Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby

F_Ivanovic

As title says, please un-highliten the Spin up tables and remove them from the top of the lobby. I don't have a problem with the games - they're likely unbeatable but they're a bit of fun and at least better than RR's but IMO given the gambling nature of these games they shouldn't be promoted to the extent they currently are.

bluffulot6

In Response to Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

As title says, please un-highliten the Spin up tables and remove them from the top of the lobby. I don't have a problem with the games - they're likely unbeatable but they're a bit of fun and at least better than RR's but IMO given the gambling nature of these games they shouldn't be promoted to the extent they currently are.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Why would you like them removed ......why not give the lesser players a chance of beating the game few times per week these will prove you popular and profitiable for sky and certain players 

Itsover4u

I would say they are beatable at $1/$2 & above (rake will eat below that) in much the same way spin & go's are beatable.... just huge variance

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

In Response to Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby : Why would you like them removed ......why not give the lesser players a chance of beating the game few times per week these will prove you popular and profitiable for sky and certain players 
Posted by bluffulot6

Huh? lesser players have less chance of beating the game playing these and their moneu will run out quicker.

I didn't say to remove them, they're a fun format of the game to play but the nature of them can encourage degenerative gambling and as such I don't think they should be promoted and highlighted at the top of the lobby to the extent that they are. 

ALFIE123

In Response to Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

As title says, please un-highliten the Spin up tables and remove them from the top of the lobby. I don't have a problem with the games - they're likely unbeatable but they're a bit of fun and at least better than RR's but IMO given the gambling nature of these games they shouldn't be promoted to the extent they currently are.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

New Idea = Give it a chance

Give it a Chance by promoting them.

alex1229

There is a thread on this already. 

They are beatable, and they're appealing to the right segment of players to Sky. If Sky remove them they're gunna lose a hell of a lot of players

MattBates

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

There is a thread on this already.  They are beatable, and they're appealing to the right segment of players to Sky. If Sky remove them they're gunna lose a hell of a lot of players
Posted by alex1229

How have you decided this?

Jac35

I never really understand these threads. 

I don't like turbo dyms and I would rather players play normal dyms. It's their choice though. I just use the filters to remove them from my lobby.

alex1229

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

I never really understand these threads.  I don't like turbo dyms and I would rather players play normal dyms. It's their choice though. I just use the filters to remove them from my lobby.
Posted by Jac35

Man who speaks sense.

Ivanovic, you're not the only player here believe it or not. I'm sure they're more qualified to make a decision on this then you are.

Sky_Dan

Hi all,

I understand both sides of this argument - it will be impossible to please everyone obviously!

We have highlighted them as a new promotion and I believe we will stop highlighting them at some stage when people are used to knowing where to find them. As you can see many people are struggling to find them via the filters still.

Dan

Phantom66

I love the game of poker, bit of a purist at heart in that I like strategy and complex situations.

I absolutely hated it when nl dyms took off and wiped out 6max traffic - playing for survival not to win doesn't float my boat, but there is no point trying to dictate what other people play or what sky offer. Most people only do this with an element of self interest anyway.

Sky will try and innovate and freshen things up - some games will catch on and others will fall by the wayside. If they are popular they will stay.

For these games it is far too soon to say how popular they will be and no-one can say with any certainty whether or not they are beatable. In theory given 6 closely matched players on a table then over time the rake will win surely. However that's the same for any version of the game.

In practice at the moment (over too small a sample to be meaningful) I find them beatable. Why - quite simply because you get a bunch of bad players on them. Isn't that the real secret of winning at poker, playing people who are worse than you?

Players who, for example,

1. Do not BI for the full amount. We all know that's not exactly optimal right? Maybe understandable on a mastercash table if you want to try it out and keep the decisions simple and double up from a shortstack. But I have seen players BI for 70p on a 20nl table.

2. Do not have auto-topup on. Again big disadvantage generally, but on these? if your raise has been called and you lose a pot to only have 6/7 bigs not 10 the next hand is a leak, but a lot of players are doing it. Even crazier, I have seen players get dwindled down to 2BB and still not top up.

3. Shove/call any 2 cards. Clearly you need a wide range at 10bigs but there are a higher proportion of maniacs getting in with any 2, even calling with 23s, 74o (and yes I remember those because the 23 hit a flush and the 74 a str8).

Plenty more examples of exploitable play if you understand your shove/call ranges at these levels and take notes on what others shove/call with.

So - my 2 penneth.

Keep them highlighted for now - rarely more than 1 table per level open so I don't buy the it's killing traffic elsewhere argument, traffic is just seasonally low.

