chancers,river mechants and bully boys

charlyb8

it seems that of late, sky seems to cater more and more for the chancers,river merchants and the bully boys and what suprises me most is,they always seem to win.The game of poker as it used to be,seems to have gone out the window.No skill seems to be needed anymore,all you do now,is throw them in and hope you win and it seems to be getting worse every week.God help us poker players.I could mention another site thats the worst online and this is catching up with it rapidly.This is not a moan in the sence of the game because i really enjoy playing but what is happening to it.It seems we are getting more players recently that dont care wether they win or loose no matter how high the stakes and to me this spoils it for the rest of us who enjoy playing and pitting our wits against each other.Theres no skill in what they do,far from it and dont tell me you wish there were more of this type of player because im sure the marjority of poker players wouldn't agree,how many times have you come up against them and how many times have you been caught on the river no matter what bet you put in.NO,this is now getting beyond a joke.I know there will be some who dissagree with me,there always are,thats life or they just like to be different to the rest of us.What you would call (argumentative) and theres a few on here but i believe the majority of you will agree.Would like to hear what you say about this.Enjoy your games,LMAO

unknown_username

not being arguementative here but i dissaggree the more the merrier i say

unknown_username

In tournament play he has a point. Problem is you can't beat them all. Eventually someone gets lucky.

unknown_username

This thread made me laugh. out. loud.

DOHHHHHHH

The game hasnt changed, its the way that its being played. It will be different everytime u sit down, thats why its so brilliant.

The guys who look like they dont wanna win, DO WANNA WIN, n thats why they do what they do. 4th, 5th, 6th,7th aint no good to them. Trust me Im one of em.

Uve gotta adapt ur game to what ur facing. If everyone plays abc, the only winner is the deck, u might as well run a raffle.

Get busy, show em u can play.

GL, DOHH

charlyb8

LMAO.you seem to have got me wrong here.I wasent complaining about or moaning about the game of poker.I'm also not saying that i cant play or talking about bad beats.All im doing here is seeing the game as its changed over the past 6 months.This is my point of view and some will agree and some wont.Its obvious that this will happen.Everyone has there own version of how the game should or should not be played.All i was saying is that its started to happen more on a regular basis and this surely cant be good for the game.To be quite honest,ive laughed my head off at some of the things that are said at these players and must admit not very complimentary.So you cant say that i'm the only player who thinks what i do.Perhaps they just wont admit it.Its not a matter of the of these people getting lucky,its the decent player who needs the luck to beat them.Because all to often they don't and ive seen this on a regular basis.

unknown_username

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq3zZbj8TDE

You've changed Gus, you've changed.

BlackFish3

In Response to chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

it seems that of late, sky seems to cater more and more for the chancers,river merchants and the bully boys and what suprises me most is,they always seem to win.The game of poker as it used to be,seems to have gone out the window.No skill seems to be needed anymore,all you do now,is throw them in and hope you win and it seems to be getting worse every week.God help us poker players.I could mention another site thats the worst online and this is catching up with it rapidly.This is not a moan in the sence of the game because i really enjoy playing but what is happening to it.It seems we are getting more players recently that dont care wether they win or loose no matter how high the stakes and to me this spoils it for the rest of us who enjoy playing and pitting our wits against each other.Theres no skill in what they do,far from it and dont tell me you wish there were more of this type of player because im sure the marjority of poker players wouldn't agree,how many times have you come up against them and how many times have you been caught on the river no matter what bet you put in.NO,this is now getting beyond a joke.I know there will be some who dissagree with me,there always are,thats life or they just like to be different to the rest of us.What you would call (argumentative) and theres a few on here but i believe the majority of you will agree.Would like to hear what you say about this.Enjoy your games,LMAO
Posted by charlyb8

how can you not win against people that play without skill?!?

hogan2089

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to chancers,river mechants and bully boys : how can you not win against people that play without skill?!?
Posted by BlackFish3

probably because theres an element of luck in the game !!!....

