Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey

DoubleAAA

Erm.

Yeah i definitely 100% fold.

Lets face it... this is effectively for your tournament life too.  In fact I probably don't even min raise into the bbs.  I either shove or fold.

This is never a snap call.

And why do you always insist on keeping opponents names in?

DoubleAAA

Villian had already 3bet me once earlier on, and I know that villian will shove almost 100% hands here as it's a good spot for him to shove and is aggro.  I have to call 1585 into a 2385 pot so I need 39.9% equity to call. Q8o vs atc is 53.6% and vs 70% im 48%.  Villian did not like it because I snap called him and said they're right what they said about you in the forum with flawed logic.This is an easy call for me, hence why I snap called him.Hand History #696958595 (17:18 06/10/2013)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancewaller02Big blind 200.00200.001785.00 Your hole cardsQ8   lamedosFold    MATT8Fold    tyler88Fold    DoubleAAARaise 400.00600.002335.00waller02All-in 1785.002385.000.00DoubleAAACall 1585.003970.00750.00waller02Show42   DoubleAAAShowQ8   Flop  73Q   Turn  2   River  10   DoubleAAAWinPair of Queens3970.00 4720.00

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

Erm. Yeah i definitely 100% fold. Lets face it... this is effectively for your tournament life too.  In fact I probably don't even min raise into the bbs.  I either shove or fold. This is never a snap call. And why do you always insist on keeping opponents names in?
Posted by gazza127

Because Gazz he insulted me and told me to post the hand. Im going to keep his name in there. Gazz, what percentage of hands do you think he is shoving? and work out what equity you need to make the call.  Shoving like you said is fine and is probably the best option of the two.

I need to add that I am quite aggro so people will shove lighter on me especially in this situation.

waller02

Right here we go.......

When did I ever use the word donkey?? I just questioned your logic.

This is a primo sat..... 

This is only the second hand that I had actually played. I 3 bet you in the very first hand and hadn't played another one since so the fact that you came out and said that you 100% knew that I would shove puzzled me. You justified your play by saying you snap called........you 100% knew I would shove when I had only previously played 1 hand???? That is just ridiculous imo....

I'm not big on the maths side of things at all but I can't see how calling off with Q8 (for nearly all your stack) against somebody who had only played one hand previously, especially in a sat where you don't even need to win can ever be the right play??? Surely you should be folding leaving yourself with still an average stack size rather than risking it with junk???

If I'm wrong then I apologise........ 

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

Right here we go....... When did I ever use the word donkey?? I just questioned your logic. This is a primo sat.....  This is only the second hand that I had actually played. I 3 bet you in the very first hand and hadn't played another one since so the fact that you came out and said that you 100% knew that I would shove puzzled me. You justified your play by saying you snap called........you 100% knew I would shove when I had only previously played 1 hand???? That is just ridiculous imo.... I'm not big on the maths side of things at all but I can't see how calling off with Q8 (for nearly all your stack) against somebody who had only played one hand previously, especially in a sat where you don't even need to win can ever be the right play??? Surely you should be folding leaving yourself with still an average stack size rather than risking it with junk??? If I'm wrong then I apologise........ 
Posted by waller02

I had been aggro in the game and once I raise the btn 400 the bb is shoving so wide here and especially with me being aggro.  You had also 3bet me earlier.  I only need 39.9% equity to make this call. There is a wise saying, 'don't mock the fish' so if you think Im a poor player, don't moan at me, as that would be -EV for you as I may change my game.

Fwiw you shoved 42o, so I was right in my thinking, and why if you had only played 1 hand would you dream of shoving 42o?

waller02

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : I had been aggro in the game and once I raise the btn 400 the bb is shoving so wide here and especially with me being aggro.  You had also 3bet me earlier.  I only need 39.9% equity to make this call. There is a wise saying, 'don't mock the fish' so if you think Im a poor player, don't moan at me, as that would be -EV for you. Fwiw you shoved 42o, so I was right in my thinking, and why if you had only played 1 hand would you dream of shoving 42o?
Posted by DoubleAAA

I think you have just explained why I would dream of shoving 42o in this post tbh......

1. You had been min raising for fun
2. I had only played 1 hand

I don't think you are a poor player I have never really played you........I just can't see why you would happily snap call with Q8, especially given my previous (or lack of it) play and especially as it was a satellite. Look I'm no great player, far from it and like I said if I'm wrong then so be it!

gazza127

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : I had been aggro in the game and once I raise the btn 400 the bb is shoving so wide here and especially with me being aggro.  You had also 3bet me earlier.  I only need 39.9% equity to make this call. There is a wise saying, 'don't mock the fish' so if you think Im a poor player, don't moan at me, as that would be -EV for you as I may change my game. Fwiw you shoved 42o, so I was right in my thinking, and why if you had only played 1 hand would you dream of shoving 42o?
Posted by DoubleAAA

3 hands you've posted up on the clinic recently.

