setups,action hands,just how often is often?

djblacke04

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

so what your saying is the rng is str coz its liscienced and the algorithm is bent coz it aint?
Posted by pod1

An rng, does what it says,your right it will never be truely random but is good enough for me,the second level of programming takes the pack,and distributes the cards accordingly....

that is where the Algorithm s live and apparently is for our benefit as customers...

pod1

i understand that bit, but if the same people who do the rng are the same people who write the algorythm,where does the site come into it to make it less unfair!!

djblacke04

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

i understand that bit, but if the same people who do the rng are the same people who write the algorythm,where does the site come into it to make it less unfair!!
Posted by pod1

Your right its all in the programming,i would think most sites either license or rent the program and take their commission....

unknown_username

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

i understand that bit, but if the same people who do the rng are the same people who write the algorythm,where does the site come into it to make it less unfair!!
Posted by pod1

The company that certify the RNG (to say it is generating sequences as it should) also design and supply the software used. They advertise this and also that they design and supply the software for the casino games - you know the ones that have a fixed (and changeable) win to lose ratio built into them. 

One of the things I found when I started looking at this subject was a string of complaints from an online casino operator who uses the same software. Their complaints were that some online casinos were changing the win/lose ratio in order to increase their profits. The complaint was aimed at the accreditation organisation who they alledge are issuing certificates of conformity to these sites without ever undertaking checks to ensure that they are conforming.

The name of that company is TST - I assume you know who they are?

unknown_username

I have copid below some sections of the letter -

''This email is a collective question from a number of online gaming affiliates who are beginning to question the authenticity of online casinos boasting TST accreditations, not to mention the due diligence of TST itself.For example, there is a growing, large percentage of online casinos that have the TST logo on their homepages, and yet do not link to a certificate.Whose to say these sites are actually TST certified?Additionally, there are several Top Game casinos linking to so-called documents, which in effect are nothing self-written press releases.These documents may look legit to a newbie online gambler, but this is essentially a press release anyone could create with a text editor.And then, there are sites linking to valid TST certificates for Real Time Gaming Software, which albeit is valid for RTG, yet is not necessarily for the online casino.'' ''Quite frankly, we believe this shines a negative light on TST, and until something is done about this, we will be getting the message out there across blogs and forums.Your response addressing this matter is appreciated and will be considered in regards to updates on the matter. If TST bills itself to be an “internationally recognized” testing facility, and “one of the world’s most experienced gaming test labs”, don’t you think the players – who essentially keep you in business – deserve more transparency?''I can PM the link to this to anyone who would like it. In that you will see that this operator tried to glean information from TST and met the same stonewalling that I did. And this isn't a punter - this is an Online Casino Operator! 

djblacke04

Also any site that is able to change its source code...(update)....should therefore be certified everytime it was updated.....yes?

unknown_username

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

Also any site that is able to change its source code...(update)....should therefore be certified everytime it was updated.....yes?
Posted by djblacke04

Yes, but if you check out some certificates you will see that some are 2 years old.

loonytoons

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often? : Yes, but if you check out some certificates you will see that some are 2 years old.
Posted by elsadog

Are these certifications enshrined in law, that operators must have them to operate, and if they are, who regulates the bodies issuing the certificates, and if they are not obligatory, why bother, or you could just 'set up' your own version of the 'Alderney gaming commission' using a 'totally independent subsidiary ' of your firm and print your own certificate!

djblacke04

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often? : Are these certifications enshrined in law, that operators must have them to operate, and if they are, who regulates the bodies issuing the certificates, and if they are not obligatory, why bother, or you could just 'set up' your own version of the 'Alderney gaming commission' using a 'totally independent subsidiary ' of your firm and print your own certificate!
Posted by loonytoons

yeah , only thing is you have to be in a place which has 0% business tax...

welcome to the republic of DJ land...anyone want a license,me and a couple of mates have started a commission , give us 100 grand and we will let you have a server....we will just start a company called 'tottally shot testers'.....(please no replys about the typo) and print out a bit of paper,or create a wordpad document and stick it on our site...

any complaints we will send out the standard ,'we have analysed your results,and in fact if you play 2 million games you will find it all in order,so please fork off until you have done so.'

harding10

I'm not sure if I'm being very dense here, but .............

