You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
Sky Poker forums will be temporarily unavailable from 11pm Wednesday July 25th.
Sky Poker Forums is upgrading its look! Stay tuned for the big reveal!
What is really Going on to get good players looking to leave this site?
People will always moan and become concerned when they suffer a bad beat however, recently i am finding his has ben happening far too much so decided to do some research to find out what is going on.
Firstly, i have noticed that the RCG (random Card Generator) seems to deal a lot of closely related cards as well as a matching flop. For instance sometimes i see a lot of paired flops and other times we get a lot of 2 of the same suit flops.
Secondly, I have noticed that the more you raise the more people seem to call when they shouldn't.
Thirdly, the most amount of all ins pre flop, i see, is pair on pair or A* verses pair.
But the sad truth is that 95% of players playing tournament poker on this site really don't have a clue. They don't understand what a raise is and they don't understand about Kicker.
This is born out by the following fact and try it for yourself.
First or second hand Raise UTG for 200 and if you get on person calling thn is likly you will get 4 more.
Look at the hands people raise with and thn realise they really don't know what they are doing.
More importanly look at the hands people are calling with without any need and then you will realise why this site is so bad.
Evertime my radar tells me i have a donk at the table, usually either through stupid bet sizing, all in for no reason i go have a look at sharkscope and, lo and behold they have lost 2000 in as many games. Yes they do hav an odd win but, in the main their graph is 45 degrees DOWN.
Because of the amount of bad players then people don't know where thy are, is thir AK good or dominated, are they raising wih QQ or 2 4.
Finally I think is time SKY invests time on their channel devoted to explaining good solid play. Sizzling and I will happily pu together a weekly programme if the Sky managmen team wish called ABC of good poker or "Spot the Donkey".
I am sure people would find it very funny as we are both quite dry and conroversial but maybe i would help becaus Tikay saying on the telly, if you want to play a hand then you must raise is fine but, firstly people don't understand what a good hand is and, secondly they have no idea of how to fold or when to fold or why to fold.
Players need to understand the basics first before trying to bluff and realise that bluffing isn't a major part of the game compared with the best hand winning.
Don't get me wrong bluffing is key to overall success bu only when the table isn't full of calling idiots who have nothing and then get lucky.
Please SKY if you want a good standard of tournament player we need to sort this out because NO ONE wants to b beaten by someone who should never be in the pot, hasn't a clue, is playing Bingo and catches 5 cards to get very lucky.
So, guys, PLEASE don't le this thread end up being about some form of SKY bashing or Bad beat syndome or RCG moan!
Share your thoughts and, if you think a weekly programme about solid poker and good teaching is of value then say so. You all know I enjoy dry sarcasic commens when I am playing and find yet another donk and so does Sizzling. Well, we would raher they played better and had more fun so the stupid play diminshed and people started to play well.
OH, this is about TOURNAMENT poker not Cash.. Whats the difference, well its simple, you lose in tournament and you are out whereas in Cash you lose a hand and move on to your next opportunity. If you get donked in Cash within a few hands the DONK will have donated all their winnings BUT in a torney you are out and the DONK pays someone else off and loses too!!
FINALLY, positive comments only whatever side you are on.
THANKS!! MM
Comments
Absolute superb thread AND post!! couldnt have said it better myself.......
Hope you do well majicman ive been watching you for a while now.!things will turn around youll see,,.......glgl
Sorry but i couldn't see any of your detailed research in that post,except for your observations,
must of took some serious research that post..........
Hi Jock,
thank you for your comment.
Firstly, I am not suggesting that Sky is rigging anything. If i thought that I woul not support it. In my opinion I think the sky team work hard to attract players and put a lot of work into all aspects of the site.
Maybe i didnt explain my point very well as i don't think the poor players are geting rewarded a all, in fact, when you scope them you see they are down a substantial amount.
My point is that good players will get "Donked" a lot on this site and knocked out quickly although once they get through o the final stages then business returns to normal.
May I use an analogy to help explain.
A car race consising of 50 drivers and only 5 are good, the rest know how to drive. If you start at the back you need to get through 45 inexperienced drivers and thus the likelyhood of them driving irrationally is high. The more the amount of inxperienced players the harder it becomes.
My point is this, I find that in a lot of torneys the field is made up of inexperienced players making silly moves which is the cause of the concern about 'BAD BEATS" and the RCG seemingly dealing amazing flops. So if sky wishes to reduce this variance and atract a high sandard they need to reduce the quantity of low standard.
