chancers,river mechants and bully boys

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys :   Well,well,.well fishy,i'm quite suprised,i thought you would have been the first to answer my post,you've let me down.I havent yet seen you agree with what any one has said on this forum yet.It's very enlightening.The ammount of time you spend on this forum,i wonder what you do at college,learn poker.Will have to tell me which 1 you go to,think i'll join.lmao lmao lmao..Then i can have your opinion and play as well as you do,Please let me know.YOUR biggest fan.
Posted by charlyb8

There are plenty of times i agree... i really dont get what your problem with me is? You just insult me all the time for no reason, i have no idea who you are you just pop up! And i go to university not college... kings college london to study law.
Have you ever seen me play or seen my record?

DOHHHHHHH

lol very nicely answered blackfish! - Used to pee me off too when people asked me how college was going grr

Nice reply tho

DOHH

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

lol very nicely answered blackfish! - Used to pee me off too when people asked me how college was going grr Nice reply tho DOHH
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

lol thanks... its so strange this guy seems to follow me around after i have posted and have a go at me! ive nvr even played against him...!!

unknown_username

Anyone who thinks these so called "chancers" aka donks have an edge over skilled opponents who make correct decisions is not taking the correct approach.

My example was a quote from a simple googlesearch on variance in poker, it's still fairly accurate. And even if you win flips you can still come up against big stacks so yes of course its flawed but it still happens. It was a very linear example for basic purposes.

Also, yep I learnt the game one year ago, but I've played alot and watched alot since then, read alot of books and in fact I'm now a professional dealer.

This thread is just laughable. You've got it so wrong. Flame me all you like.

unknown_username

Browndog is the only poster in this thread who has made any sense with any credibility.

MereNovice

I don't think anyone is flaming you.
I also happen to (strongly) disagree with the OP.

Seagull158

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : lol thanks... its so strange this guy seems to follow me around after i have posted and have a go at me! ive nvr even played against him...!!
Posted by BlackFish3

Maybe he found out you're a lawyer (in training). Then it would be entirely natural for him to follow you around expressing his distaste for you!!! Lawyers are second only to BANKERS in the (un)popularity stakes.

Usual disclaimer - Don't take this post too seriously.

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : Maybe he found out you're a lawyer (in training). Then it would be entirely natural for him to follow you around expressing his distaste for you!!! Lawyers are second only to BANKERS in the (un)popularity stakes. Usual disclaimer - Don't take this post too seriously.
Posted by Seagull158

hahaha! nice post seagull... why are lawyers hated so much?? we work hard... we deserve to charge extortionate fees!

unknown_username

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

Anyone who thinks these so called "chancers" aka donks have an edge over skilled opponents who make correct decisions is not taking the correct approach. My example was a quote from a simple googlesearch on variance in poker, it's still fairly accurate. And even if you win flips you can still come up against big stacks so yes of course its flawed but it still happens. It was a very linear example for basic purposes. Also, yep I learnt the game one year ago, but I've played alot and watched alot since then, read alot of books and in fact I'm now a professional dealer. This thread is just laughable. You've got it so wrong. Flame me all you like.
Posted by Deadluck

Iv watched Enter the Dragon and went to karate class.... but that don't make me Bruce Lee

unknown_username

I said I was a dealer and have a good understanding of the game, defending my own credibility. Not that I was the next tom dwan

Edit: Touché

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : Iv watched Enter the Dragon and went to karate class.... but that don't make me Bruce Lee
Posted by HuFlungPu

lmao love the saying

have to say though Deadluck always seems to know his custard when he comments on something so possibly a little harsh on him..............


......................... still love the saying tho lol

unknown_username

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

Browndog is the only poster in this thread who has made any sense with any credibility.
Posted by Deadluck

I think I have a little credibility and quite a lot of experience. Different takes on the game are the norm. I didn't shoot you down I said your argument was flawed, as is browndog's IMO.

charlyb8

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : Iv watched Enter the Dragon and went to karate class.... but that don't make me Bruce Lee
Posted by HuFlungPu

   NICE 1 m8,found that very funny.......lmao

unknown_username

Flawed, due to its linear nature, but correct. If you wanted to factor the unlimited possibilities of poker into one sentence to define the nature of the variance in tournament, you'd find it impossible.

My arguement is however far more structured and well presented than the OP.

Don't waste time looking to poke holes in what was intended as a fairly informative, and factual, using very BASIC math when you could be constructive and improve it. Instead what I find is a common occurance on these forums is that the posters who may well be very capable players submit themselves to lowering their standards to the classic "Sky is full of morons who get lucky and win all the time even though im a 65% favourite until the river".