Is the simplistic basis of the argument that the RNG shuffles the pack as well as could reasonably be expected, but the algorithm means the pack isn't dealt in the order it's been shuffled to?

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

I'm not sure if I'm being very dense here, but ............. Is the simplistic basis of the argument that the RNG shuffles the pack as well as could reasonably be expected, but the algorithm means the pack isn't dealt in the order it's been shuffled to?
Posted by harding10

The RNG does NOT, i repeat NOT shuffle the PACK

unknown_username

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

I'm not sure if I'm being very dense here, but ............. Is the simplistic basis of the argument that the RNG shuffles the pack as well as could reasonably be expected, but the algorithm means the pack isn't dealt in the order it's been shuffled to?
Posted by harding10

The pRNG produces randomised sequences of cards. The first question is how these are delivered to the table. The second question is whether all generated sequences are used.

For instance: 

The outcome or outcomes (all anticipated players may not participate in the hand) are known in advance. That means that the winning hand is known before delivery. Card sequences could be delivered in any order to the players without altering the RNG output and thereby satisfying all tests for conformity. Because all sequences are known and are able to be generated much quicker than they are used these sequences could be stored and used as required. A sample batch of sequences would satisfy the checks for randomness because they have not been changed. The only change is in the timing of their use. As far as can be determined no checks are undertaken to ensure they are used in strict rotation or indeed that all are used. 

The outputted sequences could easily be categorised and utilised as and when it is deemed necessary.

snorky

Usual night on sky.......My question why is this the norm.

snorky	Small blind		150.00	150.00	1850.00
JONNYGAVFC	Big blind		300.00	450.00	9800.00
	Your hole cards	6 6
DIDGERIDOO	Fold
dano001	Call		300.00	750.00	1235.00
willie	Fold
snorky	Call		150.00	900.00	1700.00
JONNYGAVFC	Check
Flop
		2 2 4
snorky	Bet		900.00	1800.00	800.00
JONNYGAVFC	Fold
dano001	All-in		1235.00	3035.00	0.00
snorky	Call		335.00	3370.00	465.00
snorky	Show	6 6
dano001	Show	4 Q
Turn
		4
River
		J
dano001	Win	Full House, 4s and 2s	3370.00		3370.00

snorky

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

Usual night on sky.......My question why is this the norm. snorky Small blind   150.00 150.00 1850.00 JONNYGAVFC Big blind   300.00 450.00 9800.00   Your hole cards 6 6       DIDGERIDOO Fold         dano001 Call   300.00 750.00 1235.00 willie Fold         snorky Call   150.00 900.00 1700.00 JONNYGAVFC Check         Flop     2 2 4       snorky Bet   900.00 1800.00 800.00 JONNYGAVFC Fold         dano001 All-in   1235.00 3035.00 0.00 snorky Call   335.00 3370.00 465.00 snorky Show 6 6       dano001 Show 4 Q       Turn     4       River     J       dano001 Win Full House, 4s and 2s 3370.00   3370.00
Posted by snorky

another

snorky	Small blind		600.00	600.00	1250.00
scottystar	Big blind		1200.00	1800.00	3892.50
	Your hole cards	Q 10
spartan7	Fold
4dogs	Fold
jen100	Fold
snorky	All-in		1250.00	3050.00	0.00
scottystar	Call		650.00	3700.00	3242.50
snorky	Show	Q 10
scottystar	Show	7 4
Flop
		6 10 5
Turn
		A
River
		8
scottystar	Win	Straight to the 8	3700.00

snorky

another

snorky	Small blind		300.00	300.00	3165.00
eamonn1959	Big blind		600.00	900.00	2830.00
	Your hole cards	K K
scottystar	Fold
spartan7	Fold
4dogs	Fold
snorky	Raise		900.00	1800.00	2265.00
eamonn1959	All-in		2830.00	4630.00	0.00
snorky	All-in		2265.00	6895.00	0.00
snorky	Unmatched bet		35.00	6860.00	35.00
snorky	Show	K K
eamonn1959	Show	A 6
Flop
		8 J 9
Turn
		4
River
		A
eamonn1959	Win	Pair of Aces	6860.00

