Should i of called with pocket fives???

mr_mbro

With the greatest respect Bonniedog, this was a 2 day tourny with blind levels of 45 mins so not your normal 7min push fest online. the amount Davey had at that time of the tourny was still enough to wait and get others off. I doubt very much, with the standard fo the field, which included a wsop winner, a gukpt winner,ex apat world champ, and many professionals,that any of the players left in at that stage were donkaments.

VIRUSXXX

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : Nice Post, Sir. What is this Shreddies thing you speak of, please?
Posted by Tikay10

LOL you know very well who the Shrewdies are, but for everyone else - they are a bunch of online pros - who are currently out in Vegas winning ma dimez lol

VIRUSXXX

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

first of all you have to ask yourself if .... A. Do you want to risk pretty much your tournament on a low pair thats at BEST 50-50 and at worst facing an over pair. Really when do you see 22 33 44 when you call an all in with 55, not very often. In this case when you called it was pretty much a dream situation for 55. As soon as you CALLED, you went from playing poker to gambling. B. What is the BB going to do, you may well thought the Button was "stealing" but he could have been "stealing" with 67 at the very least ( coin toss) and the BB might be sat there with AA. Does the BB have you covered for your stack ? C. How much you had in the pot. 6k ? Do you really need to be calling with what was a very vunerable hand? You wasnt committed at all. D. can you pass this hand and then move at the blinds from the button next hand? Reverse the situation.... A2 went all in from the button, his mind set was what ranges he put you and the bb to call with was pretty small... AA-99 AK AQs....pretty small %, he had what 100k ? theres 25k out there for free...his A looks pretty good in this spot, to win an uncontested pot for 25% of his stack. In his mind the only hands that would require a call is such a small % that this play, with pretty much any 2 cards is profitable....Of course you can only do this so often then the other players will catch on and their calling hand requirement % go up. So IMO, it was a bad call. You could have waited for better spots, the very next hand certainly being one. You think the BB will call with Q8 if you had pushed 170k and you had not just lost a massive pot. No chance. And you would have been sat there with nearly 200k. But congrats on getting that far, you must have done something right... All these hands should be stored in the memory bank for situations in the future. You get the chips in first then great, you have 2 chances of winning, 1 by winning the pot uncontested, and 2, your hand holds up. By doing it first you increase your chances of winning by 50% or proberly statisically more. Theres my 2 pence. Sorry if i sound critical. Just with the stack you had in relation to the blinds, you should fold 55 instant to an all in of that size. I think the only hands that I would be calling there are JJ-AA AK AKs AQs , everythingelse I muck instant and wait for a better spot,  calling requirements vary depending on how you percieve the player to be and how hes been playing. I sat with Wayne on the first day and he seemed very tight, donno how much he stepped up later in the TNY but seemed to be solid to me only playing his cards. So I got a pretty limited hand range to call with. Liam
Posted by LB44

Just a quick note,

blinds were 5 / 10 with a 1k ante
Davey was in the BB
IF he loses, he still has a stack that most players at the table need to consider before calling -  and one "steal" means he adds 25% (ish) to his stack.

The q8 call was rather loose unless the opponent had sufficient amount of chips to do it.

Davey imo - don't beat yourself up over this -
Tikay makes a great point about with his non linear equations - the only thing is - if the player to your left is loose with his calling ranges then the percentages begin to even out again.

The fact is you went for the win, hindsight is perfect, but at this stage you need to  take every opportunity afforded to you. You made a good read, you got outdrawn. It happens to the best of us.

But it wasn't your tournament life on  the line....

bonniedog

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

With the greatest respect Bonniedog, this was a 2 day tourny with blind levels of 45 mins so not your normal 7min push fest online. the amount Davey had at that time of the tourny was still enough to wait and get others off. I doubt very much, with the standard fo the field, which included a wsop winner, a gukpt winner,ex apat world champ, and many professionals,that any of the players left in at that stage were donkaments.
Posted by mr_mbro

All tournys end up as a pre flop push fest. I dont play them as you work hard playing proper poker, then when it comes to deciding who gets the main prizes, you might as well log onto sky bingo. Just giving my advice and thats play cash if you want a game of skill or play tournys if you like to shove it in and cross your fingers.