I personally like them so I am biased in their favour - I should hate them as its not proper cash poker, but then I suck at proper cash poker and get beaten up by good players who have position on me. At the moment in these I more than hold my own.

I still play and very much enjoy other forms of the game too, I have just found with these I am playing cash again when for good bankroll management reasons that was very unwise of me in the past.

Other people (not on this thread) seem to diss them because some of their favourite "bums" have moved on to another game and they don't want to mix their regular multi-table games to follow them onto a spinup table.

shakinaces

lol I quite like them highlighted at the top, stops you from accidentally opening one.

What I don't get is why only some are highlighted... wouldn't it make more sense to highlight all or none?

I also look forward to a new diary with a decent player trying to play sufficient quantity to prove whether they are longer term beatable or not, try and put that debate to bed.

alex1229

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

Hi all, I understand both sides of this argument - it will be impossible to please everyone obviously! We have highlighted them as a new promotion and I believe we will stop highlighting them soon. Dan
Posted by Sky_Dan

But why are they displeased? Change is part of the online game, they're complaining just for the sake of it.

Whereas if you stop highlightening them, the games wont run, which would mean myself an many others wont be able to play here anymore.

Phantom66

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

lol I quite like them highlighted at the top, stops you from accidentally opening one. What I don't get is why only some are highlighted... wouldn't it make more sense to highlight all or none? I also look forward to a new diary with a decent player trying to play sufficient quantity to prove whether they are longer term beatable or not, try and put that debate to bed.
Posted by shakinaces

Hmm dont think I qualify as "decent" and I dont think I play "sufficient" quantity either although I would be happy to keep a separate note of spinup resluts on my diary.

Maybe Dohhhh should have a go at these?

Out of interest, how many hands/hours play would you consider is sufficient quantity to judge whether someone is beating them?

I dont track time played only sessions and profit/loss so I cant say what my winrate is in terms of buyins or BB per hour.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

I never really understand these threads.  I don't like turbo dyms and I would rather players play normal dyms. It's their choice though. I just use the filters to remove them from my lobby.
Posted by Jac35

The filters on Sky for cash games aren't brilliant! I don't think there's a way to remove these games from my lobby, otherwise I would. At least turbo dym's aren't highlighted at the top of the lobby (and you can remove them via filter!) 

I think everyone seems to have missed the point of this thread. I've already said that I actually find these games quite fun and have dipped into them a couple of times. Unlike capped games which I really do hate - but yet I posted about the Spin up games instead because it has nothing to do with me liking or disliking a game, rather it has to do with the inherint high variance and gambling nature of these games making them prime for degenerative gamblers to jump in and lose a chunk of money. You can't control what other people do and Sky are out to make money and have SkyBingo, SkyCasino and SkyVegas. And I'm OK with these games being out there - but when you put them at the top of lobby highlighted it's only making it easier for those gambling addicts. 

Phantom66

So it's a moral arguement then Ivan?

Tough one that - I must admit I did feel uncomfortable by the end of my biggest winning session - only time I have played a long session for nearly 2 hours on a sat nght (x4 points on mobiles). The guy who lost most was shoving and calling with any 2 and even when he showed up with something was getting more than their share of bad luck too. Yet they kept reloading.

I stood up with £30 from my £2 buyin and he must have lost more than that.

I am not sure spinups "encourage gambling" any more than anything else on this site though.

We have all see any 2 card maniacs hit regular and mastercash tables - I would argue that given the 10BB limit on buy-in, a poor reckless player may actually lose less on spinups than regular cash. Given the nature of the tables, they have more chance of spinning up big scores on these sometimes and they can suffer more busts as on 20nl for example they are only losing £2 each time.

I wonder if Sky have any monitoring in place to see whether there is any difference between players losing heavily on these versus other games?

alex1229

Moral argument? Seriously you guys have totally lost me. Its just a fun variant of Poker. Poker has become a grind fest, i dont have time or the will to sit down at a table for hours on end, watching everyone fold playing a handfull of  hands an hour. This is the perfect game for players like me, who wants some quick fun and action.