unknown_username

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

Usual night on sky.......My question why is this the norm. snorky Small blind   150.00 150.00 1850.00 JONNYGAVFC Big blind   300.00 450.00 9800.00   Your hole cards 6 6       DIDGERIDOO Fold         dano001 Call   300.00 750.00 1235.00 willie Fold         snorky Call   150.00 900.00 1700.00 JONNYGAVFC Check         Flop     2 2 4       snorky Bet   900.00 1800.00 800.00 JONNYGAVFC Fold         dano001 All-in   1235.00 3035.00 0.00 snorky Call   335.00 3370.00 465.00 snorky Show 6 6       dano001 Show 4 Q       Turn     4       River     J       dano001 Win Full House, 4s and 2s 3370.00   3370.00
Posted by snorky

Because every shortstack is given a chance under the ''fairness to all' policy, when they get down to the 5-10 BB stage. Don't believe me? Just watch it happen on every table. The sad thing is that the next big hand the shortstack gets is their last hand played.

Just watch it happen - usually any 2 cards will do. All very random.

snorky

look at this lovely random hand god i could go on for hours and this is just one tourney.

Honest another 30 hands could go on here this i'm sorry does not add up to me at all.

JONNYGAVFC	Small blind		50.00	50.00	2972.50
whistler16	Big blind		100.00	150.00	2052.50
	Your hole cards	6 7
dano001	Fold
shadow6929	Fold
willie	Fold
snorky	Fold
JONNYGAVFC	Call		50.00	200.00	2922.50
whistler16	Raise		100.00	300.00	1952.50
JONNYGAVFC	Call		100.00	400.00	2822.50
Flop
		2 7 8
JONNYGAVFC	Check
whistler16	Bet		100.00	500.00	1852.50
JONNYGAVFC	Call		100.00	600.00	2722.50
Turn
		6
JONNYGAVFC	Bet		600.00	1200.00	2122.50
whistler16	Call		600.00	1800.00	1252.50
River
		9
JONNYGAVFC	Check
whistler16	Bet		900.00	2700.00	352.50
JONNYGAVFC	Raise		1800.00	4500.00	322.50
whistler16	All-in		352.50	4852.50	0.00
JONNYGAVFC	Unmatched bet		547.50	4305.00	870.00
JONNYGAVFC	Show	8 5
whistler16	Show	K A
JONNYGAVFC	Win	Straight Flush to the 9	4305.00

just Go's on and on and on.If this is what random is how come i have a different definition to what random is.

the next three hands i could put up are typically straight beating straight always on the river.

I give up.So hard to maintain a sense of humour.Time for another break  

IRISHROVER

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often? : Because every shortstack is given a chance under the ''fairness to all' policy, when they get down to the 5-10 BB stage. Don't believe me? Just watch it happen on every table. The sad thing is that the next big hand the shortstack gets is their last hand played. Just watch it happen - usually any 2 cards will do. All very random.
Posted by elsadog

for example /> />>>

jojo74	Small blind		100.00	100.00	6860.00
IRISHROVER	Big blind		200.00	300.00	1942.50
	Your hole cards	A 8
BOBBYDAZLA	Raise		400.00	700.00	6135.00
HOTFLUSH66	Fold
heapey0015	Call		400.00	1100.00	12932.50
jojo74	Fold
IRISHROVER	Call		200.00	1300.00	1742.50
Flop
		Q J Q
IRISHROVER	Check
BOBBYDAZLA	Check
heapey0015	Check
Turn
		10
IRISHROVER	Bet		200.00	1500.00	1542.50
BOBBYDAZLA	Raise		800.00	2300.00	5335.00
heapey0015	Fold
IRISHROVER	Call		600.00	2900.00	942.50
River
		K
IRISHROVER	All-in		942.50	3842.50	0.00
BOBBYDAZLA	Call		942.50	4785.00	4392.50
IRISHROVER	Show	A 8
BOBBYDAZLA	Show	J J
BOBBYDAZLA	Win	Full House, Jacks and Queens	4785.00

DOHHHHHHH

Do you guys really genuinely believe that posting super standard hands proves your point???