We should be working towards a better Sky. Not submitting ourselves to accepting Poker is dominated by luck when it quite clearly is not over thousands of tournaments and millions of hands.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

Flawed, due to its linear nature, but correct. If you wanted to factor the unlimited possibilities of poker into one sentence to define the nature of the variance in tournament, you'd find it impossible. My arguement is however far more structured and well presented than the OP. Don't waste time looking to poke holes in what was intended as a fairly informative, and factual, using very BASIC math when you could be constructive and improve it. Instead what I find is a common occurance on these forums is that the posters who may well be very capable players submit themselves to lowering their standards to the classic "Sky is full of morons who get lucky and win all the time even though im a 65% favourite until the river". We should be working towards a better Sky. Not submitting ourselves to accepting Poker is dominated by luck when it quite clearly is not over thousands of tournaments and millions of hands.
Posted by Deadluck

You'll do well as a Lawyer.

You quote statistics based on one-on-one hands. The tendency when faced with a high percentage of inexperienced players is to end up in multi-contested pots. Isolating players is increasingly more difficult and in those circumstances your statistics don't stack up. You quote obscure ''quotes'' in a thread where this has not been the case. Your comment regarding other posters saying poker is dominated by luck is also false. In multi-contested pots luck doesn't have to beat the premium hand the maths will take care of that. Nobody here has argued against the maths. But the maths are not as straightforward as you make out.

charlyb8

if you had read my post as it should have been,i did say i wasent moaning about the game,i did say it wasent about bad beats and i did say it was an observation,so why do you try to exband it into what is not there.Some have put it into the the true charactor of what it was meant to be.Some have turned it into a bad beat session,which it is not.If your troubled about bad beats,theres a section for it.Most of you have read my post as it should be and have made very fair comments and i agree with most they say.The rest have turned into a slanging match which is not the reason of this post.Why peaple always twist things to suit themslves i'll never know.Mother nature i would say.IT WAS JUST AN OBSERVATION,NOT AN ARGUMENT ON HOW TO PLAY POKER,which some of you think it is.Thank you the ones for your fair comments.Good luck in your games and play well.

BrownnDog

Elsadog



Everything you have stated since my original post simply isn't true. Especially the part about variance being somehow different in tournaments than in cash games. It's total nonsense and you seem to have become confused at some point at how variance in long term poker works. I don't have a lot of time to post on these forums so I cant really explain in depth what is flawed with your logic. I can, however, suggest some very good poker math books and articles which will help you understand to a greater degree. If you have any other questions feel free to PM me.



All the best



Brownnndog

charlyb8

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

chanchers  :  we all take our chance when we buy in to a poker game. river merchants :  this happens every poker player on a regular bases. bullyboys :   if we are bigstacked we all try and bully the weak stacks. all the above is the wonderful game we call poker, and we all know what we are getting ourselves into . over and out roborover !
Posted by IRISHROVER

   I like the chanchers bit m8 lmao

IRISHROVER

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys :    I like the chanchers bit m8 lmao
Posted by charlyb8

lol ty great thread by the way !

interesting debate you have started !

over and out roborover !

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

Elsadog Everything you have stated since my original post simply isn't true. Especially the part about variance being somehow different in tournaments than in cash games. It's total nonsense and you seem to have become confused at some point at how variance in long term poker works. I don't have a lot of time to post on these forums so I cant really explain in depth what is flawed with your logic. I can, however, suggest some very good poker math books and articles which will help you understand to a greater degree. If you have any other questions feel free to PM me. All the best Brownnndog
Posted by BrownnDog

In fairness Browndog the math doesn't change but the dynamics of the game do. Tournies do operate in a different way to cash and the increasing pressure of blinds mean you get slapped by this type of thing more often than in cash. I rate your game, your a good player..... but Elsa has hundreds of thousands in tournament cashes and is an experianced player, he is just making an observation from the tournament players point of view 

charlyb8

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : lol ty great thread by the way ! interesting debate you have started ! over and out roborover !
Posted by IRISHROVER

  Honored,m8 that comming from you.Well done in the game last night.

dav1964

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : In fairness Browndog the math doesn't change but the dynamics of the game do. Tournies do operate in a different way to cash and the increasing pressure of blinds mean you get slapped by this type of thing more often than in cash. I rate your game, your a good player..... but Elsa has hundreds of thousands in tournament cashes and is an experianced player, he is just making an observation from the tournament players point of view 
Posted by ACESOVER8s

+1 if browndog cant see this then i dont know who can?

unknown_username

You'll do well as a Lawyer

Stab or Compliment. I'll take it in Jest, either way it is unneccessary.

The tendency when faced with a high percentage of inexperienced players is to end up in multi-contested pots. Isolating players is increasingly more difficult and in those circumstances your statistics don't stack up.

Wrong. If you end up multiway playing aces hard and fast against donks with K7 and Q9 you still hold the most equity. In the long run you come out on top no matter what format you play.

You quote obscure ''quotes'' in a thread where this has not been the case.

Oh come on, see through the mist? Nobody has said Charly is moaning, I never said it either, my quote however does clarify a linear example of variance taking a greater hold  over a short term sample of one tournament.

But the maths are not as straightforward as you make out.

