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what now?

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  • ACESOVER8sACESOVER8s
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : He cant have a flush draw, if he has a overpair ;-)
    Posted by DeuceAK-47
    lol thats a given :)
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    his 3 bet range OOP is JJ QQ KK AA and im unsure about AK, AJ and AQ he flats. you have hit a point that has me very frustrated at the moment and i have no idea HOW HE VEIWS ME nor do i have any idea of how any other players sees me, i need to sort this out if i want to progress but have no idea how, go on me and you have played a fair bit together how do you veiw me? do me a favour be honest, if your eyes light up when you see me at your table then please say.
    Posted by freechips1

    I just wonder how I am going to lose a buyin to you lol


    You want lots of info on yourself and villain yet can give none of your own reads because of self confessed selfishness!! hmmm



    I'm going to continue trying to help you by asking questions that are meant to help you improve by forcing you to think rather than be told anything.



    Is he going to want to get JJ in for 200 bbs on this flop against you do you think?


    if not then do you really think he is 3 betting JJ pre, what would he do if you 4 bet him? 

    Have you ever 4 bet him? 
    How often do you call 3 bets.?
    How does position affect the above frequencies?

    How often do you take stack sizes into account before you do any of these plays?


    How would you play the flop if you had flopped a set?

    What were you going to do on other flops -

    234hhh

    QJTdd

    AT2r

    Q43hh

    T86sss





    Do you think he is 3betting AK/AQ?

    If he does 3 bet AK how is he going to play when he misses?

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  • robcrobc
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : I just wonder how I am going to lose a buyin to you lol You want lots of info on yourself and villain yet can give none of your own reads because of self confessed selfishness!! hmmm I'm going to continue trying to help you by asking questions that are meant to help you improve by forcing you to think rather than be told anything. Is he going to want to get JJ in for 200 bbs on this flop against you do you think? if not then do you really think he is 3 betting JJ pre, what would he do if you 4 bet him?  Have you ever 4 bet him?  How often do you call 3 bets.? How does position affect the above frequencies? How often do you take stack sizes into account before you do any of these plays? How would you play the flop if you had flopped a set? What were you going to do on other flops - 234hhh QJTdd AT2r Q43hh T86sss Do you think he is 3betting AK/AQ? If he does 3 bet AK how is he going to play when he misses?
    Posted by beaneh

     find this thread really interesting seeing how much thought and the process of  these thoughts of the higher rollers
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited March 2010
    Is there anything wrong with 3 betting JJ and folding to a 4 bet beaneh?
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? :  find this thread really interesting seeing how much thought and the process of  these thoughts of the higher rollers
    Posted by robc
    Feel free to ask questions and or disagree with stuff.


    The reason I don't want to just say an answer as to how this hand should be played is because that it is more important to understand the reasons behind every play you make rather than just get the idea that there is always this one way to play a hand and it's right. You always need to be aware of why you are making plays and which factor is most influencing your decision.
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  • freechips1freechips1
    edited March 2010
    i put him on overpair as i seen the tv show where he played a overpair the same way, and he will deffo c bet AK so when he checks the flop i am very concerned about a overpair. will he get it all in with JJ? i cant see him folding jj+ thats why i call on the turn if i hit my draw he will pay me off and as i will post the rest of the hand in a sec i thought he would fold a overpair with 6677 on the board, why did i think he would fold i have no idea but it looked like a good idea at the time.
    as you know i dont call 3 bets all that often hardly ever OOP.  if the flop had come queen high i would of played hand same way but flat called on the river, as i said i was sure of the overpair.
    i did take stack size into account. if i wasnt sat deep then i would of bet the flop and ended up all in and said 'oops i knew you had that' and hoped to hit my ace or draw.
    As i said i am unsure if he 3 bets AK OOP in POS yes he will but OOP im unsure, AQ OOP he is calling not 3 betting
    if i had flopped a set i am checking the flop and reraising the turn,
    thanks for taking the time to post on this thread all. anymore comments r very welcome
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  • freechips1freechips1
    edited March 2010
    swiper Small blind  £0.50 £0.50 £147.64
    varney Big blind  £1.00 £1.50 £187.59
      Your hole cards
    • A
    • Q
    		     
    cooler82 Fold     
    freechips1 Raise  £4.00 £5.50 £215.95
    sam1986 Fold     
    cottlad Fold     
    swiper Fold     
    varney Raise  £14.00 £19.50 £173.59
    freechips1 Call  £11.00 £30.50 £204.95
    Flop
       