BlackFish3

only in the short term

hogan2089

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

only in the short term
Posted by BlackFish3

agreed

BlackFish3

yes u may lose one match if you get outdrawn but if you play 100 surely you should be able to win more than people with 'no skill'

dav1964

I do know what you mean charly but it also depends what game you regularly play.Any fast structured tourny and this always happens.Have you tried the deepys? or the omaha tournys? There is far more skill needed to win these.I have just won the 10.15 £50 gtd omaha tourny with 17 runners at £5.50 buy in and there was not a chancer in sight.gl mate.dav

IRISHROVER

chanchers  : 

we all take our chance when we buy in to a poker game.

river merchants :

 this happens every poker player on a regular bases.

bullyboys : 

 if we are bigstacked we all try and bully the weak stacks.

all the above is the wonderful game we call poker,

and we all know what we are getting ourselves into .

over and out roborover !

DOHHHHHHH

Loads of people should be pointed in the direction of the Irishman, not the Irish robot, the Irish man. Hes a cracking fella, and although not from the DOHHHHHH school of bankroll management/approach to poker, he has a winning formula. - For a bloke who plays so conservatively bankroll wise, his sharkscope stats are really unbelievable!

His record speaks for itself, and it should be an example to the lower stakes players who want to play poker for fun, but win money at the same time. This man has the balance figured out perfectly, and I wish him all the luck in the world. Take a leaf out of this book guys, u cud do alot worse.

DOHH

BrownnDog

What you are saying is both highly illogical and highly irrational. You seem to misunderstand the most fundamental point of poker theory: overtime more skilful poker players will profit from less skilful poker players. This is because as variance evens out overtime, luck becomes less significant and skill becomes more significant and the better plays will win. You state that that the majority of poker players will agree with you that it would be a good thing for bad poker players to become more skillful. This is demonstrably untrue as it would make the professional and recreational poker players ability to win more difficult. What is the advantage of that? I can assure you if you polled a body of poker players, such as those on sky, 95% would not want less skilful players to improve their game as it is totally nonsensical. 

When you complain that players have 'caught on the river' and such other moans, what you are actually referring to is 'short term variance', which basically means you are running below expectation or to put it simply 'getting unlucky'. Overtime, however, this will even out and you will run at expectation and sometimes lower and sometimes higher. I can assure you that if you apply a basic winning strategy, like one that I have detailed in the 'holdem strategy' section, then overtime you will profit consistently from these 'chancers,river merchants and  bully boys'.




All the best





Browndog

unknown_username

Browndog - u should make that a slightly more generalised post and get it Stickied. spot on!

google: variance in poker

unknown_username

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWRjqaBTvew

unknown_username

55sec+ for you by the way.

charlyb8

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

yes u may lose one match if you get outdrawn but if you play 100 surely you should be able to win more than people with 'no skill'
Posted by BlackFish3

  Well,well,.well fishy,i'm quite suprised,i thought you would have been the first to answer my post,you've let me down.I havent yet seen you agree with what any one has said on this forum yet.It's very enlightening.The ammount of time you spend on this forum,i wonder what you do at college,learn poker.Will have to tell me which 1 you go to,think i'll join.lmao lmao lmao..Then i can have your opinion and play as well as you do,Please let me know.YOUR biggest fan.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

What you are saying is both highly illogical and highly irrational. You seem to misunderstand the most fundamental point of poker theory: overtime more skilful poker players will profit from less skilful poker players. This is because as variance evens out overtime, luck becomes less significant and skill becomes more significant and the better plays will win. You state that that the majority of poker players will agree with you that it would be a good thing for bad poker players to become more skillful. This is demonstrably untrue as it would make the professional and recreational poker players ability to win more difficult. What is the advantage of that? I can assure you if you polled a body of poker players, such as those on sky, 95% would not want less skilful players to improve their game as it is totally nonsensical.  When you complain that players have 'caught on the river' and such other moans, what you are actually referring to is 'short term variance', which basically means you are running below expectation or to put it simply 'getting unlucky'. Overtime, however, this will even out and you will run at expectation and sometimes lower and sometimes higher. I can assure you that if you apply a basic winning strategy, like one that I have detailed in the 'holdem strategy' section, then overtime you will profit consistently from these 'chancers,river merchants and  bully boys'. All the best Browndog
Posted by BrownnDog

I think the original post was concerning tournament play. If so then there is something in what he says. What you propose sounds to be the logical conclusion but it is flawed with regards to tournament play. It will stand the test in ring games but the maths start to work against you in tournaments.

