RNG?

unknown_username

In my 4th email to the Alderney Gaming Commission I once again asked them to confirm or otherwise any checks they undertake relating to the post-shuffle distribution of cards.

I have received their reply and once again they have ducked the issue. Rather than answering my question (''do you make any checks relating to the distribution of the shuffled cards to the players'') they have said ........

''Please see the below link to the Alderney Gambling Control Commission’s Technical Standards document, which should contain all relevant information you require:''

It's a rather heavy document that covers the guidelines that operators should adhere to for on line gambling of all kinds ie. Poker, Slots. Roulette etc. All I keep asking for is a simple yes or no answer but they seem incapable of giving that. I'll trawl through it and see if anything is relevant.

So as a cliff - it's gone something like this:

''DO you check the RNG function''?

''YES''

''DO you make any checks post shuffle''?

''ERRRRR''

''DO you make any checks post shuffle''?

''ERRRRR''

''DO you make any checks post shuffle''?

''ERRRRR .......... HERE'S SOME BEDTIME READING TO KEEP YOU QUIET''

unknown_username

There is a section relating to the RNG which is as expected. 

The only reference I can find relating to post shuffle is this:

T Outcomes derived from the RNG are to be distributed within statistically 

expected bounds, including normal distribution.

(The T at the beginning means it is a technical requirement.)

That's very interesting ......Would anyone like to give their interpretation of that statement? 

Seagull158

In Response to Re: RNG ( on all poker sites ) A CIVIL DISCUSSION IN GENERAL CHAT:

There is a section relating to the RNG which is as expected.  The only reference to post shuffle is this: T Outcomes derived from the RNG are to be distributed within statistically  expected  bounds, including normal distribution. (The T at the beginning means it is a technical requirement.) That's very interesting ......Would anyone like to give their interpretation of that statement? 
Posted by elsadog

That statement worries the hell out of me. Back in 2009 I spent 3 months in email communication with the Alderney Gambling Commission, firstly trying to get some confidence in the randomness of the RNG and then on what checks they did to ensure that no post-shuffle manipulation of the cards was done. It would be pathetically easy to have a subroutine that replaced the randomly generated river card, for example, with another card remaining in the deck to produce a flush, straight, house or whatever (of course you can say "why would they" but there are reasons why they might as discussed earlier in the thread). I was completely and utterly stonewalled by the AGC in response to every email I sent them. I dont see why the outcomes from the RNG shouldn't just be distributed to the players at the table in the sequence that resulted from the RNG. If that's what it does then why doesn't it say that?
On the subject of the RNG itself, having read up on the flawed RNG that was cracked some years ago, I follow Danny;s argument that the RNGs used today effectively deal a random deck because the RNG does not "choose a deck", it generates a random number for each of the 52 cards and then sorts the cards in number sequence so the number of deck combinations vs the number of random numbers than can be generated by the computer is irrelevant. The only time it would be relevant is if you had more cards in the deck than the range of ransom numbers that can be generated. SInce there are always 52 cards and the number of random numbers is in the billions its never going to be a problem.
The biggest online poker scandal, in my recollection, was nothing to do with the RNG but was all about a "superuser" who had access to the server and was able to see all the other players hole cards.
Food for thought or should I go to area 51?

unknown_username

In Response to Re: RNG ( on all poker sites ) A CIVIL DISCUSSION IN GENERAL CHAT:

In Response to Re: RNG ( on all poker sites ) A CIVIL DISCUSSION IN GENERAL CHAT : That statement worries the hell out of me. Back in 2009 I spent 3 months in email communication with the Alderney Gambling Commission, firstly trying to get some confidence in the randomness of the RNG and then on what checks they did to ensure that no post-shuffle manipulation of the cards was done. It would be pathetically easy to have a subroutine that replaced the randomly generated river card, for example, with another card remaining in the deck to produce a flush, straight, house or whatever (of course you can say "why would they" but there are reasons why they might as discussed earlier in the thread). I was completely and utterly stonewalled by the AGC in response to every email I sent them. I dont see why the outcomes from the RNG shouldn't just be distributed to the players at the table in the sequence that resulted from the RNG. If that's what it does then why doesn't it say that? On the subject of the RNG itself, having read up on the flawed RNG that was cracked some years ago, I follow Danny;s argument that the RNGs used today effectively deal a random deck because the RNG does not "choose a deck", it generates a random number for each of the 52 cards and then sorts the cards in number sequence so the number of deck combinations vs the number of random numbers than can be generated by the computer is irrelevant. The only time it would be relevant is if you had more cards in the deck than the range of ransom numbers that can be generated. SInce there are always 52 cards and the number of random numbers is in the billions its never going to be a problem. The biggest online poker scandal, in my recollection, was nothing to do with the RNG but was all about a "superuser" who had access to the server and was able to see all the other players hole cards. Food for thought or should I go to area 51?
Posted by Seagull158

It was because of that very scandal that new measures were brought in to safeguard from that happening. This is where the 'fair to all' term comes from. Sub-routines were added to ensure that no player could dominate the game. It's those sub-routines and algorithms that come into play after the RNG has generated the numbers that are of concern.