    • 7
    • 2
    • 6
    		     
    varney Check     
    freechips1 Check     
    Turn
       
    • 7
    		     
    varney Bet  £23.00 £53.50 £150.59
    freechips1 Call  £23.00 £76.50 £181.95
    River
       
    • 6
    		     
    varney Bet  £48.00 £124.50 £102.59
    freechips1 All-in  £181.95 £306.45 £0.00
    varney All-in  £102.59 £409.04 £0.00
    freechips1 Unmatched bet  £31.36 £377.68 £31.36
    varney Show
    • K
    • K
    		   
    freechips1 Show
    • A
    • Q
    		   
    varney Win Two Pairs, Kings and 7s £375.88  £375.88
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited March 2010
    A lot of the questions you are asking beaneh are based on reads... but how do you play when you are readless...

    for example you have just joined the table and find yourself in these situations:

    a) you have AK and are 3 bet by someone who has position over you
    b) you have AK and are 3 bet by someone who you have position over
    c) same as a) and b) but with AQ

    hope you dont mind offering any thoughts on these situations, im not really looking for a do this or do that... more of a why you would consider this etc... but readless.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    Is there anything wrong with 3 betting JJ and folding to a 4 bet beaneh?
    Posted by BlackFish3


    You can answer this yourself. 


    If you are 200 bb deep and get JJ you think weeeeee yay pair weee jacks, god I always lose with them but come on one time lets hit a set weeeeeeeeeee


    so you 3 bet and then zomg villain 4 bets you ....



    If you do not want to get in 200 bb preflop with JJ then just think how you will feel inside having to click the fold button.




    Then imagine before you click 3 bet you think hazar wait a sec I had to fold this the other day i'ma do a flat call. Now you are in a smaller pot with deep stacks with a strong hand which can set over set people etc  So if you were behind and the dude was going to have KK or AA and 4 bet you then you have a chance to stack his monster hand if you bink a J, similarly he may well not have those hands (even if he was going to 4 bet) and you will even when you dont hit a jack win the pot some percentage of the time. 




    Just to clarify there is always going to be a spot in holdem where you can make up some silly scenario where your villain for example opens any two cards and calls 3 bets with any two cards and 4bets with only QQ-AA. Then that would be a good spot to 3 bet fold but as you can see that is a very specific situation where you have alot of 100% certain information on  your villain.]




    Just a word of advice, don't try and 13 table whilst posting on the forum because you will keep timing out and probably annoy those at your tables!! :-p
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited March 2010
    Freechips i think you rep a 6 or quads more than a 7 here... flat calling the turn suggests to me you dont have a 7 as stated above. On the river you could of housed up with a 6 and shoved putting him on the overpair.
    So does he think you call 3 bets with hands like 56s, A6s?
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited March 2010
    I would just like to say thanks beaneh for posting on this thread... you give brilliant advice! So would you say as a general rule dont 3 bet if you are going to fold to a 4 bet?
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    A lot of the questions you are asking beaneh are based on reads... but how do you play when you are readless... for example you have just joined the table and find yourself in these situations: a) you have AK and are 3 bet by someone who has position over you b) you have AK and are 3 bet by someone who you have position over c) same as a) and b) but with AQ hope you dont mind offering any thoughts on these situations, im not really looking for a do this or do that... more of a why you would consider this etc... but readless.
    Posted by BlackFish3


    In general I play tighter readless

    a) depending on size and stacks I either call or shove, never fold.