In essence, if you make an initial 200 rais, early doors, with AA and get a call, or shove, with KK and you lose then thats poker! but if you make a 200 raise and get called by all 6 players each holding relative rubbish then thats BINGO.
My point is if we want to improve this site then we need o educae the players so thir are less really bad ones in the field.
On or 2 at a table is fine, I want their chips. 5 at my table is damm right dangerous as my AA could easily be cracked.
Hope this is a better explanation.
MM
Hey All,
Just to say, this is not about "Slating" sky or any form of conspiracy theory. This is about understanding why and looking for ways to improve the site for us all.
I think its about educating players to play ABC poker and hlp them to have a good understanding of bet sizing, whats going on, etc etc.
I would like to think that if this thread gathers pace we may come up with some good suggestions which "Sky management' may elect to initiate.
Thanks all
Because they can make a few play $'s playing that way on facebook they think that's how to play right the way up through.
When that doesn't work, how many think the problem is their own game?
My reply may be long and boring but it goes back to a live game I was at on Wednessday. So i will try and explain it as best as i can, i wasnt in the hand, and usually avoid these debates but as i knew all the guys personally i ended up getting involved.
Pre flop, 7 handed blinds are @ 100/200 average stack is 5714
Two players are just over that on 6500 and 6250 ish respectively.
UTG raises, +1 folds, 2nd in chips re-raises to 1250, Everyone folds to button who is 6500ish stack who calls. UTG shoves for around 3000, the second raiser shoves, button calls.
UTG shows Jacks.
2nd in chips shows AKs of clubs
chip leader shows K4o
Now in the end the board came down K4794 there for the K4 actually won the hand.
Then a dabte sparked off between 3rd in chips at time of the hand (guy wasnt even in the hand) and the chip leader. Nothing more was said other than, "can you explain why you made that call with K4"
Nothing wrong with asking an opinion in my mind. And well thats how we do improve so i seen some sign of one or two players in this debate who wanted to learn more.
The chip leaders reply was "Well theres not a single hand pre thats good because nothing has came out yet." This obviously caused a few laughs umougst the more serious players that where in attendance, about all 3 of us. and 1 of them was actually on the rail because of a prior AK v KK hand earlier on.
Anyways, The more we tried to explain this situation to him the more this guy got, but you see pros in hands with rags all the time sort of attitude. Again we didnt go down that line, although i cant remember a pro calling of 30BB with K4o at any time in a tourament.
Anyways, the whole attitude of this guy was that everything was rubbish till a flop comes down.
You just cant help someone learn that doesnt want to learn. I think even the guy with AK said hed take £1 a hand for 200 hands, he has AK every time v the guys K4 and he accepted, im not sure how the results of this where i left before then.
I think a lot of these plays with a wide range come from seeing highlights on TV. Calling with any two cards becomes acceptable in the latter stages of an mtt. In the latter stages the cards you hold are far less important than they are at the start of an mtt. Decisions regarding calling other players are determined by relative stack sizes as the mtt nears the endgame. At that stage you know your opponent will (or should) have extended his range of cards to raise or shove with, and therefore your calling range is extended (or should be extended) accordingly.
What a lot of inexperienced players don't recognise is the difference in the beiginning, middle and end of a tournament. They call with a wide range and hit from time to time. This can be seen almost any night in any Sky tournament. There will be huge stacks built by players who call with any two cards and romp ahead of the field. What they fail to recognise is that this style cannot be sustained throughout a tournament and they will fall just as dramatically as they rose to the top of the leader board.
There seems to be an unusually high number of players like this on Sky and I think it's the 'telly' influence.
Hya , looks like the debate is going well.
Some answers
1. Yes I can win a lot.. I hit top 15 in the MTT quarter league so have won my fair share
2. Yes I do want to educate players so they can play solid ABC poker. Really bad Donks will still play but there will be less of them and, Even if i educate someone it doesnt mean they can play to an outstanding level however it should stop somone calling with real rubbish and catching lucky.
3. Elsadog has an accurate point. Telly is about highlights and they never show the hour of pre flop folding in between. In fact what you see a lot of on the telly is FOLDING something newbies can't do!!
4 If you had 2 solid players on the telly commenting on solid play, maybe even playing and commenting people would start to learn the thought processes behind a call or a fold. And also people may think twice if the really bad basic mistakes are pointed out, in a nice way.. Lets improve the standard to a nice basic level.. Tha still leaves plenty of room for really advanced players to have fun!
Elsadog has explained it better than I. a solid player folds and plays well and lasts! a Donk may knock ou a good player but then tends to depart next hand.