Alot of which r played poorly btw, v surprised at your hand Irish man.

You got 10xbb, and flop a massive draw, get 5xbbs in when you have alot of pot equity, and the other 5xbb when u have nothing and no fold equity.

Jam pre man! Jam the flop! Jam the turn!

Snorky u cant.....

1) limp in with 55 from a 6xbb stack.

2) let yourself blind down to 1.5xbb in the small blind. Why didnt u shove any of the previous 20 hands?

3) U played the kings fine but again you've blinded down to 5xbb's

You really need to get your chips in with some fold equity.

You can't get outdrawn if you make your opponents fold.

You've almost asked for most of those out-draws, you've given your opponents no choice but to make the calls.

And they have decent equity everytime. 

Which means inevitably, you're gonna lose some!

U'll prob just laugh this off and go back to blaming external things but you're much better off looking at the things u can control.

Run better though.

djblacke04

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

Do you guys really genuinely believe that posting super standard hands proves your point??? Alot of which r played poorly btw, v surprised at your hand Irish man. You got 10xbb, and flop a massive draw, get 5xbbs in when you have alot of pot equity, and the other 5xbb when u have nothing and no fold equity. Jam pre man! Jam the flop! Jam the turn! Snorky u cant..... 1) limp in with 55 from a 6xbb stack. 2) let yourself blind down to 1.5xbb in the small blind. Why didnt u shove any of the previous 20 hands? 3) U played the kings fine but again you've blinded down to 5xbb's You really need to get your chips in with some fold equity. You can't get outdrawn if you make your opponents fold. You've almost asked for most of those out-draws, you've given your opponents no choice but to make the calls. And they have decent equity everytime.  Which means inevitably, you're gonna lose some! U'll prob just laugh this off and go back to blaming external things but you're much better off looking at the things u can control. Run better though.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

mathamtically these super standard hands as you so call it, are rare , but online they are every other hand...

we dont care about how we played them anymore, we just want people to understand the setup...

it is ridiculous,on and on...never ending.......just for the purpose of equity distribution....

DOHHHHHHH

I personally think the best hand holds far too often.

The regs recently have had massive stacks, the fish aren't getting a look in.

I haven't seen a fish with a stack above 200xbb for the last month. It's very unlikely that the best hand should hold as much as it has been recently.

As for not caring how bad u play, u shud. It will help you to stop losing.

edit - not "you" personally, "you" as a group of area 51ers.

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

I personally think the best hand holds far too often. The regs recently have had massive stacks, the fish aren't getting a look in. I haven't seen a fish with a stack above 200xbb for the last month. It's very unlikely that the best hand should hold as much as it has been recently. As for not caring how bad u play, u shud. It will help you to stop losing. edit - not "you" personally, "you" as a group of area 51ers.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Please feel free to continue playing the 'blind man' my good friend.

Well until that is you do indeed start to 'see'

djblacke04

'he has no clothes on' said the little boy....

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often? : Please feel free to continue playing the 'blind man' my good friend. Well until that is you do indeed start to 'see'
Posted by debdobs_67

All the best players on the site r blind.

All the professional players here r blind.

There isn't one reg above 50nl who can see. 

Of the 40 players on the mtt/sng leaderboards, only 1 player can see. The other 39 are blind.

Julian Thew is blind. 

Lolufold is blind.

LjamesL is blind.

DOHHHHHHH is blind.

Blind people are clearly the best at poker

Most of the players who have goldfish bowls on skope have their eyesight though. Which is abit of a kick in the nackers really as they have to sit and look at their abysmal stats and read how much they've lost every morning!