You:
1) Seem out to get approval that you have infact done the right thing, rather than actually gone looking for advice
2) Seem to want to 'outdo' your opponents by sparking up conflicts and posting up alias'.

Can we have less of this please.  This is a place to get advice so you can improve your game - Not a place to get appeasement for the decisions you've already decided are correct.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : I think you have just explained why I would dream of shoving 42o in this post tbh...... 1. You had been min raising for fun 2. I had only played 1 hand I don't think you are a poor player I have never really played you........I just can't see why you would happily snap call with Q8, especially given my previous (or lack of it) play and especially as it was a satellite
Posted by waller02

The reason why I snap call is because my image is aggro, that it induces people to shove light on me. You are needing chips, you're sat with 8bbs and this is a perfect spot for you to shove and gain 50% extra.  I recognise this so im happy to snap you off with my hand as I know you're going to shove so wide here on me.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : 3 hands you've posted up on the clinic recently. You: 1) Seem out to get approval that you have infact done the right thing, rather than actually gone looking for advice 2) Seem to want to 'outdo' your opponents by sparking up conflicts and posting up alias'. Can we have less of this please.  This is a place to get advice so you can improve your game - Not a place to get appeasement for the decisions you've already decided are correct.
Posted by gazza127

Gazz the guy told me to post the hand so I obliged.  If you don't like my posts then refrain yourself from reading them.   I will not post any alias of any player, but if they berate me or tell me to post the hand as they think I played it poorly then that is my choice whether I do so or not and yes I wil leave there alias in the post.

Again Gazz, do the maths and tell me how much equity I need to make the call and how wide do you expect the bb to be shoving?

Further more, I am not searching for appeasement for my play, I am not even looking for advice on this hand, I posted it because the guy told me too.  I am happy with my play here and if you would like to do the maths to disprove my play here then that would be good and if I am wrong then I can learn from it and adjust accordingly .

waller02

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : 3 hands you've posted up on the clinic recently. You: 1) Seem out to get approval that you have infact done the right thing, rather than actually gone looking for advice 2) Seem to want to 'outdo' your opponents by sparking up conflicts and posting up alias'. Can we have less of this please.  This is a place to get advice so you can improve your game - Not a place to get appeasement for the decisions you've already decided are correct.
Posted by gazza127

In his defence, I did say to post this in the clinic because I wanted to know others thoughts. We both obviously disagree on the hand I'm just curious to know what the general opinion is..........I can even learn something from this too. Perhaps my shove was worse?? Dunno.

FWIW....there are no hard feelings on my part. There were words exchanged, just handbags. I STILL disagree of course but poker would be boring if we all played the same.

THEROCK573

shove poker maths right up you're claypit, in a satalite this play is about as bad as it will ever get. should be open shoving with that stack if you intend to play the hand.

waller02

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : Gazz the guy told me to post the hand so I obliged.  If you don't like my posts then refrain yourself from reading them.   I will not post any alias of any player, but if they berate me or tell me to post the hand as they think I played it poorly then that is my choice whether I do so or not and yes I wil leave there alias in the post. Again Gazz, do the maths and tell me how much equity I need to make the call and how wide do you expect the bb to be shoving?
Posted by DoubleAAA

It's this that I disagree with.......because I had only played 1 hand. I can easily fold and still have a playable stack but I was confident you were weak, I just should have known that you are happy to call it off with junk rather than waiting to be the shover yourself.......which is the better play imo

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : In his defence, I did say to post this in the clinic because I wanted to know others thoughts. We both obviously disagree on the hand I'm just curious to know what the general opinion is..........I can even learn something from this too. Perhaps my shove was worse?? Dunno. FWIW....there are no hard feelings on my part. There were words exchanged, just handbags. I STILL disagree of course but poker would be boring if we all played the same.
Posted by waller02

Hey Waller no hard feelings here, it's why I even took the time to explain to you why I snap called you in the chatbox. I don't even usually respond to people who complain. I'll say hi next time I see you at the tables.

gazza127

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

shove poker maths right up you're claypit, in a satalite this play is about as bad as it will ever get. should be open shoving with that stack if you intend to play the hand.
Posted by THEROCK573

+1

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

shove poker maths right up you're claypit, in a satalite this play is about as bad as it will ever get. should be open shoving with that stack if you intend to play the hand.
Posted by THEROCK573

Agreed I should've open shoved but I didn't. I'm calling off easily here and fwiw I still had around just over 1k in chips if I lost.

waller02

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : Hey Waller no hard feelings here, it's why I even took the time to explain to you why I snap called you in the chatbox. I don't even usually respond to people who complain. I'll say hi next time I see you at the tables.
Posted by DoubleAAA

Same........if there were hard feelings over a 2 quid game of cards then the world would be a very sad place. I think it's good to have disagreements/debates over hands though as it is how ppl learn........that's not me saying I'm right and you're wrong....maybe we are both wrong.....who knows!!!