loonytoons

Sky_Peter Posts: 7 First: 20/5/2009 Last: 6/8/2009

We've been somewhat surprised by the popularity of discussions focused on randomness or fairness of our poker application. As stated elsehwere our software is fully independently tested (by industry-leading experts) and we're regulated by the AGCC - however maybe there's little point to going over this again. So - we thought we'd provide a dedicated area for our conspiracy theorists to get things off their chest, maybe feel better and still continue to play on our site! I'll leave you with a wee thought... Q. What does the random number generator in our poker software actually do? A. It shuffles (very effectively) 52 cards once per hand - and once only That's all really. For example - if there are 6 people seated at the table - the software shuffles the cards - then deals 2 cards per player and the three flop cards. Which players then fold, call or bet is irrelevent - the turn card is the same card that was next in the deck from the original shuffle. In this example it would be the 16th card (given the numbers seated at the table before the hand was dealt). The same applies to the river card - it is the card that is next in the deck from the original shuffle. In this example the river card would be the 17th card in the deck from the original shuffle. So the question is - with only one shuffle per hand  and no randomisation between the flop, turn and river cards being dealt - plus no prior knowledge (how could we?) of which players will fold - bluff, slow play etc - how do we still manage to produce all these bad beats? Answers on a postcard... This is what sky peter says, in my mind he is saying that the cards are shuffled before each hand, and when the hand is played out all the cards and the order in which they are dealt are predermined, if this is true then either there are thousands of shuffled hands  waiting in line, or as elsa says, they would not be able to randomly select all the sequences in the time allocated, just a small percentage. As for the earlier point aboutoutcomes, i reckon it means that the expected bad beats/wins etc are relative to there percentages of occuring, not only on the flop but also the turn and the river?

AJW1976

playtech software inc, lol!  4 times I make irish open main event sattlite on other networks and 4 times I have lost.....

Second most important assumption I make is that they fixx up the hands in the latter stages or bubble of eaach and every tourney so that YOU dont win...ie semi-coolers  ak vs aq or aa vs kk.

Thirdly ,maybe everyones detachment or shall I say discconnection is moreoverly deduced by the fact that the hand packet data can be and is spoofed over a wired connection...

spoof btw means to falsify or overide the initial data that was filtered through the network router.

What network was sky using before they switched over to playtech anyone please? sorry I just dont trust playtech whatsoever,.

unknown_username

''As for the earlier point aboutoutcomes, i reckon it means that the expected bad beats/wins etc are relative to there percentages of occuring, not only on the flop but also the turn and the river?'' - Loonytoons

Of course they are as expected, they were generated by the RNG. How the hands are delivered to the table is the point in question. In other words there are 6 sets of 2 hole cards generated and 5 board cards. I have asked the AGCC what checks there are to ensure that those cards go in order from the small blind around the table and are not allocated according to fair for all algorithms that prevents anyone from dictating the game.

They don't seem willing to answer that question. The section quoted relates to the distribution of outcomes or sequences. The bad beat win or loss is already determined depending on which players take part in the hand. Every sequence of cards from the RNg is a pre-determined outcome at that point. Which hands can win or lose is set. It's where those hands are delivered that matters.

unknown_username

Another important point is this. Nowhere does it say that all sequences generated have to be used ie. delivered to the table.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: RNG ( on all poker sites ) A CIVIL DISCUSSION IN GENERAL CHAT:

playtech software inc, lol!  4 times I make irish open main event sattlite on other networks and 4 times I have lost..... Second most important assumption I make is that they fixx up the hands in the latter stages or bubble of eaach and every tourney so that YOU dont win...ie semi-coolers  ak vs aq or aa vs kk. Thirdly ,maybe everyones detachment or shall I say discconnection is moreoverly deduced by the fact that the hand packet data can be and is spoofed over a wired connection... spoof btw means to falsify or overide the initial data that was filtered through the network router. What network was sky using before they switched over to playtech anyone please? sorry I just dont trust playtech whatsoever,.
Posted by AJW1976

Sky Poker was never on Playtech, & is not on Playtech now.

Sky Poker is not on a network, & never has been.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: RNG ( on all poker sites ) A CIVIL DISCUSSION IN GENERAL CHAT:

In Response to Re: RNG ( on all poker sites ) A CIVIL DISCUSSION IN GENERAL CHAT : Sky Poker was never on Playtech, & is not on Playtech now. Sky Poker is not on a network, & never has been.
Posted by Tikay10

You've been peeping again haven't you )

loonytoons

In Response to Re: RNG ( on all poker sites ) A CIVIL DISCUSSION IN GENERAL CHAT:

In my 4th email to the Alderney Gaming Commission I once again asked them to confirm or otherwise any checks they undertake relating to the post-shuffle distribution of cards. I have received their reply and once again they have ducked the issue. Rather than answering my question (''do you make any checks relating to the distribution of the shuffled cards to the players'') they have said ........ ''Please see the below link to the Alderney Gambling Control Commission’s Technical Standards document, which should contain all relevant information you require:'' It's a rather heavy document that covers the guidelines that operators should adhere to for on line gambling of all kinds. All I keep asking for is a simple yes or no answer but they seem incapable of giving that. I'll trawl through it and see if anything is relevant. So as a cliff - it's gone something like this: ''DO you check the RNG function''? ''YES'' ''DO you make any checks post shuffle''? ''ERRRRR'' ''DO you make any checks post shuffle''? ''ERRRRR' ' ''DO you make any checks post shuffle''? ''ERRRRR .......... HERE'S SOME BEDTIME READING TO KEEP YOU QUIET' '
Posted by elsadog

I just read the official AGC site and its indipendently run by a chairman a three others, so thats four guys (or gals) running the show and its a tax haven something or other for gaming sites and if you have a gambling turnover of <1m its £70000 per year for the licence, if its <5m a year its £100000 a year for the licence and if its 7.5m its £140000 per annum, now im not saying that they are bent, far from it, but when you charge those sorts of fees it sure helps to keep your customers on side, and you'd defo make sure the stats are consistent with your customers requirements and definately wouldnt go looking for too many irregularities 'outside the box' so to speak? Actually reminds me of the movies rating censors, these are independent and they are paid loadsa money to watch movies and give them a rating ie PG. In the last year out of all the thousands of films, they altered the rating in less than 5 cases, the film companies tell them what they think the rating should be so that they can reach as many paying customers as possible, and they 'almost always' agree with the companies! Saying that i just hit a great bad beat on a guy
'

unknown_username

Just to sum up on the subject of post RNG distribution.

I have emailed the Alderney Gambling Control Commission with a simple question - ''What checks do you or your agents undertake with regards to the delivery of post RNG card sequences to the poker table?'' 

I have had prompt replies to each email but at no time have they attempted to answer my question. I asked for a simple yes or no answer as to whether they undertake any tests. Again no answer. They have sent me their Technical Standards Document which applies to all licensed poker rooms. In this I can find only one item (in the RNG section) that appears to relate to what happens after the RNG:

''Outcomes derived from the RNG are to be distributed within statistically expected 

bounds, including normal distribution''

This is open to interpretation and I have sent a further email asking for clarification.

Why the AGCC should be so evasive on this subject is puzzling to say the least. 

I have also sent an email, asking the same question, to the Chief Technical Officer of TST Global, the company that tests the RNG and associated software, on many poker sites around the world. So far I have had no response. 

As well as undertaking RNG certifications this company actually designs the associated software that is used on a variety of on line gambling sites, including poker sites.

 

FINS

Great thread,

I would like to ask a question regarding the times when i get all in ahead on the turn or flop and before the miracle card or cards arrive i am slowrolled by the software,there is a delay,only happens in a big pot it is as if the software is searching for the miracle card,must admit this has happened in my favour too and is pretty rare.but it really grates me when i see it.

AJW1976

Tikay I was naturally under the disticnt impression sky poker was on the playtech software my complete apolgies if Im wrong here,....

Just thought It was considering other aspects like for example sky bingo are on the playtech software.

Thanks Tikay for puttin me right there ,.You know how I feel about thier rubbishy software.

Now I know its not has really made my day ,I still run like superman on your tourneys .....xx

unknown_username

In Response to Re: RNG ( on all poker sites ) A CIVIL DISCUSSION IN GENERAL CHAT:

Great thread, I would like to ask a question regarding the times when i get all in ahead on the turn or flop and before the miracle card or cards arrive i am slowrolled by the software,there is a delay,only happens in a big pot it is as if the software is searching for the miracle card,must admit this has happened in my favour too and is pretty rare.but it really grates me when i see it.
Posted by FINS

I would doubt this is what you think it is. IF it was searching you wouldn't notice because it would be almost instantaneous. It's more likely server lag. Also if the RNG is to pass, what are rigorous tests, then all the cards generated would have to be played. 

The questions I would like to ask relate to the ''security algorithms'' which are there to prevent players from dominating the game. Sequences of cards from the RNG are fixed, however, the way the sequence is delivered to the players is unclear and the AGCC and the RNG Auditors are, for the moment, avoiding the question. 

unknown_username

I've found some very interesting correspondence from an on line casino operator to TST Global ( the company who verify the RNG. 

Apparently the operator is very unhappy about the validity of the RNG certificates that TST supply. He goes on to question changes to the seeding which affect the outcome from the RNG. They are also being stonewalled by TST who have now stopped answering their correspondence.

I have to go out now but I'll post some extracts later............ watch this space.

NoseyBonk

Watch out for black SUVs parked outside your house....

donkeyplop

Bernie has hit the doomswitch!!

You have been moooooooooooooooooved.

Sky_Bernie

Hi all,

I think this thread has now run its course and I am therefore closing it.

I have also added the link below which will take you to the section of our FAQ's which answers all the questions raised about our RNG, it's testing and the AGCC who ensure that we operate within their strict guidelines.

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/getting-started/faqs#J

Kind regards,

Bernie