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RNG?
please leave this here mod4 / bernie / & skyrich
In order for this to be discussed properly ,
all views from all side must be ,
civil & not to complex for us mere mortals .
It would be great if skypoker put forward an RNG guy/gal from their side to
join in this civil RNG discussion .
SO TO START THE DISCUSSION GOING ,
IN SIMPLE TERMS ,
HOW DOES THE RNG WORK IN POKER SITES ?
DO ALL POKER SITES USE THE SAME RNG ?
Comments
Random isn't easy.
you might as well just give up poker imo.
Well I don't work for Sky but I have been a programmer for 15 years, worked on some gaming sites, so let me try and sum it up...
First of all, as many know, computers aren't too hot at generating random numbers on their own...they can create "pseudo-random numbers", but over time these will show patterns or bias because there is no actual randomness in the system. You would never notice in the short term but over millions of instances (shuffles) patterns would be there for those with the werewithall to track millions of games.
So, what people coding RNGs do is introduce one or more "seeds"...random input that allows the computer to generate numbers that are much closer to truly random. The classic seed is something called a unix time stamp, which is the way unix computers measure time...this is the number of seconds since Jan 1st 1970. A lot of very basic RNGs will use this because it's the simplest way of getting a new random(ish) number in most languages.
So that's a basic RNG, and if I set up a 9 person table using that RNG I can pretty much gaurentee we could play 9 handed for decades and you wouldn't spot any patterns. This is often where the "pseudo-random" distinction trips non geeks up...yes, it's not technically random, but it's so close it makes no practical difference in human terms.
So that's a basic RNG, but those used by gaming sites are MUCH more complex. They will use multiple seeds, and these will be much more random than a simple unix time stamp. Some examples of things used for seeds:
* Rate of radioactive decay in a small sample of material
* Static from a TV or radio broadcast randomly tuned to dead air
* Ambient noise from a busy environment (e.g. hang a highly sensitive microphone out in the street!)
* Tiny current fluctuations in an electrical system
So really that stuff is about as random as it gets, and gaming sites will most likely use multiple exotic seeds to feed their RNG.
Once you have your random numbers the deck is shuffled, and away we go. There are other steps along the way but it's boring tech stuff, and nothing Sky (or any other gaming company) would confirm in detail anyway.
So there you go...RNGs in a nutshell.
And if there's one single argument against the fixing arguments it's this: the RNGs of all sites are audited regularly by independant third parties to ensure randomness. This is a very sophisticated statistical audit that will look at overall hand distribution, frequency and value of outliers, ensuring the RNG is consistent across games, etc. Any sign of patterns and the gaming co is going to be in very hot water with their gaming comission and will be shut down pretty promptly if they don't fix it. The various juristictions used as gaming co bases make so much from the industry they simply can't afford *any* whiff of the games being fixed.
Phew, that turned out longer that I thought! At least I'll have something to quote in future when this invariably comes up though
Not that it really matters, tbh...it's quite possible to code a bad RNG, someone doing so once doesn't mean all RNGs are flawed. If an RNG is flawed and it's on a regulated site it will be spotted and action taken pretty quickly.
Let's clear this up now: pseudo-random is just a computer science term to differentiate computer generated numbers from "true" random numbers. It doesn't mean it's not random and for all practical purposes it is. Don't get hung up on that pseudo- bit! OK, so you're saying a deck dropped on the floor is random but a deck shuffled by an RNG is not? How about if that RNG had been fed it's seeds based on a deck that had been dropped on the floor by a real human? Because the methods I mentioned for feeding RNGs are *at least* as random as that.
I understand what you are saying about it being pseudo-random (dannymcs' post was most informative); what I am saying is that a RNG will still be more random than a human shuffling a deck of cards. Is complete and total randomness even possible?
In reality, though, you are not going to be able to spot any patterns with a virtual shuffle from a regulated RNG, and is just about as random as something can be.
Can I ask you a question as you obviously have a massive grudge against the online form of poker. Do you still play online? And if so, why?
If you choose to take "pseudo-random" as meaning "it's not random" that's your perogative, but that's not what it means. Anyone who's done a computer science degree or been involved in the field can tell you this.
* Each card in the deck is placed in an array, which is a way computers store/manage a set of data. An array looks like this:
$cards[1] = "As";
$cards[2] = "Ks";
$cards[3] = "Qs";
$cards[4] = "Js";
$cards[5] = "10s";
...etc...
$cards[52] = "1h";
* Each card in the deck is assigned a random number using the methods I mentioned above.
* Deck is then sorted from highest number to lowest to get a random shuffle. Some sites may do a "virtual cut" or introduce other stages, but that's about the size of it for the site I worked on. I'd be pretty surprised if other sites worked a great deal differently.
So as I say My main concerns and questions surround the effects that these algorythms, and in a more general sense player bots, have upon psuedo RNG's.
Please may I request that if anyone doubts that these algorythms or player bots exhist that they do a little research.
Once each of the cards has been assigned that number you then order the deck from highest to lowest (or vice versa), and you've got your starting deck.
The number of starting sequences is just the same as the number with a live deck...10 to the power of something silly or whatever it is.