In a tournament with any given number of entrants there will always be the ''chancers'' the poster refers to. With the increased popularity of poker in recent years, and more recently on Sky, there has been an increase in the percentage of new players entering tournaments. Because of their lack of experience they are more likely to play the risky hands as would be expected. As you rightly point out the variance related to each individual will even out over time. ie. The 'chancer' will lose more than he/she wins and the maths will be proven. However, in tournament play this has to be adjusted for the numbers of players involved. 

On a one-to-one basis the maths stack up. In a tournament where the percentage of 'chancers' is increasing the normal expectations don't apply. Tournaments are progressive by nature and not individual hands with a result. As an example, if in a 100 player tournament there are 80 'chancers' and 20 capable players then the 'chancers have a 4 to 1 advantage of numbers. This 4 to 1 ratio has to be taken into account as it is no longer a one-to-one scenario. Making informed judgements against these players is nigh on impossible and the success of the wild calls, against any individual, increases with their numbers. 

This has been happening across the poker scene for a number of years and is if anything improving slightly as the general skill levels increase. Sky is a young site and is currently enjoying a rapid increase in new players, of whom the biggest majority are inexperienced beginners. Ring games are a good feeding ground for the better players but tournaments have become a minefield which is increasingly more difficult to negotiate.

charlyb8

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

I do know what you mean charly but it also depends what game you regularly play.Any fast structured tourny and this always happens.Have you tried the deepys? or the omaha tournys? There is far more skill needed to win these.I have just won the 10.15 £50 gtd omaha tourny with 17 runners at £5.50 buy in and there was not a chancer in sight.gl mate.dav
Posted by dav1964

   Dave.Thats all i play are DS,M8,i've said im not complaining or moaning about what i said,i know this happens and have been there,every one has,all ive said is that its getting worse and becomming more than a joke now.To be quite honest,i try not to get involved with these players,if u try to outthink them you come out loosing.I normally sit back and let them knock themselfs out,then have a good laugh.Its easier playing against 1 on the table than 3.Have seen many a time on first flop,2 or 3 go all in.To me this is kamikazi play,but as said this is up to them.No prob on my part.There just trying to be clever.

charlyb8

  elsadog,
           
                its nice to see someone has read my post as it should have been and i agree with you fully.

Spike2120

Charly I can understand where your coming from, just the other week I could not get players off hands and they always seem to hit me on the river. Whatever I got they got better, but like everyone has said thats not the game changing, thats just poker.

Irishrover and Dohh are absolutely right in what they are saying what you have called all these people who you say have no skill, well frankly at some point or another you are just them, you can't say you have never called something found yourself in a tight spot and then hit the river and then ran in shame, or you were big stacked in any tournament and decided to lean on the shortest stack cause you know he wont put his stack on the line for nothing short of premium. These are all parts of the game.

There is always going be players whether its this site or any other site and even in the casinos who will not value the price he has paid and go all out, or the people who call you all the way with a draw to hit on the river, this is poker every in one way or another is a chancer, some are bigger than others all you do is make a little note on them and then adapt accordingly and carry on, eventually skill prevails over luck.

My best advice is forget about the past or how you see it changing look at your table, get your reads, look at your cards, play your game one hand at a time, you can't change how other people play, but you can adapt your play to suit theirs.

Spike2120

charlyb8

When you complain that players have 'caught on the river' and such other moans, what you are actually referring to is 'short term variance', which basically means you are running below expectation or to put it simply 'getting unlucky'. Overtime, however, this will even out and you will run at expectation and sometimes lower and sometimes higher. I can assure you that if you apply a basic winning strategy, like one that I have detailed in the 'holdem strategy' section, then overtime you will profit consistently from these 'chancers,river merchants and  bully boys'.