    b) always call

    c) aq oop fold first time, make note to hate person in future pots :p

    d) again probably fold first time depending on stacks etc 



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  • lynx3ffectlynx3ffect
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    A lot of the questions you are asking beaneh are based on reads... but how do you play when you are readless... for example you have just joined the table and find yourself in these situations: a) you have AK and are 3 bet by someone who has position over you b) you have AK and are 3 bet by someone who you have position over c) same as a) and b) but with AQ hope you dont mind offering any thoughts on these situations, im not really looking for a do this or do that... more of a why you would consider this etc... but readless.
    Posted by BlackFish3
    you cant get much more of a why you would do that as the "why" would only come into play with reads!

    a - on sky fold :P, or 4 bet shove
    b - flat
    c - fold, fold

    thats only my personal opinion, i generally dont like flatting 3bets oop as you never have any control over the pot and if u miss the flop its check fold as villain c-bets 90% time, if you hit and c/c then your hand isnt disguised at all

    in position is totally different as you can obv peel one off and bet/raise if villain shows weakness or you pick up draws etc
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    I would just like to say thanks beaneh for posting on this thread... you give brilliant advice! So would you say as a general rule dont 3 bet if you are going to fold to a 4 bet?
    Posted by BlackFish3


    eh i'd say dont be afraid of a four bet (especially not a light one) until you have a good read on the person. Just give them credit. Just make sure that if you 3 bet you ALREADY know what you are doing to a 4 bet. Some players will never 4 bet, some will 4 bet loads. So dont 3 bet a hand like JJ that cant stand a 4 bet and then suddenly think bu gger.


    As a general rule, you want to 3 bet hands that are just too poo to call with and with which you can easily hit the fold button and not feel like you've shot yourself in the foot. If you want to hate life then go and 3 bet JT sooooted and get 4 bet. It's the worst feeling in the world!!! You coulda seen a flop, coulda flopped a straight flush and instead you put a tenner in the pot and have to just fold......


    will post more regarding freechips post in a bit, tis hard playing and posting!!!
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    his 3 bet range OOP is JJ QQ KK AA and im unsure about AK, AJ and AQ he flats. you have hit a point that has me very frustrated at the moment and i have no idea HOW HE VEIWS ME nor do i have any idea of how any other players sees me, i need to sort this out if i want to progress but have no idea how, go on me and you have played a fair bit together how do you veiw me? do me a favour be honest, if your eyes light up when you see me at your table then please say.
    Posted by freechips1

    In Response to Re: what now?:
    i put him on overpair as i seen the tv show where he played a overpair the same way, and he will deffo c bet AK so when he checks the flop i am very concerned about a overpair. will he get it all in with JJ? i cant see him folding jj+ thats why i call on the turn if i hit my draw he will pay me off and as i will post the rest of the hand in a sec i thought he would fold a overpair with 6677 on the board, why did i think he would fold i have no idea but it looked like a good idea at the time. as you know i dont call 3 bets all that often hardly ever OOP.  if the flop had come queen high i would of played hand same way but flat called on the river, as i said i was sure of the overpair. i did take stack size into account. if i wasnt sat deep then i would of bet the flop and ended up all in and said 'oops i knew you had that' and hoped to hit my ace or draw. As i said i am unsure if he 3 bets AK OOP in POS yes he will but OOP im unsure, AQ OOP he is calling not 3 betting if i had flopped a set i am checking the flop and reraising the turn, thanks for taking the time to post on this thread all. anymore comments r very welcome
    Posted by freechips1


    So he flats AQ/AJ. Ok. He 3 bets AK and always bets the flop when he misses?


    Do you ever think he is just messing about pre-flop and just expecting to get a fold alot of the time?  Say with 89o? If he doesn't have a 'bluffing range' then it makes the hand alot easier to play because you don't have to add any combos of air that you could either be ahead of or crushing.


    From hands you have played with him, or that he has seen you play does he think you are going to call the flop light (ie any one pair hand) because 'he could be continuation betting with AK'?



    If he had cbet, what range of hands do you raise call utg 200 bb deep and then raise the flop with either for value or as a bluff/semi bluff? What hands is he 3betting and continuing and how does he continue?