But I still disagree with you on this one haha

waller02

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : Agreed I should've open shoved but I didn't. I'm calling off easily here and fwiw I still had around just over 1k in chips if I lost.
Posted by DoubleAAA

you had 750 chips if you lost

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : Same........if there were hard feelings over a 2 quid game of cards then the world would be a very sad place. I think it's good to have disagreements/debates over hands though as it is how ppl learn........that's not me saying I'm right and you're wrong....maybe we are both wrong.....who knows!!! But I still disagree with you on this one haha
Posted by waller02

If I were in your situation im going to shove 100% here unless I know that the raiser is going to call me light.  If I know this then I fold, unless I have a decent hand to shove.  Your play was fine, most people will fold as they do not think about how much equity they need to call etc.  But as you said that you should of known that I would call you lightly then in this particular situation vs me you should of folded.

People who comment should try to talk about what your bb range is for shoving and how much equity we need to call.  So easy to just say, fold or call etc, but they're not taking into account the main things:
1) Raisers image
2) bb image
3) Equity

rancid

lol what range of hands do you give villian where you have 39%


something like this



22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o

how are you so sure when you min raise that vill will shove a range wider than above ?

So your min raising Q8o with a view to call it off, this my friend is not good

gazza127

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : If I were in your situation im going to shove 100% here unless I know that the raiser is going to call me light.  If I know this then I fold, unless I have a decent hand to shove.  Your play was fine, most people will fold as they do not think about how much equity they need to call etc.  But as you said that you should of known that I would call you lightly then in this particular situation vs me you should of folded. People who comment should try to talk about what your bb range is for shoving and how much equity we need to call.  So easy to just say, fold or call etc, but they're not taking into account the main things: 1) Raisers image 2) bb image 3) Equity
Posted by DoubleAAA

You still like the call if he pops up with AA/KK/AK/AQ/QQ?

Or do you curse yourself for min raising and then feeling like you are priced in to call off with Q8.... in a satellite where calling off the vast majority of your stack with Q8 is normally going to be suicide?

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : You still like the call if he pops up with AA/KK/AK/AQ/QQ? Or do you curse yourself for min raising and then feeling like you are priced in to call off with Q8.... in a satellite where calling off the vast majority of your stack with Q8 is normally going to be suicide?
Posted by gazza127

So basically you're talking top 3.8% of hands? He only shows up with those hands 1 in 25 so if he has that then nothing I can do about that.  You cannot pick the very top of his range, you have to pick his whole range.  What percentage do you think he is shoving?  FWIW I should of open shoved.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

lol what range of hands do you give villian where you have 39% something like this 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o
Posted by rancid

So he's shoving 40.3%. You don;t think he would also shove any of the other suited connectors such as 87s 76s 56s? If you add those 3 hands then I now have 40% equity.

Giving your shoving range I have 39.5% equity and I need to be good 39.9% (pot odds) of the time.  Also, you have not factured in my image which is aggro on the table raising often.

waller02

Doesn't the fact that I had only played 1 hand meaning my table image must have been "tighter than a ducks a55hole" come into this at all?? Surely it must make you think there is a very good chance I'm a lot stronger than Q8??

That's why I couldn't understand why you said you 100% knew I would be shoving any 2.

If this was a standard mtt then given the stack sizes I can just about understand the play but in a satellite where a 10bb stack is ave stack and you don't need to go for the win, I think its a pretty easy fold.

I have said all I'm going to say anyway.....I'm gonna have to agree to disagree

rancid

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : So he's shoving 40.3%. You don;t think he would also shove any of the other suited connectors such as 87s 76s 56s? Giving your shoving range I have 39.5% equity and I need to be good 39.9% of the time.  Also, you have not factured in my image which is aggro on the table raising often.
Posted by DoubleAAA

ok well if you think villians is going to shove ATC then obviously call

I can't see your stack though, probably better to shove with Q8o

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : ok well if you think villians is going to shove ATC then obviously call I can't see your stack though, probably better to shove with Q8o
Posted by rancid

Yes I should of open shoved.  But once I had limped and he shoved it's a snap call because I know I have enough equity to make the call.

rancid

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : Yes I should of open shoved.  But once I had limped and he shoved it's a snap call because I know I have enough equity to make the call.
Posted by DoubleAAA

You min raised btn v bb, think you need to think a little more pre emptive - ie. if you think vill will shove ATC then ok m/r call it off. But you gotta do that before you m/r, not m/r btn then go o shall I call.