  M8. its seems you havent read my post,only what you wanted to see.I SAID,i wasen't complaing or moaning about it,i was just giving a general opservation on the game,which was my opinion.Why do people read into things,that are not there,no wonder arguments get started on here.They dont read the posts properly.

charlyb8

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

Charly I can understand where your coming from, just the other week I could not get players off hands and they always seem to hit me on the river. Whatever I got they got better, but like everyone has said thats not the game changing, thats just poker. Irishrover and Dohh are absolutely right in what they are saying what you have called all these people who you say have no skill, well frankly at some point or another you are just them, you can't say you have never called something found yourself in a tight spot and then hit the river and then ran in shame, or you were big stacked in any tournament and decided to lean on the shortest stack cause you know he wont put his stack on the line for nothing short of premium. These are all parts of the game. There is always going be players whether its this site or any other site and even in the casinos who will not value the price he has paid and go all out, or the people who call you all the way with a draw to hit on the river, this is poker every in one way or another is a chancer, some are bigger than others all you do is make a little note on them and then adapt accordingly and carry on, eventually skill prevails over luck. My best advice is forget about the past or how you see it changing look at your table, get your reads, look at your cards, play your game one hand at a time, you can't change how other people play, but you can adapt your play to suit theirs. Spike2120
Posted by Spike2120

    Nice one m8,i agree.

dav1964

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

When you complain that players have 'caught on the river' and such other moans, what you are actually referring to is 'short term variance', which basically means you are running below expectation or to put it simply 'getting unlucky'. Overtime, however, this will even out and you will run at expectation and sometimes lower and sometimes higher. I can assure you that if you apply a basic winning strategy, like one that I have detailed in the 'holdem strategy' section, then overtime you will profit consistently from these 'chancers,river merchants and  bully boys'.   M8. its seems you havent read my post,only what you wanted to see.I SAID,i wasen't complaing or moaning about it,i was just giving a general opservation on the game,which was my opinion.Why do people read into things,that are not there,no wonder arguments get started on here.They dont read the posts properly.
Posted by charlyb8

I know you are not moaning mate,just observing.I did a similar post the other week and only stated what i was observing and i got bombarded.Dont worry mate this happens to all of us.gl at the tables dav

dav1964

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : I think the original post was concerning tournament play. If so then there is something in what he says. What you propose sounds to be the logical conclusion but it is flawed with regards to tournament play. It will stand the test in ring games but the maths start to work against you in tournaments. In a tournament with any given number of entrants there will always be the ''chancers'' the poster refers to. With the increased popularity of poker in recent years, and more recently on Sky, there has been an increase in the percentage of new players entering tournaments. Because of their lack of experience they are more likely to play the risky hands as would be expected. As you rightly point out the variance related to each individual will even out over time. ie. The 'chancer' will lose more than he/she wins and the maths will be proven. However, in tournament play this has to be adjusted for the numbers of players involved.  On a one-to-one basis the maths stack up. In a tournament where the percentage of 'chancers' is increasing the normal expectations don't apply. Tournaments are progressive by nature and not individual hands with a result. As an example, if in a 100 player tournament there are 80 'chancers' and 20 capable players then the 'chancers have a 4 to 1 advantage of numbers. This 4 to 1 ratio has to be taken into account as it is no longer a one-to-one scenario. Making informed judgements against these players is nigh on impossible and the success of the wild calls, against any individual, increases with their numbers.  This has been happening across the poker scene for a number of years and is if anything improving slightly as the general skill levels increase. Sky is a young site and is currently enjoying a rapid increase in new players, of whom the biggest majority are inexperienced beginners. Ring games are a good feeding ground for the better players but tournaments have become a minefield which is increasingly more difficult to negotiate.
Posted by elsadog

Brilliant post elsadog.dav

unknown_username

As an example of variance in tournament. In my OPINION, nothing has changed in poker other than the fields are in fact *tougher* (not worse) due to increased aggression in recent years.

