what now?

DeuceAK_47

In Response to Re: what now?:

In Response to Re: what now? : Calling is fine with reads, without it's going to be tough and i'd rather have 68s than AQs. In Response to  Re: what now? : However you seem to just keep making random generalisations which don't relate to anything i've said. As is; the hh showed that we didn't want to bet this of all flops after calling pre and considering the range assigned by hero of villain it should actually be a pretty easy fold.  You just cant say it's a leak to call with pps or it isn't,it all depends on our opponents and how they will play. You really don't want to just get into automatically doing things because you heard someone say the word optimal in the same sentence as describing it.
Posted by beaneh

AQs plays alot better in three bet pots than 68s, Blackfish3 said you would obviously call with all suited cons and all pair though, i never said you can never play them but calling them all the time in a 3bet pot who be a big leak.

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: what now?:

In Response to Re: what now? : The implied odds to set mine are not good enough when you are 100bb deep IMO.(Would be very suprised if beaneh is folding AQs and calling with 22 to a 3bet.)
Posted by DeuceAK-47

you raise 3BBs in CO (pot now 4.5BBs) with 22, you get 3 bet by the button to 9BBs (pot 13.5BBs), folded round to you, its 6BBs to call, he has 91BBs back, flop a set 1/8 times so if you stack him half the time you flop a set and fold if you dont then the call is fine. The tighter his 3 bet range the better! I dont see how you could fold a pair in that situation when you can so easily stack sum1 with an over pair.

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: what now?:

In Response to Re: what now? : AQs plays alot better in three bet pots than 68s, Blackfish 3 said you would obviously call with all suited cons and all pair though, i never said you can never play them but calling them all the time in a 3bet pot who be a big leak.
Posted by DeuceAK-47

i didnt say call with all suited cons, i said you would obviously call with suited cons and all pairs, i think its quite obvious that i didnt mean all suited cons all the time, for example 73s is a suited con but you would probably fold that to a 3 bet.

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

In Response to Re: what now? : you raise 3BBs in CO (pot now 4.5BBs) with 22, you get 3 bet by the button to 9BBs (pot 13.5BBs), folded round to you, its 6BBs to call, he has 91BBs back, flop a set 1/8 times so if you stack him half the time you flop a set and fold if you dont then the call is fine. The tighter his 3 bet range the better! I dont see how you could fold a pair in that situation when you can so easily stack sum1 with an over pair.
Posted by BlackFish3

Fold 22 in this spot.

Sets are hard to flop, people are hard to stack oop. 

DeuceAK_47

In Response to Re: what now?:

In Response to Re: what now? : you raise 3BBs in CO (pot now 4.5BBs) with 22, you get 3 bet by the button to 9BBs (pot 13.5BBs), folded round to you, its 6BBs to call, he has 91BBs back, flop a set 1/8 times so if you stack him half the time you flop a set and fold if you dont then the call is fine. The tighter his 3 bet range the better! I dont see how you could fold a pair in that situation when you can so easily stack sum1 with an over pair.
Posted by BlackFish3

In the q you asked....you said we had no reads,how do you know their not 3betting 20% of hands with no reads.

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

In Response to Re: what now? : In the q you asked....you said we had no reads,how do you know their not 3betting 20% of hands with no reads .
Posted by DeuceAK-47

If you have no reads, you don't start assuming they are 3 betting 20% lol

DeuceAK_47

In Response to Re: what now?:

In Response to Re: what now? : If you have no reads, you don't start assuming they are 3 betting 20% lol
Posted by beaneh

I dont lol but its possible,my main point was that you have not got the implied odds to call with 22 which you agree with.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about the AQs hand deep as it looks like know1 is going to change their mind ;-)

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: what now?:

In Response to Re: what now? : Fold 22 in this spot. Sets are hard to flop, people are hard to stack oop. 
Posted by beaneh

would you fold hands like 88 oop to a 3 bet if its readless then?