LB44

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : Just a quick note, blinds were 5 / 10 with a 1k ante Davey was in the BB IF he loses, he still has a stack that most players at the table need to consider before calling -  and one "steal" means he adds 25% (ish) to his stack. The q8 call was rather loose unless the opponent had sufficient amount of chips to do it. Davey imo - don't beat yourself up over this - Tikay makes a great point about with his non linear equations - the only thing is - if the player to your left is loose with his calling ranges then the percentages begin to even out again. The fact is you went for the win, hindsight is perfect, but at this stage you need to  take every opportunity afforded to you. You made a good read, you got outdrawn. It happens to the best of us. But it wasn't your tournament life on  the line....
Posted by VIRUSXXX

Sorry I thought he was in the SB
Im sorry but I cant see calling with 5 5 for 60% of your stack and  in what was proberly the biggest tournament of his life with 45min blinds is gonna be a good call. I proberly even fold J J in this spot.
If I had pushed from the Button, I would be very disappionted to see 5 5 call for nearly 2/3rds of his stack.
But hey, this is the beauty of Poker, what is 1 man's Call is anothers fold. On a purly mathimatical basis, fold would have been the best option. IMO

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

first of all you have to ask yourself if .... A. Do you want to risk pretty much your tournament on a low pair thats at BEST 50-50 and at worst facing an over pair. Really when do you see 22 33 44 when you call an all in with 55, not very often. In this case when you called it was pretty much a dream situation for 55. As soon as you CALLED, you went from playing poker to gambling. B. What is the BB going to do, you may well thought the Button was "stealing" but he could have been "stealing" with 67 at the very least ( coin toss) and the BB might be sat there with AA. Does the BB have you covered for your stack ? C. How much you had in the pot. 6k ? Do you really need to be calling with what was a very vunerable hand? You wasnt committed at all. D. can you pass this hand and then move at the blinds from the button next hand? Reverse the situation.... A2 went all in from the button, his mind set was what ranges he put you and the bb to call with was pretty small... AA-99 AK AQs....pretty small %, he had what 100k ? theres 25k out there for free...his A looks pretty good in this spot, to win an uncontested pot for 25% of his stack. In his mind the only hands that would require a call is such a small % that this play, with pretty much any 2 cards is profitable....Of course you can only do this so often then the other players will catch on and their calling hand requirement % go up. So IMO, it was a bad call. You could have waited for better spots, the very next hand certainly being one. You think the BB will call with Q8 if you had pushed 170k and you had not just lost a massive pot. No chance. And you would have been sat there with nearly 200k. But congrats on getting that far, you must have done something right... All these hands should be stored in the memory bank for situations in the future. You get the chips in first then great, you have 2 chances of winning, 1 by winning the pot uncontested, and 2, your hand holds up. By doing it first you increase your chances of winning by 50% or proberly statisically more. Theres my 2 pence. Sorry if i sound critical. Just with the stack you had in relation to the blinds, you should fold 55 instant to an all in of that size. I think the only hands that I would be calling there are JJ-AA AK AKs AQs , everythingelse I muck instant and wait for a better spot,  calling requirements vary depending on how you percieve the player to be and how hes been playing. I sat with Wayne on the first day and he seemed very tight, donno how much he stepped up later in the TNY but seemed to be solid to me only playing his cards. So I got a pretty limited hand range to call with. Liam
Posted by LB44

HI liam thanks for the comments i put bthe question up so i could get peoples views and there has been a lot of good response with the outcome mainly being that i should of folded,i think the most relevent point you make is that i went from playing poker to gambling,and in my heart i knew it would be a gamble and took it so can't complain at the outcome.....(but i fold next time in same situation)

cheers mate dave...

LB44

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : HI liam thanks for the comments i put bthe question up so i could get peoples views and there has been a lot of good response with the outcome mainly being that i should of folded,i think the most relevent point you make is that i went from playing poker to gambling,and in my heart i knew it would be a gamble and took it so can't complain at the outcome.....(but i fold next time in same situation) cheers mate dave...
Posted by DAVEYZZ

A good question I have just thought of just now......If the SB would have flat called you. What is your next move? 29K in the pot, you have 55.

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : A good question I have just thought of just now......If the SB would have flat called you. What is your next move? 29K in the pot, you have 55.
Posted by LB44

i knew the right answer is to call a bet flop,but tbh i think i would of raised 5 blinds(50k) hoping for the fold then play the flop if he calls..