"Say that you manage to get your money into the middle 3 times during the early to middle stages of a poker tournament as a significant favorite. Once with an over-pair and twice while dominating a smaller ace with an Ace-King. You are more likely to be out than to have a big chip stack according to the math.

Hand 1: KK vs JJ – You win 80% of the time.
Hand 2: AK vs A9 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 80% = 56% Still In Tournament)
Hand 3: AK vs A6 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 56% = 39% Still In Tournament)

Even though you got your money in as a big favorite all 3 times you will be busted more than 60% of the time."

This example shows, using simple math, how variance plays such a HUGE part in tournament poker. That even when you are 70-80% favourites, after just 3 hands you are only in the tournament around 1/3rd of the time. Now factor in the occasions where you are actually an underdog, and you will begin to see that no matter what field you are up against, even as a more skilled opponent you face massive challenges.

Variance. Poker's the same game it was for the last few years. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can control yourself and improve your ability to manipulate your opponents.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

As an example of variance in tournament. In my OPINION, nothing has changed in poker other than the fields are in fact *tougher* (not worse) due to increased aggression in recent years. "Say that you manage to get your money into the middle 3 times during the early to middle stages of a poker tournament as a significant favorite. Once with an over-pair and twice while dominating a smaller ace with an Ace-King. You are more likely to be out than to have a big chip stack according to the math. Hand 1: KK vs JJ – You win 80% of the time. Hand 2: AK vs A9 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 80% = 56% Still In Tournament) Hand 3: AK vs A6 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 56% = 39% Still In Tournament) Even though you got your money in as a big favorite all 3 times you will be busted more than 60% of the time." This example shows, using simple math, how variance plays such a HUGE part in tournament poker. That even when you are 70-80% favourites, after just 3 hands you are only in the tournament around 1/3rd of the time. Now factor in the occasions where you are actually an underdog, and you will begin to see that no matter what field you are up against, even as a more skilled opponent you face massive challenges. Variance. Poker's the same game it was for the last few years. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can control yourself and improve your ability to manipulate your opponents.
Posted by Deadluck

Your examples given are of course correct. However, by giving specific examples you omit all the other possibilities both pre-flop and post-flop. You are right to say that aggressive play has increased but I think you possibly confuse targeted aggression with mindless speculation. Targeted aggression has always been part of any successful tournament players game. I do disagree with you when you say nothing has changed. This statement, from a player who's profile states he learnt to play poker in January 2009, is rather a bold one.

Consistently achieving success in tournaments was never easy, today it is considerably more difficult than ever before.

MereNovice

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

As an example of variance in tournament. In my OPINION, nothing has changed in poker other than the fields are in fact *tougher* (not worse) due to increased aggression in recent years. "Say that you manage to get your money into the middle 3 times during the early to middle stages of a poker tournament as a significant favorite. Once with an over-pair and twice while dominating a smaller ace with an Ace-King. You are more likely to be out than to have a big chip stack according to the math. Hand 1: KK vs JJ – You win 80% of the time. Hand 2: AK vs A9 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 80% = 56% Still In Tournament) Hand 3: AK vs A6 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 56% = 39% Still In Tournament) Even though you got your money in as a big favorite all 3 times you will be busted more than 60% of the time." This example shows, using simple math, how variance plays such a HUGE part in tournament poker. That even when you are 70-80% favourites, after just 3 hands you are only in the tournament around 1/3rd of the time. Now factor in the occasions where you are actually an underdog, and you will begin to see that no matter what field you are up against, even as a more skilled opponent you face massive challenges. Variance. Poker's the same game it was for the last few years. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can control yourself and improve your ability to manipulate your opponents.
Posted by Deadluck

This argument is flawed.
You will not be "busted" more than 60% unless you are playing against a bigger chip stack on each occasion.
If we double up by winning the first one then we are likely to out-chip our opponent in the 2nd hand etc (certainly during the early stages of a tournament).
One of the skills of tournament poker is to preserve your stack by playing against players with shorter stacks (i.e. "bullying").
Calculated aggression wins tournaments generally.
People have to accept that lots of other players will play aggressively and take their chances.