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

In Response to Re: what now? : would you fold hands like 88 oop to a 3 bet if its readless then?
Posted by BlackFish3

100bb deep you open and get 3 bet by someone who you have no reads on and who you haven't seen be active or 3 bet before then yeah just pass and make a note that you are unhappy with that person and would like to stack them in the near future. If you open again and they 3 bet you and you have to fold you either have to work out that they are 3betting you with too many hands and politely tell them that that's not on and they need to stop or you need to tighten up your opening range so that when you do get 3 bet you can continue. Or you can always just massively reduce your 4 betting standards and become all spewy.

And Deuces  AQs 200bb deep when we have the limited reads that he has overpair and that he wont fold it nor fear getting it all in on this flop means it's a fold pre. Personally I call pre mostly, and bet 3bet shove the flop absolutely delighted with having 4 cards of the same colour (that's nearly a frush). The whole point i'm getting at is that reads allow us to play more hands and with more confidence.

freechips1

so beaeh gets it all in on the flop. i was unsure if you would say 4bet pre and fold to a shove.
this thread has wrecked my head and gave me alot to think about over the next few weeks.
last night with this thread playing on my mind i think i played the worst poker i have played in a long time witch also made me lose sleep so im now a bit tired, time for red bull and pro pluss me thinks.
i would like to thank beaneh for his posts although you have gave me a headach. 
one thing i cant understand is you say so much is read dependant, how do you have reads when playing so many tables? i play 8 tables max and the only info i will have is what players r tight or loose, i have some good reads on a few of the regs but a unknown player its tight or loose. 

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

so beaeh gets it all in on the flop. i was unsure if you would say 4bet pre and fold to a shove. this thread has wrecked my head and gave me alot to think about over the next few weeks. last night with this thread playing on my mind i think i played the worst poker i have played in a long time witch also made me lose sleep so im now a bit tired, time for red bull and pro pluss me thinks. i would like to thank beaneh for his posts although you have gave me a headach.  one thing i cant understand is you say so much is read dependant, how do you have reads when playing so many tables? i play 8 tables max and the only info i will have is what players r tight or loose, i have some good reads on a few of the regs but a unknown player its tight or loose. 
Posted by freechips1

Think about it this way. You are in Varneys seat and think of the villain ie you, as a tight solid player who is maybe inexperienced due to recently moving up. So you are deep and this is higher stakes than you would normally always play. 

How is he going to feel if he bets the flop and gets raised or if he checks you bet and he raises. If he c/r the flop and you move all in he is gonna most likely be like 'doh' then have to decide whether he had a plan to c/r get it in or what. He may now suddenly fold the best hand after putting more money in the pot because you wouldn't put 200 bb in without a set and only sometimes possibly have the nut flush draw. To b3b the flop you will need literally AKss or AQss, or 77/66/22 (whatever makes sets) .

If he checks the flop and calls your bet then the pot is increasing in size, you are still in position, you now have the initiative and can still have sets etc in your range, whereas he is reduced to overpairs. If you both know he has an overpair then he is basically going to have to shoot himself in the face because you can be putting money in when you beat his overpair and checking back seeing a free river if you haven't improved. The problem for him is if you both know he has an overpair and you are betting on a card that doesn't seem to have reduced the strength of his hand and doesn't bring in any of the major draws you could still very easily be value betting the sets you bet the flop with and he is going to have to be in a guessing game deep oop, which is a very good thing for you.

Try thinking through all the different turn cards that could come once you get past the flop and how you would play those. 

The only way to gain reads is to play hands with people, watch them play hands with other people, see what hands they go to showdown with and how, try to use what you've seen to determine why they go to showdown the way they do and infer from that how they think about poker and the different situations that can come up. Some decisions that without reads are snap folds turn into snap insta calls and this can really help your winrate.

For example, I played a hand yesterday against a relative unknown who I had a few notes on (though this last month I have barely made any notes due to being on 12+ tables all the time). 