Why are sites doing things such as 'Twister' 'Spin & Go' 'All in tournies' 

The days  of multitabling grinders trying to breakeven to profit on hefty rakeback is over....quit whinging, either embrace or just leave people to playing it.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

Moral argument? Seriously you guys have totally lost me. Its just a fun variant of Poker. Poker has become a grind fest, i dont have time or the will to sit down at a table for hours on end, watching everyone fold playing a handfull of  hands an hour. This is the perfect game for players like me, who wants some quick fun and action. Why are sites doing things such as 'Twister' 'Spin & Go' 'All in tournies'  The days  of multitabling grinders trying to breakeven to profit on hefty rakeback is over....quit whinging, either embrace or just leave people to playing it.
Posted by alex1229

I've not suggested getting rid of the games - I agree it's nice to have these games to break up the monotomous grind, although personally I prefer Omaha for that. I just don't think promoting heavy gambling games on a poker site which is supposed to be about skill is good for the image of poker. Vicky Coren said the same thing about Pokerstars opening a casino game.

@Phantom: I think the difference is before someone with £40 in their account might decide to play a NL20 cash game. That money could last them a good couple of hours.

With the Spin up games at the top of the lobby they might sit down at NL200 with £20 and within 5/10 minutes could have lost their £40 and decide to reload another £40 - they could easily lose £200 in a couple of hours.

alex1229

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby : I've not suggested getting rid of the games - I agree it's nice to have these games to break up the monotomous grind, although personally I prefer Omaha for that. I just don't think promoting heavy gambling games on a poker site which is supposed to be about skill is good for the image of poker. Vicky Coren said the same thing about Pokerstars opening a casino game. @Phantom: I think the difference is before someone with £40 in their account might decide to play a NL20 cash game. That money could last them a good couple of hours. With the Spin up games at the top of the lobby they might sit down at NL200 with £20 and within 5/10 minutes could have lost their £40 and decide to reload another £40 - they could easily lose £200 in a couple of hours.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Mate people can loose money on any game, i find if i have a bad session on this i loose a lot less...If i'm playing 1/2 £200 deep, and im having a bad sesh and lose 5 buy ins, i'm down £1k. On this playing 1/2 im down £100...the games arnt as reckless as u think, you can easilly get to £200 from a £20 buy in and play some decent poker. 

Its actually one of the main reasons i play this as it's much more bankroll friendly, stops me tilting and spazzing off hundreds of pounds (talking from experience here unfortunatly) so id have to disagree with ur argument of it being a degen/bad game. Quite the opposite.

huuuuume

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

lol I quite like them highlighted at the top, stops you from accidentally opening one. What I don't get is why only some are highlighted... wouldn't it make more sense to highlight all or none? I also look forward to a new diary with a decent player trying to play sufficient quantity to prove whether they are longer term beatable or not, try and put that debate to bed.
Posted by shakinaces

THIS

If I click the 'regular' filter on my cash game lobby I am still left with all the spin up tables.  I have no intention of playing these so can I remove them from my lobby in the same way I can remove the heads up tables that I don't play?

goldnballz

Are you friends with Dan Coleman?

Lambert180

I get where Ivan is coming from. As he said with the Vicky Coren example, she didn't like the idea of stars pushing casino games on their site and decided to gg her sponsorship with them.

I don't have anything against the games either, it's all a good bit of fun and I've had a little splash around on them too. I guess Ivan's point was around the whole 'responsible gambling' thing which all sites have to encourage. I think 'responsible gambling' was one of the reasons Sky said they weren't allowed to have auto rebuy/addon buttons due to some new UK regulation for example. Not saying Sky are breaking any rules btw, I'm sure they've checked it all out in advance.

Fwiw, "If i'm playing 1/2 £200 deep, and im having a bad sesh and lose 5 buy ins, i'm down £1k. On this playing 1/2 im down £100" is a pretty poor example.

Playing 10bb effective you could be by far the best player at the table and lose 5 'BIs' in the space of 20 mins easyyyyyy. It would take some serious bad luck to drop 5 BIs at 1 table where you're the best player if you're 100bb effective in 20 mins. It's apples and pairs. If you wanna punt off £20 then you can still sit at any regular 100NL with £20 or whatever (as many players regularly do).

sikas

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby : THIS If I click the 'regular' filter on my cash game lobby I am still left with all the spin up tables.  I have no intention of playing these so can I remove them from my lobby in the same way I can remove the heads up tables that I don't play?
Posted by huuuuume

yeah am not happy about this

by all means highlight a couple, let the punters punt, but remove them from the 'regular' filter please

Phantom66

So what is a degenerate gambler exactly? Probably 95% of the population would say we all are just for spending time playing poker.

Surely bankroll management and self control apply to all forms of the game.

It's easy to make a case that spinups are better or worse than "normal" games based on assumptions and made up scenarios.

A pure gambler with little poker skill or someone on tilt can lose money quickly on a spinup or on a mastercash table.