    If you held QJcc what would you do on this flop when checked to? Would you bet? 
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  • freechips1freechips1
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    Freechips i think you rep a 6 or quads more than a 7 here... flat calling the turn suggests to me you dont have a 7 as stated above. On the river you could of housed up with a 6 and shoved putting him on the overpair. So does he think you call 3 bets with hands like 56s, A6s?
    Posted by BlackFish3
    like i said b4 i cant get my head around what people thnk of me, i think some players see me as a bit of  nit but others see me as loose. i have no idea.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : like i said b4 i cant get my head around what people thnk of me, i think some players see me as a bit of  nit but others see me as loose. i have no idea.
    Posted by freechips1

    Different players have different standards to judge by.

    You should also be playing differently against different standards of player.


    You can tell how people view you by what cards they play against you etc
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited March 2010
    Also fwiw freechips you have only responded to other peoples posts, i've asked maybe 15 questions and you've not answered one. Have a go at all of them and post it back here, I promise it will improve your game.
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  • DeuceAK_47DeuceAK_47
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : In general I play tighter readless a) depending on size and stacks I either call or shove, never fold. b) always call c) aq oop fold first time, make note to hate person in future pots :p d) again probably fold first time depending on stacks etc 
    Posted by beaneh
    Sounds abit tight to me to be folding aq in position all the time.

    You should at least be raising 35% of hands when folded to on the button, then if you get 3bet your only calling or 4betting with ak,jj+ for example (3.5% of hands), your fold to 3bet stat would be around 90% (optimal is supposed to be between 70 and 80%).

    I know alot of players on sky are passive but thats very exploitable.....it would be +ev to 3bet you with 72o
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : Sounds abit tight to me to be folding aq in position all the time. You should at least be raising 35% of hands when folded to on the button, then if you get 3bet your only calling or 4betting with ak,jj+ for example (3.5% of hands), your fold to 3bet stat would be around 90% (optimal is supposed to be between 70 and 80%). I know alot of players on sky are passive but thats very exploitable.....it would be +ev to 3bet you with 72o
    Posted by DeuceAK-47
    that's readless and not all of the time if you read the posts before it etc...
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : Sounds abit tight to me to be folding aq in position all the time. You should at least be raising 35% of hands when folded to on the button, then if you get 3bet your only calling or 4betting with ak,jj+ for example (3.5% of hands), your fold to 3bet stat would be around 90% (optimal is supposed to be between 70 and 80%). I know alot of players on sky are passive but thats very exploitable.....it would be +ev to 3bet you with 72o
    Posted by DeuceAK-47
    you would obviously call with suited cons and all pairs though.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : Sounds abit tight to me to be folding aq in position all the time. You should at least be raising 35% of hands when folded to on the button, then if you get 3bet your only calling or 4betting with ak,jj+ for example (3.5% of hands), your fold to 3bet stat would be around 90% (optimal is supposed to be between 70 and 80%). I know alot of players on sky are passive but thats very exploitable.....it would be +ev to 3bet you with 72o
    Posted by DeuceAK-47

    Eh? I haven't said anything about raising on the button? 

    And why are you assuming you are playing against opponents who are playing exploitative strategies? 

    'optimal stat' - there is no such thing. Each and every game is different. If you are in a grindery game on FTP playing with a bunch of 22/19's  then you can worry about including x more combos of hands to call 3 bets with so your stat moves up 4% (though if you are worrying about stats in that way, you are probably going to get crushed as pf doesn't really matter).
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  • zingzing
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : Sounds abit tight to me to be folding aq in position all the time. You should at least be raising 35% of hands when folded to on the button, then if you get 3bet your only calling or 4betting with ak,jj+ for example (3.5% of hands), your fold to 3bet stat would be around 90% (optimal is supposed to be between 70 and 80%). I know alot of players on sky are passive but thats very exploitable.....it would be +ev to 3bet you with 72o
    Posted by DeuceAK-47

    You should stop quoting random "optimal strategies". You raise the button 100% of the time if you know they're nits in the blinds because they keep folding to you and if this is the case, you only need to min raise the button to reduce losses for when they do pick up a hand. Then you adapt again if they adapt to your current plan and start calling/3betting you more. 