Basically the hand boiled down to him calling my pf raise calling me on the flop in position, calling me on the turn on a draw heavy card and then betting the river when the main draw got there for about 2/3 the pot with a small pause. Now I looked up at the table and thought meh great river, poo gotta fold that, then saw the yellow sticker saying notes and opened it up, the first line said something along the lines of 'called down + raised flush completing river as bluff'. So instantly my mind goes from easy fold to most likely have to call this and lo and behold he had whiffed some random random hand and decided to bluff with it on the end.

Btw I think that 

raise call > 4 bet fold > fold preflop.

Also fwiw, when the table broke last night and we played HU for 15 mins (sorry for no reply was in mini view) you played well. The AT hand I thought you played well up until the turn, calling the flop is mandatory for you with the board being so dry and you having such a strong holding for HU. However when I continue on the turn with the board becoming more drawy heavy you want to raise there to protect the times you pick up a draw and cant profitably call and to get value from worse made hands that have picked up a gutshot or something and may continue. I obviously would have had to bet fold the turn with the holding I had. 

freechips1

the HU game was good, the AT hand, i wasnted max value i was happy to stack off to a set or 2 pair, why did i flat the turn? i didnt wanna take away the bluff from you, i know you can and will fire 3 streets so was happy to call the turn an let you fire again on the river. If i could of seen your cards i would of called the turn.
If i had raised the flop or turn you fold.
i have done this same play many times and a fair few i have let the villan hiy his draw, we live and learn.
along the same lines as that same hand is anoyher point i would like your opinion on. If i am playing a agro player and sat deep i will sometimes check call all the way down lets say with 99 on a Q45 flop, i dont wanna reraise as he is nuts and could push with 77,88 then i would have to fold. i have had many times where villan has had a draw and hit. it seems to be a fine line between check calling for pot controll and letting villan hit a draw. any advice on this matter would be great.

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

the HU game was good, the AT hand, i wasnted max value i was happy to stack off to a set or 2 pair, why did i flat the turn? i didnt wanna take away the bluff from you, i know you can and will fire 3 streets so was happy to call the turn an let you fire again on the river. If i could of seen your cards i would of called the turn. If i had raised the flop or turn you fold. i have done this same play many times and a fair few i have let the villan hiy his draw, we live and learn. along the same lines as that same hand is anoyher point i would like your opinion on. If i am playing a agro player and sat deep i will sometimes check call all the way down lets say with 99 on a Q45 flop, i dont wanna reraise as he is nuts and could push with 77,88 then i would have to fold. i have had many times where villan has had a draw and hit. it seems to be a fine line between check calling for pot controll and letting villan hit a draw. any advice on this matter would be great.
Posted by freechips1

on that AT hand I would never shove the river if I missed because there are no draws out and you've called two bets already. You must have a made hand therefore my 4 high or whatever it was would have been check folded 100% of the time. Shoving the turn not only prices out my random draws but can also get me to stick the rest in as a big dog.

It's fine to induce from an aggro player especially 100bb deep but once you start getting deeper you will get yourself into alot of trouble.  Capable players will be both continuing and giving up on their bluffs and you will have no clue where you are at which will cause you to make mistakes.  You need to balance the strength of your hand on the board with the likelihood of him improving (obviously dependant on what hand range you put them on). Make sure that when you are raising you can represent bluffs/draws.

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

In Response to Re: what now? : on that AT hand I would never shove the river if I missed because there are no draws out and you've called two bets already. You must have a made hand therefore my 4 high or whatever it was would have been check folded 100% of the time. Shoving the turn not only prices out my random draws but can also get me to stick the rest in as a big dog. It's fine to induce from an aggro player especially 100bb deep but once you start getting deeper you will get yourself into alot of trouble.  Capable players will be both continuing and giving up on their bluffs and you will have no clue where you are at which will cause you to make mistakes.  You need to balance the strength of your hand on the board with the likelihood of him improving (obviously dependant on what hand range you put them on). Make sure that when you are raising you can represent bluffs/draws.
Posted by beaneh

eg what's the best way to get paid with 99 on 994 r if you call a raise on the button from a capable thinking reg in EP?