Better not to demonise spinups just yet. Give them time and let sky make the decision based on actual facts.

stuarty117

All in RR are worse than these go all the way up to the £55 level, are these responible gambling

Players have played these in the past for promos, this is your choice, players are over 18 after all.

unknown_username

responsible gambling pah,what are sky gonna do are they gonna contact someone and say,hey,you lost alot o money today were gonna keep an eye on you so that you don't do it again and if you do we,ll suspend your account,i don't think so.

the only time i can remember it being done is when someone came on the forum and told all and sundry that they had a problem then sky banned them.

looking at the posts the only people pulling their faces about the lobby are the cash regs who seemed bothered about the lesser players/gamblers playing on the spin ups rather than donating to them

look, sky have said they will see how things go so let them worry about the lobby

edit:im gonna read the oatcake now cuz ive lost a fiver dont want sky on me case

F_Ivanovic

@Phantom: A degen gambler is someone that loses money that they can't afford to lose. Well, at a bare minimum anyway. Obviously there's varying degrees of degeneracy! 

Having the Spin Up tables highlighted at the top of the lobby is like invited an alcoholic to a party with an open bar. Yes, if you didn't invite them they might still get recklessly drunk but that doesn't mean you just go ahead and invite them anyway. 

@ Stuarty: Yes, RR are just as bad, if not worse, but at least they're not highlighted at the top of the lobby.

I agree that just because there are degenerative gamblers in the world doesn't mean others should lose out on potential enjoyment. Hence I'm not advocating for these games to disappear - just that they not be highlighted at the top of the lobby any longer. But hey, that's just my opinion and ultimately Sky will decide when to remove them from the top of the lobby. 

alex1229

Just drop this whole degen thing, totally lame excuse to try and get the game removed. 

Just played some .5/1 and it reminded me why i stopped playing it here since last year. The most boring nit infested games ever, i;m having to show bluff after bluff to try and squeeze some play out of them. Literally managed to get to showdown with around 4 hands in the past hour, twice they had AA. Theres literally nothing more boring or tilting than what i just went through.

Spin ups on the other hand are fun, quick and action filled. This is what i and many others want, we work, we have social lives we dont want to grind away at a lifeless table for 6 hours - leave them up, they're doing well for Sky whats the need to change? Look how much i raked during July, remove them and you'll lose tons of players like me as the games wont run anymore.

Phantom66

Ok - degen gamblers are in trouble the second they chose to log on to any gambling site.

No side of the arguement has any evidence that 

1. spinups attract more or less degens than any other type of the game.

2. spinups are better/worse in terms of how quickly they would lose their bankroll vs other forms

There is an "assumption" that because they are highlighted at the top of the lobby they will attract more degens.

I have only played a total of 46 sessions of these so its early days but I have seen 1 player who I would class as a degen, playing a2c and reloading constantly for a 2 hour session. I have seen others who must be losing players but they stand after a small number of BIs so I assume they are not "degens" and have some self control and bankroll diiscipline.

I think Stoke is spot on in that most regs who whine about spinups dont like the fact that some weaker players are playing them instead of regular games. I havent seen anyone who is not a winning reg complain about them.

I accept in defending them I have my own self interest too, I like playing games which are not full of sharks and I have a skill edge over most of the table most of the time. There is skill involved in these even with the 10BB stack, and when a few players do spinup it can quickly become a very deep stacked game which certainly differentiates them from capped games.

Finding a skill edge and playing for profit is why I play low stakes 6max SNGs when they are running. I also like challenging myself and playing with a pool of players who are tough to beat but play in a friendly way with a great atmosphere at the tables, which is why I like PLO8 dyms too.

Fwiw I dont think they should always be highhlighted, but equally we are in the low volume part of the year so to enable them to become established I would like to see them highlighted for a bit longer.

alex1229

Spins up level of play is akin to online Poker back in 2006 - i just dont get why people would whinge - it's fantastic, it's brought fun back into a dwindling product. I say well done Sky, for doing somthinng tad different, now stick to ur guns and keep it for a few more months and see how it pans out...

Sky_Dan

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby:

In Response to Re: Spin up - no highlight at top of lobby : yeah am not happy about this by all means highlight a couple, let the punters punt, but remove them from the 'regular' filter please
Posted by sikas

I agree with those of you who have mentioned this - I will try to sort this out now.

*Update* - unfortunately the 'regular' filter refers to the type of poker being played, IE NL, PL, Heads-Up. Because the Spin Up tables are NL they are appearing in all filters relating to NL. I don't think this should be the case and agree that the filters need some work. I am going to raise this to see if we can get something sorted.