Pwnd!

pod1

debdob,dj, snorky and even elsa, the question i have for you is this "whats your end game?" if you write this stuff to enlighten people as to your beliefs, then you done that. if it is to try and discredit certain organisations then you done that to. if its to justify bad play,then well done ,got that covered to. but back to the original question "whats your end game? you gotta know where your taking this or theres no point starting it. you could go one step further and try and take down a site(if you want ajws number i will gladly give it to you and you can go take them on together). venting in area51 is great if that is what you want to do, and blaming things outside our control is human nature,we can all run the country better than cameron or the england football team better than capello when we down the pub with our mates. but where do you go from here, strikes outside sky shouting "we were robbed" newspaper adverts telling your stories of aa being cracked by 10 j. or you could write another 35 threads on here talking about the same old same old. if you think its wrong dont play, if  like me you think "maybe it is maybe it aint" but im enjoying playing for the sake of playing, then carry on.   phil

djblacke04

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

debdob,dj, snorky and even elsa, the question i have for you is this "whats your end game?" if you write this stuff to enlighten people as to your beliefs, then you done that. if it is to try and discredit certain organisations then you done that to. if its to justify bad play,then well done ,got that covered to. but back to the original question "whats your end game? you gotta know where your taking this or theres no point starting it. you could go one step further and try and take down a site(if you want ajws number i will gladly give it to you and you can go take them on together). venting in area51 is great if that is what you want to do, and blaming things outside our control is human nature,we can all run the country better than cameron or the england football team better than capello when we down the pub with our mates. but where do you go from here, strikes outside sky shouting "we were robbed" newspaper adverts telling your stories of aa being cracked by 10 j. or you could write another 35 threads on here talking about the same old same old. if you think its wrong dont play, if  like me you think "maybe it is maybe it aint" but im enjoying playing for the sake of playing, then carry on.   phil
Posted by pod1

Why , because it is wrong.....i dont spout nonsense,but through years of research have found out the answers to all the questions.....

If you think that the internet was designed to fleece innocent victims out of their money ,then fine....

but dont worry,i will not hold it against you,when it all comes out..:)

unknown_username

I have no end game. I simply give an alternate view to those who say it can't be rigged. Each time they repeat the same misinformed views that it isn't worth the site doing it, that it can't be done, that the site has a certificate and is regulated, I give a counter argument.

I have never been one to accept what I am told without some independent thought, particularly when those telling me have everything to gain by me believing it. I make no apologies for that.

I suppose the end game could be when DOHHHHHHH surrenders )

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

debdob,dj, snorky and even elsa, the question i have for you is this "whats your end game?" if you write this stuff to enlighten people as to your beliefs, then you done that. if it is to try and discredit certain organisations then you done that to. if its to justify bad play,then well done ,got that covered to. but back to the original question "whats your end game? you gotta know where your taking this or theres no point starting it. you could go one step further and try and take down a site(if you want ajws number i will gladly give it to you and you can go take them on together). venting in area51 is great if that is what you want to do, and blaming things outside our control is human nature,we can all run the country better than cameron or the england football team better than capello when we down the pub with our mates. but where do you go from here, strikes outside sky shouting "we were robbed" newspaper adverts telling your stories of aa being cracked by 10 j. or you could write another 35 threads on here talking about the same old same old. if you think its wrong dont play, if  like me you think "MAYBE IT IS,MAYBE IT AINT but im enjoying playing for the sake of playing, then carry on.   phil
Posted by pod1

GD point,maybe,just maybe this IS why i still play here? Still open to a bit of mischief though

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often?:

In Response to Re: setups,action hands,just how often is often? : All the best players on the site r blind. All the professional players here r blind. There isn't one reg above 50nl who can see.  Of the 40 players on the mtt/sng leaderboards, only 1 player can see. The other 39 are blind. Julian Thew is blind.  Lolufold is blind. LjamesL is blind. DOHHHHHHH is blind. Blind people are clearly the best at poker Most of the players who have goldfish bowls on skope have their eyesight though. Which is abit of a kick in the nackers really as they have to sit and look at their abysmal stats and read how much they've lost every morning! Pwnd!
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Dohhh i WILL willingly take you on any day of the week mate

pod1

i know what your saying elsa, jj would be be one ell of a scalp(more chance him going to an spt mind) and i have never been a conformist never have never will, but area 51 was never set up by people who said it WASNT FIXED. as for trolling round the internet getting information about this subject dj, you could spend years doing this with aliens, ghosts and who killed jfk, and what i have found, the more you see the more you think you understand. there are 1000s of people who swear blind they have seen a ghost ,good people,honest people and yet with all the media coverage on this subject , most people dont believe in ghosts!!  phil