundation of this comparison is the same. To carry on the board game analogy; you buy scrabble and I buy monopoly, both for £10. We get to the counter and you're given a big tub of Quality Street as a free gift and I'm given a Chomp bar.
Now, if that tub of Quality street is clearly advertised as an incentive for buying Scrabble, then I will have no complaints. However, if for one week the incentive changes and Monopoly is included in that Quality Street promotion, why should someone buying Scrabble complain about that? This is the heart of the matter.
The Double Points week on cash tables is a similar advantage enjoyed by SNG's and MTT's year round. It's not an advantage being placed on the cash tables. There's nothing stopping those SNG and MTT players from getting on the cash tables (or buying Monopoly) if they think it's such a great promotion.
*It is a little over 9% fees, btw. The tournament may be advertised as buy-in + fees but in a £10+£1 tournament, the cost to you is still £11. The percentage of that £11 which you're paying in fees is 9%.
So the £1 fees are 1 of 11. that's 9%. Well, 9.090909...%
To add to the debate, I would add that enhanced prizes are also promotions, so include the DTD Monday and Orfordable Friday. Paul also ran an STT comp when the structures were changed, and numbers for that were disappointing.
New low for promo threads
If you don't come to 9% then you're not accounting for £11, you're only accounting for £10. £1 has disappeared. A tournament with 10% fees would be £9 + £1.
The cost of the fees relative to the amount you actually pay is 9%. If we're talking about how much of our money is taken off the table by the fees, then the relevant figure is 9%. 91% of our total buy-in goes to the prize pool.
New idea for a promotion Sky: Free Chomps!
You're right you are comparing the cost of two very different things (method of calculating rake is different) but the actual cost, regardless of how it is taken, of SNG's/MTTs's is 10% compared to the cost of 7.5% (or less) for cash! The method for calculating the amount to be raked is the difference in the two formats and is your reason for saying they are not comparable. The method for calculating the points is also different for the two formats and is based on the two different methods of calculating the amount to be raked. To me if you can't compare one you cant compare the other because they both derive from the same overall formats. To me they are both inseparable.
Summary:
a) Amount to be raked - Hard to compare (buy in vs amount in pot)
b) Rake Paid % - directly comparable (10% vs <7.5%) - calculated using A
c) Points awarded - directly comparable (10 per pound vs 6 per pound) - Calculated using B which derives from A.
To carry on your analogy even further. Suppose the £10 used to buy the board game is a voucher gained by spending in a shop. Then to get the £10 voucher I have to buy £500 of dvd's and you have to spend £400 on cd's.
Why should someone complain if the promotion is changed so that monopoly is now in the quality street promotion?! Well for a start the promotion would be get quality street and the chomp if you buy monopoly and only the quality street if you buy scrabble to get a more accurate analogy I.e. double points takes the points awarded to 12 per pound instead of 10 for sng/mtts. So not only is it a better promotion for the CD/monopoly buyer but the DVD/scrabble buyer has had to spend more on dvd's in the first place.
If this type of a promotion seems to happen all the time for the CD buyer but the DVD never seems to get any promotions (or very few) then the dvd buyer is going to get a bit annoyed. The dvd buyer is willing to accept the trade off on rake vs points as he accepts they are two very different products but he would just like promotions to be more evenly spread! This to me is the heart of the matter.
ps no more analogies
I think the whole point though was... for example 5,000 points = £100 C4P
To get them 5000 points, a cash player has to pay abuot £800 in rake
To get them 5000 points, a SnG player has to pay about £500 in rake.
So while this promo gives cash players more for 1 week, SnG players are enjoying more for the other 51 weeks of the year.
I think I've come up with the best way to explain the difference between rake and fees here, using Timed Tournaments because of their payout structure. So:
Player A buys-in to a £100+10 one hour Timed Tournament. He is charged £10 just to sit down and is given 10,000 chips. The value of each of those chips is 1p. By some quirk of fate, after the hour is up Player A has exactly 10,000 chips, so he cashes out for £100 and has made a £10 loss to the fees. He is given 100 reward points and has paid 9% of his buy-in as a fee.
Player B sits down at a cash table with £110. He is not charged a fee to sit down but the rake is 7.5%.
He plays a hand, blind on blind, which he puts £5 into. He wins the £10 pot which is charged 75p rake. He's now sat with £114.25.
Immediately afterwards he plays another hand, blind on blind, which he puts £5 into. He loses this £10 pot which is charged 75p rake. He's now sat with £109.25.
Again by some quirk of fate this scenario is repeated, with each player breaking even from the others, until Player B stands from the table with £100. He has lost no money to his opponents and won none from them but has lost £10 to the rake. He has been given 60 reward points and has paid 9% of his buy-in as rake (Note: not 7.5%).
Player C sits with £110 at a cash table. He is not charged a fee to sit down but the rake is 5%.
He plays a hand, blind on blind, which he puts £50 into. He wins the £100 pot which is charged £1.80 (the maximum) rake. This is rake of 1.8%. He's now sat with £148.20.
He then suffers an unfortunate reverse in the very next hand. By some quirk of fate, this scenario is yet again repeated until Player C stands with £100. He's broken even against his opponents but has paid £10 in rake. That is, again 9%, not 5%. He, too, receives just 60 points.
Players A, B and C have all broken even in their play. They've all sat with £110 and they've all left with £100. Each has paid 9% of their pull-up to the site but player A has received 166% of the points given to players B and C.
Of course Players B and C could have left earlier, meaning that while each pot is raked at 7.5% or 5% up to a maximum, they would have paid less for their session as a proportion of their stack. They could stay longer and end up paying a bigger proportion of their stack as rake.
If these two cash players were to continue breaking even from their opponents until they reach 100 reward points, they would leave with stacks of £93.33. In other words, for their 100 points they would have paid 15.15% of their original pull-up as rake.
This shows that the rake at 7.5%/5% is not directly comparable to fees at 9% as the rake is variable in relation to the pull-up. The way in which the rake is drawn - as 7.5%/5% of each pot - means that, relative to the cash player's pull-up, rake can be anything from zero to 100%. The tournament fees are always 9% of the tournament player's pull-up.
You literally cannot compare the 7.5%/5% directly with the 9% and say that one is better value than the other, as you have in your post jdallstar. One is drawn from the pot while the other is drawn from the buy-in.
You can compare like with like when it comes to reward points. To win the same number of reward points the relevant numbers are 15.15% rake against 9% fees. These two numbers are directly comparable and show how much of a better deal MTT's and SNG's regularly receive.
It's all a bit convoluted but it does illustrate some of the difference. This has taken me hours (not solid writing, just coming back and forth from the computer), so I'm sure other posts will have appeared that I've missed.
We don't close threads ourselves. We just have a little chat with each other. If you want to move back to a broader topic, say something on that.
This Super Prize Draw started at midnight last night but they're only telling us about it now... I was on that promo page earlier this afternoon and there was no information about it.
Why would you start a promotion BEFORE announcing it?