..................

answer is raise most likely. any ideas as to why?

freechips1

why do you raise with quads? the early pos raise could be aakk,qq,jj. if you flat on flop he will now try to control the pot size. by raising you r saying i dont have the 9, i am bluffing the 9, or i also have a overpair like tens, so you could get it all in on the flop.
the villan could also think you have underpair and he will try and rep the 9 with hands like AK,AQ so he will reraise you again. am i right? if so can i have a gold star? LMAO

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

why do you raise with quads? the early pos raise could be aakk,qq,jj. if you flat on flop he will now try to control the pot size. by raising you r saying i dont have the 9, i am bluffing the 9, or i also have a overpair like tens, so you could get it all in on the flop. the villan could also think you have underpair and he will try and rep the 9 with hands like AK,AQ so he will reraise you again. am i right? if so can i have a gold star? LMAO
Posted by freechips1

Run out of gold stars am afraid. But yea this is what i'm getting at. By raising a paired board against someone who can read hands you are representing a bluff essentially. So either you can get rebluffed or they will call you with whatever hand they have and let you 'keep bluffing it off'. By flatting the flop and then suddenly putting in loads of action on later streets you are really representing the hand you have ie the nuts on the flop.

freechips1

i think this is correct vs most players but what about a agro player or a tilted player?(i have seen alot of regs super tilt and spew like mad) if my rep is tight and he will fire all streets with air, i have pos, should i try and look weak in this spot?

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

i think this is correct vs most players but what about a agro player? if my rep is tight and he will fire all streets with air, i have pos, should i try and look weak in this spot?
Posted by freechips1

Will he fire all streets with air though? It's going to depend how the board runs out. Against a weaker player then raising works if they will stack off with any pair anyway regardless of the board and calling works if suddenly shoving all in on the river is going to get you paid.  All plays should be based on your read but my point was that you need to think about all possible ways to play a hand.

freechips1

what about the check calling for pot control vs agro? or should you make a dession on flop if your ahead and raise?

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

what about the check calling for pot control vs agro? or should you make a dession on flop if your ahead and raise?
Posted by freechips1

You want to have a game plan for playing an aggressive opponent in general not just c/c alot. How often do you check raise the flop and with what sorts of hand and on what sort of boards?

freechips1

i can c raise on flop with flush/straight draw vs agro and vs some villan be happy to get it all in.
if villan is very agro with a set or 2 pair (if board is not draw heavy) i will flat flop if turn is a total blank i will flat again (depending on size of pot, if pot is still small i need to get some in), if scare card hits turn i reraise. i have this thing of letting agro players bluff into me, is this wrong?

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

i can c raise on flop with flush/straight draw vs agro and vs some villan be happy to get it all in. if villan is very agro with a set or 2 pair (if board is not draw heavy) i will flat flop if turn is a total blank i will flat again (depending on size of pot, if pot is still small i need to get some in), if scare card hits turn i reraise. i have this thing of letting agro players bluff into me, is this wrong?
Posted by freechips1

no but you might want to re-think your phrasing and think of aggro players as semi-bluffing into you because if they are any good they wont just always bet bet bet with nothing and give you money.

freechips1

thanks for all your advice beaneh, this has been a great thread and i hope people have learnt alot from it, i know i have.

OMahonyO

Ive loved this thread, and will probably keep coming back to it for a re-read.

I think we should have a `Ask Beaneh` sticky thread here, what do we think.  Beaneh, you dont get a say lol.

beaneh

In Response to Re: what now?:

Ive loved this thread, and will probably keep coming back to it for a re-read. I think we should have a `Ask Beaneh` sticky thread here, what do we think.  Beaneh, you dont get a say lol.
Posted by OMahonyO

hmm you wanna be careful just because someone posts something on a forum doesn't mean it's right. You have to be able to read it understand it and see why it's right, and then think about how you can use that understanding in the future. Also you want more than just my or one opinion, tis only a game and there are no right answers because reads etc always come into play.