    The examples can be endless..

    Posting them stats on how you play is very exploitable in itself if you're sticking by guidelines on how to play the "optimal" way.

    You can't generalise folding AQs 3bet IP as tight when you don't know anything about certain villains.

    This hand is also 200bb deep there's little chance he is raising worse as people tighten up 3bets OOP when deeper so with said replies from freechips on villain this is a fold pre and I don't think twice personally.

    edit:beaneh beat me.



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  • DeuceAK_47DeuceAK_47
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : you would obviously call with suited cons and all pairs though.
    Posted by BlackFish3
    Calling with suited cons and all pairs is a big leak IMO if you are only 100bb deep.
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  • DeuceAK_47DeuceAK_47
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : You should stop quoting random "optimal strategies". You raise the button 100% of the time if you know they're nits in the blinds because they keep folding to you and if this is the case, you only need to min raise the button to reduce losses for when they do pick up a hand. Then you adapt again if they adapt to your current plan and start calling/3betting you more.  The examples can be endless.. Posting them stats on how you play is very exploitable in itself if you're sticking by guidelines on how to play the "optimal" way. You can't generalise folding AQs 3bet IP as tight when you don't know anything about certain villains. This hand is also 200bb deep there's little chance he is raising worse as people tighten up 3bets OOP when deeper so with said replies from freechips on villain this is a fold pre and I don't think twice personally. edit:beaneh beat me.
    Posted by zing
    TBH my deep stack play is not the best so you may be right, but surely we can call a tight 3 better 200bb deep with aqs as its makes massive hands which are going to stack the villan.
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  • lynx3ffectlynx3ffect
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : TBH my deep stack play is not the best so you may be right, but surely we can call a tight 3 better 200bb deep with aqs as its makes massive hands which are going to stack the villan.
    Posted by DeuceAK-47
    what are you gonna do if you hit your Q on that board then? fold tptk after he barrels 2 streets cause "hes a tight 3 better"?
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  • BlackFish3BlackFish3
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : Calling with suited cons and all pairs is a big leak IMO if you are only 100bb deep.
    Posted by DeuceAK-47
    why do you think that?
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  • DeuceAK_47DeuceAK_47
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : what are you gonna do if you hit your Q on that board then? fold tptk after he barrels 2 streets cause "hes a tight 3 better"?
    Posted by lynx3ffect
    Yeh im folding tptk to alot of agrression against this player, but when i play this hand im mainly trying to hit big hands like two pair,trips,straights and flushes to stack the villan who cant get off an overpair,as we have position we can also get them off hands like jj and qq on a k high board.(i would be folding aq preflop with 100bb stacks against this player.)
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : TBH my deep stack play is not the best so you may be right, but surely we can call a tight 3 better 200bb deep with aqs as its makes massive hands which are going to stack the villan.
    Posted by DeuceAK-47

    Calling is fine with reads, without it's going to be tough and i'd rather have 68s than AQs.


    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : Calling with suited cons and all pairs is a big leak IMO if you are only 100bb deep.
    Posted by DeuceAK-47

    However you seem to just keep making random generalisations which don't relate to anything i've said.


    As is; the hh showed that we didn't want to bet this of all flops after calling pre and considering the range assigned by hero of villain it should actually be a pretty easy fold. 

    You just cant say it's a leak to call with pps or it isn't,it all depends on our opponents and how they will play. You really don't want to just get into automatically doing things because you heard someone say the word optimal in the same sentence as describing it.
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  • DeuceAK_47DeuceAK_47
    edited March 2010
    In Response to Re: what now?:
    In Response to Re: what now? : why do you think that?
    Posted by BlackFish3
    The implied odds to set mine are not good enough when you are 100bb deep IMO.(Would be very suprised if beaneh is folding AQs and calling with 22 to a 3bet.)
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