Given your stack is not that bigger than villians, it's a shove on button.

hhyftrftdr

Pretty awful hand. Bit similar to the hand vs Jac35 where OP got very lucky.

Min raise call off here with Q8 for almost all your stack is never going to be a good move.

Jac35

I decided quickly that I was going to make just the one post in the thread you started about me.

I would just like to say this though,  having now seen this thread and looking at the others youve posted in the clinic. 

Ihave never before been pulled up for my behaviour at the table. In fact, it is something that I have talked about plenty of times in my thread. I hate sone of the stuff that people come out with in the chat box.  I was extremely disappointed that people posting in that thread took your word for it before I had any chance to respond.

Waller I have played with plenty of times and he is a pleasure to plsy against. Banter, yes, but never crosses the line.

It would appear to me that you're having issues with people who have never had any problems before.

Is it possible that you could be in the wrong? 

Also the clinic is here to assist players, take on board other views and maybe learn a little.

Not to use it as a platform to try and embarrass people. 

Also it would appear to be quite clear that you have absolutely no intention of listening to well meaning advice. 

You seem to be very proud of your sharkscope. Are you aware that, with all respect, the players who have offered advice to you so fsr have superior records over a meaningful sample?

Incredibly,  although i'm sure you will have to check it to believe it, I have a reasonable sharkscope. In addition to that, I have a few live results that I'm quite happy with.

Maybe we're not all terrible. 

It's lovely that you don't want any hard feelings etc. The trouble for me is that after starting these threads and seemingly having a hazy recollection of what was said, I'm not all that inclined to be best friends. 

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey : You min raised btn v bb, think you need to think a little more pre emptive - ie. if you think vill will shove ATC then ok m/r call it off. But you gotta do that before you m/r, not m/r btn then go o shall I call. Given your stack is not that bigger than villians, it's a shove on button.
Posted by rancid

Yes I should of open shoved but with my image always raising (feels like I keep repeating myself) Im expecting him to shove atc.  I did not say 'oh shall I call' I snap called him.  No need for me to even debate as to whether I call or not.

mattdor29

I could fully understand your play if you had a suited hand esp if diamonds because that does flop well...don't bother with clubs and tread carefully with hearts and spades,go with your reads.Ace 4 of hearts is 93% against any hand BUT aces,where it is 95% sure(not a lot of people know that)....

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: Villian asked me to post this hand as said Im a donkey:

I decided quickly that I was going to make just the one post in the thread you started about me. I would just like to say this though,  having now seen this thread and looking at the others youve posted in the clinic.  Ihave never before been pulled up for my behaviour at the table. In fact, it is something that I have talked about plenty of times in my thread. I hate sone of the stuff that people come out with in the chat box.  I was extremely disappointed that people posting in that thread took your word for it before I had any chance to respond. Waller I have played with plenty of times and he is a pleasure to plsy against. Banter, yes, but never crosses the line. It would appear to me that you're having issues with people who have never had any problems before. Is it possible that you could be in the wrong?  Also the clinic is here to assist players, take on board other views and maybe learn a little. Not to use it as a platform to try and embarrass people.  Also it would appear to be quite clear that you have absolutely no intention of listening to well meaning advice.  You seem to be very proud of your sharkscope. Are you aware that, with all respect, the players who have offered advice to you so fsr have superior records over a meaningful sample? Incredibly,  although i'm sure you will have to check it to believe it, I have a reasonable sharkscope. In addition to that, I have a few live results that I'm quite happy with. Maybe we're not all terrible.  It's lovely that you don't want any hard feelings etc. The trouble for me is that after starting these threads and seemingly having a hazy recollection of what was said, I'm not all that inclined to be best friends. 
Posted by Jac35

Jac, waller asked me to post this hand.  I did not post it for advice, I posted it for him so he could see what other people had to say about the hand.  I am a regular poster on 2+2 and have been for the past 3 years.  I am fairly new to this site as I play mainly on 888 and full tilt.  From now on, I will not post anymore hands if people berate me, just simply ignore them.

I am wrong about many things and am always using 2+2 for advice and always looking to improve my game. I am always friendly at the tables but I do not appreciate people moaning because In their opinion I made a bad call etc. They should be happy that they got me to make a bad call right?