ORLY? Must I stoop as low as to quote myself since you managed to miss a pivotal sentence. I even capitalised it for you which was, still, somehow missed. See Below.

using very BASIC math

Nobody here has argued against the maths

how many times have you been caught on the river no matter what bet you put in.NO,this is now getting beyond a joke

If this were not an arguement against the maths, then what is? this is clearly stating that he feels like he is bad beat more due to the apparently more donks, so much so that it is "beyond a joke". Or is my interpretation of this thread really that wrong? Rhetorical question, FYI.

All im doing here is seeing the game as its changed over the past 6 months

Perhaps I was wrong in stating its the same game as the last few years. I can only rightfully speak for the last year, beyond that was indeed based on speculation and research. But over the last 6 months it hasnt changed a bit I can tell you that for certain. Maybe there ARE more donks, but this is is 100% a good thing, for without donks people would not be making any money from the game. Except the Raker.

My advice is that if you want to avoid the c**p shoots and huge variance associated with MTTs, play STTs or Cash. Otherwise - Deal with it.

unknown_username

That was fun.

BrownnDog

You seem to misunderstand me, or perhaps I have misunderstood the other posters here. I am not at all saying that adjustments don't need to be made when playing in a tournament format as opposed to a ring cash game. Of course this is so. My argument is that variance as a concept i.e the amount of times you win in a specefic situation over time, is no different whether you are playing in a touranment or in a cash game.




Browndog

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

You seem to misunderstand me, or perhaps I have misunderstood the other posters here. I am not at all saying that adjustments don't need to be made when playing in a tournament format as opposed to a ring cash game. Of course this is so. My argument is that variance as a concept i.e the amount of times you win in a specefic situation over time, is no different whether you are playing in a touranment or in a cash game. Browndog
Posted by BrownnDog

Agreed but lets also not forget that these donk moves against you also tend to stay in the memory a little longer in tournys. Cash you reload and can beat the variance, get your money back and some more of his to go along with it, tournaments you can't. the variance kicks your backside out with no second chances

fitzer14

Hi Charly m8,must say i totally agree with your thread m8.but this is to be expected in on-line play.
As you said m8"its not a moan"...i hear where you are coming from m8.
Remember m8,if youre playing within your bankroll(as im sure you are)...it dont matter,its fun and just enjoy it for what it is.


gl at the tables m8.



Fitz.



P.S />    ROVER is a *star*

unknown_username

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

Stab or Compliment. I'll take it in Jest, either way it is unneccessary. Wrong. If you end up multiway playing aces hard and fast against donks with K7 and Q9 you still hold the most equity. In the long run you come out on top no matter what format you play. Oh come on, see through the mist? Nobody has said Charly is moaning, I never said it either, my quote however does clarify a linear example of variance taking a greater hold  over a short term sample of one tournament. ORLY? Must I stoop as low as to quote myself since you managed to miss a pivotal sentence. I even capitalised it for you which was, still, somehow missed. See Below. If this were not an arguement against the maths, then what is? this is clearly stating that he feels like he is bad beat more due to the apparently more donks, so much so that it is "beyond a joke". Or is my interpretation of this thread really that wrong? Rhetorical question, FYI. Perhaps I was wrong in stating its the same game as the last few years. I can only rightfully speak for the last year, beyond that was indeed based on speculation and research. But over the last 6 months it hasnt changed a bit I can tell you that for certain. Maybe there ARE more donks, but this is is 100% a good thing, for without donks people would not be making any money from the game. Except the Raker. My advice is that if you want to avoid the c**p shoots and huge variance associated with MTTs, play STTs or Cash. Otherwise - Deal with it.
Posted by Deadluck

I think you're in danger of over-egging the pudding.

With regards to your advice, I'll pass on this occassion if you don't mind.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

You seem to misunderstand me, or perhaps I have misunderstood the other posters here. I am not at all saying that adjustments don't need to be made when playing in a tournament format as opposed to a ring cash game. Of course this is so. My argument is that variance as a concept i.e the amount of times you win in a specefic situation over time, is no different whether you are playing in a touranment or in a cash game. Browndog
Posted by BrownnDog

I haven't disagreed with what you said. I said it changes where tournaments are concerned and that was what I believed the original poster was referring to. My point was that in tournament play, the chances of outdraws, which can severely damage progress or take you out, increase as the skill level diminishes. ie. The more loose calls you encounter the greater the chances of being tripped up. The chances on each individual hand never change but overall your personal chances of tournament survival diminish the more times you encounter it. The main factor is the number of participants in each hand. In the early days of online poker a 4x raise would usually result in one caller if any. Today it's common to have 4 way pots following an all-in move. The higher buy-in mtts were still immune from the multi-call phenomenon until quite recently, but with the increased popularity of satellites that is not now so. The use of the 'hot meter' by a lot of inexperienced players is partly to blame for this on Sky. Hands such as J9s are given 'top hand' status and that may well influence the loose calls we have all encountered. 

unknown_username

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys:

In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : I think you're in danger of over-egging the pudding. With regards to your advice, I'll pass on this occassion if you don't mind.
Posted by elsadog

LOL