Also I actually think the Bountyhunters are enciting bad play but thats my humble opinion.
why would you want them to make less mistakes
REPLY TO POD1
I am confident in my ability and I secured 1800 points in the quarterly league which jusifies this statement.
I think you are missing the point and, as i have observed previous comments of yours on similiar threads often miss the point.
let me try and explain.. we are both sitting at the table.. All of us have 2000 chips.
UTG elects to raise to 100 with AK, you have 22 so call off the 100.
I have AA and choose to isolate so re raise to 600. Now the AK will probably shove but lets say he calls.
You have a 1 in 8 shot to hit a set and you have to think that 22 is beaten.
Now surely you have to fold as you can only hope to set mine and going to left 1300 chips if you miss or do you fold??
More importantly the flop drops blanks for everyone, Nohing suited running or flushing. The AA decides to shove so the AK will move to on side.. what do you do?
this is basic stuff now, advanced is, I have loads of info on you and with that info i can decide but a donk doesnt even use the pre flop information which is the issue.
The worst thing for someone with AA early doors is to make a 300 raise and get 5 callers coz you cant work out where you are unless you hit MASSIVE
Question? would you call a 2000 all in, early doors wih 23?
If you did and beat AA then you are a lucky fool. If you have the AA you just feel you cant play against people of such low standard.
If this sort of thing is a rarity then that is fine but if its the norm, as it seems to be on sky then you start to play BINGO!
As soon as it gets to that lowly level players start to leave in droves so I am suggesting we need to raise the BOTTOM LINE Standard to get a grasp of the basics and an understanding of why you are doing what you are doing.
All the taching wont hlp them to acquire a 6th sense but a good basic standard will make the game more enjoyable for everyone.
In defence when we attended the SPT at Luton none of this was happening. Yes people lost, I lost very early on to TOMMYD AK v AQ when the flop dropped AAQ but these things happen BUT I didnt hear anyone play 7 3 off early doors and calling massive pre flop raises. This is my point and, by upping the BASE sandard surely we will attract more players not less
In response to the thread question how about the constant all in beats Aj vs A6, JJ vs 77. The site is becoming a farce quite frankly
To be honest JJ is the hardest hand to play and pre flop raise with for this reason.
But you are helping to underline my point. People play far too many hands when they shouldnt because they know no better
Dohhhhhhhh all you wish to do is constantly criticise and be negative. In fact, everytime you get involved in a debate you rarely say anything constructive. This is about improving the lowest standard of play. Imagine this site to be a football team. If you wish o attract good players to a premier football team this will be unlikely if you said the only teams you would play are in the 3rd division. By upping the "BASE" standard of play this is a good thing don't you think Dohhh?
I left sky for a number of reasons. Im an MTT player, ive never finnished in the top 150 of the league never mind top 30.
I felt the play on a different site was WORSE than on sky. The tournament numbers where greater, the prize money was bigger as a result. Now this site will remain un-named for obvious reasons.
Now im not the greatest mtt player sky has and nor will i be.
Now im happy playing happy go lucky EEHAWS because that means im more likley to get my money in ahead, the more i get my money in ahead the more in win, the more i win the more money i make, the more money i make i can get drunk like Dohhh every other night.
Now we could go on in one big loop like that.
Now your comment to football makes no sense. Would Man Utd really want to have more teams challenging them for the title? Youve got to be kidding!
Yes all the big clubs have feeder clubs which in help allows them to have a smaller club where they send their younger players or injured players to get match practice. This in turn does boost the lower levels. But it brings more Self gain than it does assist the level of the feeder club.
Now if you think Sir Alex Ferguson wants 20 teams on a level playing field with his side every year then i think you need to re-look at football.
Poker is no different, you want to play at the top and you want to play the easiest players possible.
If you want to teach someone the game then teach a friend.
I can defend 66 v JJ one to one all in pre flop but the A6 is crazy.
I have just had one now UTG raise from 20 to 100
SB call
I reraise 500 with QQ
UTG folds
SB shoves K9 for 2000
WHY?
But overall its still getting beat.
Maybe its me but I think you are coming across as intentionally stupid.
Very good players don't wish to play against a bucket of BINGO players.. Premier league fooballers wouldnt wish to play every week against div 4 players.
My point is that, in my opinion the site contains a massive amount of players who havent any idea. If we look to educate them they will star to play better. Play better means playing less totally stupid hands which equals far less outragous bad beats. This, in turn, will attract good players as they are confident they sort of know where they are and arent faced with someone shoving 23 into them and catching lucky... Now does this make sense or do you still think the site has a good standard of player