LB44

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : i knew the right answer is to call a bet flop,but tbh i think i would of raised 5 blinds(50k) hoping for the fold then play the flop if he calls..
Posted by DAVEYZZ

I definatly wouldnt check. Proberly the right answer would be to raise 40-50k or just shove allin , find out where you stand. You dont really wanna see a flop holding 55 in this situation. Unless he was trappy player, he wouldnt really be calling with anything big enough to call half his stack to then fold the flop if he missed, or push over the top of your 50k bet. Hence the reason why he pushed in the first place, effectivly taking his position dissadvantage and chip disadvantage away and put you to a very tough call.

What place did you end up ?

Tikay10

Great Thread this - arguably the best thread on the Sky Poker Forum so far.

Nice range of views & opinions, and all well put.

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

first of all daveyzz ........... you are bald and short !!!!!! 2nd if you knew he had A2 would you have called ??? im sure you going to say yes ... so how can u be judgemental of your play ??? your call was better than you expected you just got outdraw m8..... cya soon
Posted by themackem

lol cheers m8 love the pic by the way,when was that taken?
about ten stone ago??

unknown_username

OOOOOO this is so good. I'm really looking forward to Thursday's show!


Personally if he limps i'm shoving ;-) -Sometimes they have aces - most of the time that's extra dime in your stack.

Keep posting guys - Tikay and Michelle are gna have a massive task on their hands. - Oh and did I mention books can be won for the best answers!


Cheers Daveyzz!!!!!!

mr_mbro

Hi LB44,
This now becomes a totally different animal, because Davey would then have the option of becoming the agressor.
As he has said he would then raise 50k, thereby giving the other player the tough decision, and giving himself 2 ways of winning the pot. This what i meant by a better situation in one of my earlier posts.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

well done m8 think u where unlucky think ur chances of getting 55 throught r 50?50 a coin flip but cant famthon out ace 8 calling
Posted by joe759017

It was Q 8 that snap called not ace eight after davey lost with his pocket fives.    The caller had only a couple of thousand more chips as well at the time and basically called for his tournament!!!

LB44

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

OOOOOO this is so good. I'm really looking forward to Thursday's show! Personally if he limps i'm shoving ;-) -Sometimes they have aces - most of the time that's extra dime in your stack. Keep posting guys - Tikay and Michelle are gna have a massive task on their hands. - Oh and did I mention books can be won for the best answers! Cheers Daveyzz!!!!!!
Posted by Sky_Ling

Hopefully my 4am "post" ( essay lol) giving a free masterclass of later tournament strategy after 5 hours of sit and go's maybe worth my effort hehehe  I love reading and studying poker books....

I wholeheartly reccommend anybody to read Dan Harrington's Vol 1 and 2 on Tournament strategy. Very good read!

LB44

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

Hi LB44, This now becomes a totally different animal, because Davey would then have the option of becoming the agressor. As he has said he would then raise 50k, thereby giving the other player the tough decision, and giving himself 2 ways of winning the pot. This what i meant by a better situation in one of my earlier posts.
Posted by mr_mbro

Totally agree with you, get your chips in first, put the tough decision to them and increase your chances of winning the pot by 50%. But dont do it too often!! It all depends on your table image for these risky plays to work as to be honest , you dont want any action when you hold 55! The best outcome would be adding a nice 24k to your stack uncontested.

N1CK

iIn Response to Should i of called with pocket fives???:

Hi all just asking  opinions on my penultimate hand in the sky final at dtd. everyone folds to the small blind and he pushes all in on me in the big blind,i look down at pocket fives and we have a chip count its 102k to call and i have 170k,i suspect he is on a steal but also realise he could have two overcards,after thinking for a short while i call he shows ace two of diamonds,so i only have to dodge one overcard but the inevitable happens and he spikes an ace on turn,the next hand gets folded to me in small blind and i push for 74k on a 10kblind with 1k antes(25k in the pot) and bb instantly calls. do you think i should of folded my fives and do you think the bb should of folded his hand (he had q8 and hit an 8). my reasoning for making a fairly loose call is that it would of put me into second place with a real possibility of winning the tourny
Posted by DAVEYZZ

m

N1CK

In Response to Should i of called with pocket fives???:

Hi all just asking  opinions on my penultimate hand in the sky final at dtd. everyone folds to the small blind and he pushes all in on me in the big blind,i look down at pocket fives and we have a chip count its 102k to call and i have 170k,i suspect he is on a steal but also realise he could have two overcards,after thinking for a short while i call he shows ace two of diamonds,so i only have to dodge one overcard but the inevitable happens and he spikes an ace on turn,the next hand gets folded to me in small blind and i push for 74k on a 10kblind with 1k antes(25k in the pot) and bb instantly calls. do you think i should of folded my fives and do you think the bb should of folded his hand (he had q8 and hit an 8). my reasoning for making a fairly loose call is that it would of put me into second place with a real possibility of winning the tourny
Posted by DAVEYZZ

i think the best play is to fold here, i can understand you want to gamble and build your stack but you should really wait for a better spot, at best you can only be racing here, if the seats were reversed i dont mind pushing this hand but id be only looking at taking the blinds and antes, these hands dont play well post flop so your not looking for action

Blight1

Just seen this hand being talked about on skypoker tv,im folding the pocket 5s all day everyday in tht situation, in fact i wouldnt even think about it, better situation bound to come round to get ur chips in imo

mickjenn1

some1 tell me wat booniedogs smokin so she keeps rantin on about cash and how she plays alls these tables WHO CARES.............. were on about a proper comp here boonie 45 min blids is hardly a donkfest, anyway dave i fold m8 but it was ur choice you must of doin somethin right 2 get where u did. keep up the good work likkle man  P.S ur round at the next event haah 

T_Force

In the Open this is a call, in an online tourney with 10 or even 12 minute blinds this is likely a call, but in a live tourney with 45 minute blinds? What's the rush? How would you feel afterwards when you look back at the tourney and you realise you lost half your stack with pocket 5's before tilting the rest off the very next hand? Given that you have an average enough stack, there's no pressure on you to call with such a marginal hand.

And what if you get dealt QQ in the next hand and your all-in gets called by the big stack with AK and your QQ holds? You're back where you started, when you could have been right up there with the chip leaders if you hadn't squandered your stack with lousy pocket fives! (happens to me all the time anyway)

I would however say this - the showdown value of snappo-calling (like VirusXXX would) with a FIST pump is great as long as you then hit a run of cards! Why? Because a lot of players will have you pegged as a loose donk. Now when you shove with your AA in early position, you get called by two players and you win bundles and bundles of lovely chips AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Blight1

wat was u position in the tourney at the time daveyzz?

Blight1

shoe in for the tshirt m8, good thread

LB44

Thanks for the kind words on last night's show tikay.

Liam

unknown_username

Just want to say a huge thank you to all of you who contributed to the show last night.
Tikay has reviewed all the answers sent in and decided that Ian Chapman's was most impressive, and therefore he takes the winners prize of 3 poker books. Great for downtime reading during the summer holiday ;-)

Two other Sky poker viewers who gave Ian a run for his money were Nicholas Stinson and Colin Wallace: As a bonus runner up prize we will also be sending Nicholas and Colin some token gifts too.

Thanks to all who entered!

Aisling

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

Thanks for the kind words on last night's show tikay. Liam
Posted by LB44

My pleasure Liam - I really like your style of playing & writing.

It's really hard to fathom how anyone would even dream of Calling in this spot with 5-5, but we all play the game different, & both plays (Pass or Call) have their merits.*

* Except the Call with 5-5.

PS - Terms & Conditions apply.

Tikay10

Many congrats to the book Winners - Ian has 3 Books on the way, & Nicholas Stinson & Colin Wallace both have "some stuff" on the way.

Did you know, by the way, that "Sky-Ling" is the Ladies World Pokler Champion? We are M-I-G-H-T-Y proud of her.

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

wat was u position in the tourney at the time daveyzz?
Posted by Blight1

hi m8 i was about 8th out of 16

Blight1

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : hi m8 i was about 8th out of 16
Posted by DAVEYZZ

wot paid? still think its a bad call but if u thinkin "going 4 the win"then maybe understandble, but if u thought tht there would be no thread

Blight1

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives???:

In Response to Re: Should i of called with pocket fives??? : My pleasure Liam - I really like your style of playing & writing. It's really hard to fathom how anyone would even dream of Calling in this spot with 5-5, but we all play the game different, & both plays (Pass or Call) have their merits.* * Except the Call with 5-5. PS - Terms & Conditions apply.
Posted by Tikay10

gotta luv the old fool