ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR

barnsie

thanks for the guide john very good

have just started playign dyms (see thread just started) and have posted a few what i think are probably standard hh's but would appreciate input from a player as good as yourself

many thanks

bearlyther

Your graph looks very impressive will try and stay away from your tables but not always possible on DYM's!  Hope everything continues to go well for you.  

Dazler

hi JC what would you do in this spot, the villian shouldnt be shoving here imo at this early stage. But would you always call here or fold and wait for a better spot? i had 500 or so left over if i lost and it was a flip when she turned them. But i dont like having flips this early on in a dym game.

Thanks Dazler

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
weemallet	Small blind		50.00	50.00	3812.50
Lewisp	Big blind		100.00	150.00	1607.50
	Your hole cards	A K
Dazler	Raise		300.00	450.00	1915.00
craftycarp	Fold
Woogie8688	Fold
weemallet	Fold
Lewisp	All-in		1607.50	2057.50	0.00
Dazler	Call		1407.50	3465.00	507.50
Lewisp	Show	5 5
Dazler	Show	A K
Flop
		7 6 Q
Turn
		3
River
		3
Lewisp	Win	Two Pairs, 5s and 3s	3465.00		3465.00

Jacquelyn

Good guide JC, in reference to the super tight strategy I 100% agree - this article describes it in depth and is a great read: http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/double-nothing-icm-calculations-497569/

Also there are some good articles on the 2+2 forum, and www.doubleornothingpoker.co.uk.

Gl at the tables everyone x

Sky_Poker

We've moved this thread here so that people can find it more easily.

We know lots of people find it useful.

pinkmango

Firstly, I should say that this thread is one of the best reads on the site. JohnConnor, I played one or two tables against you but at the time I didn't cotton on that it was the same person whose thread I enjoyed so much and who had been so helpful to others otherwise I would have thanked you on the table. Please accept my apologies for that and my gratitude now for your generous help towards other DYM players here.

Anyway, on to why I posted: shockingly bad DYM play. £5.50 DYM. Blinds at 400/800, bubble is short stack. 

Short stack survived more all-in situations than I've ever seen up until now, partly because one of the other two players at the table didn't get the concept of co-operative play on the bubble and refused to commit a single chip to helping to knock out the short stack even when he had ~5,000 chips at the 300/600 blinds stage and the short stack had less than 300 chips.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
xxx	Small blind		400.00	400.00	3950.00
centurian	Big blind		480.00	880.00	0.00
	Your hole cards	8 10
pinkmango	Call		800.00	1680.00	3110.00
yyy	Call		800.00	2480.00	2460.00
xxx	Call		400.00	2880.00	3550.00
Flop
		3 5 7
xxx	Check
pinkmango	Check
yyy	Check
Turn
		8
xxx	Check
pinkmango	Check
yyy	Check
River
		4
xxx	Check
pinkmango	Check
yyy	All-in		2460.00	5340.00	0.00
xxx	Call		2460.00	7800.00	1090.00
pinkmango	Fold
xxx	Show	A 6
centurian	Show	4 J
yyy	Show	5 6
xxx	Win	Straight to the 8	3900.00		4990.00
yyy	Win	Straight to the 8	3900.00		3900.00

I don't know which of the two players played this hand worse but this was the cherry on the cake after 15 to 20 minutes of similarly bad bubble play. I could go into more detail but I'm sure you don't need me to do that to imagine what else went on.

My question is this: in this situation my gut instinct after those raises was to fold. Was this the right move? And in what situation other than the stone cold nuts would you call a raise from one let alone two people in that situation?

FCHD

To be honest, I think your play is the worst. Why are you getting involved with 8-10 offsuit?

pinkmango

In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:

To be honest, I think your play is the worst. Why are you getting involved with 8-10 offsuit?
Posted by FCHD

Fair question.

 

99 times out of 100 I would not be getting involved but it took a mammoth effort from me to get xxx and yyy to engage in any kind of cooperative bubble play. At one stage xxx had 6,000 or so chips and folded in the button when the blinds were at 150/300 and the big blind had about 350 chips to his name.

 

yyy did similar, too, in some spots.

 

It got to the point where I questioned why they were folding for tiny fractions of their stacks when they would be probably be not much worse than coinflips most of the time. That lead to a conversation about bubble play and an eventual effort from them (sometimes) to play smarter.

 

I called for one reason and one reason only: to induce calls from xxx and yyy. I knew that they'd quite happily let the small stack chip up uncontested yet again - I'd seen it more than once that table up until that point - but that they'd get involved if they saw a flat call from me.

 

Trust me, there were some very weird table dynamics going on before this hand that beggared belief.

 

With a normal table dynamic then, of course, T8os is a hand I'm mucking 99 percent of the time in this spot.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:

My "starter" question for John. Raise sizes. The current fashion is for much smaller raise sizes, but I happen to agree with you, different size Raises are needed for different situations, skillsets, buy-in levels, & stages of the DYM.  The hard-cases & snarlers, maybe some of the more erudite players, too,  are going to slate you for your raise sizes, because the current fashion is for smaller Raises. How would you counter that argument?
Posted by Tikay10

prompink30

In Response to ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:

I have just Posted a Blog by John Connor, the thread title says it all. This chap does very welll indeed at DYM's (those who know how to check these things will know that) & he's shared his thoughts with us, which is very kind of him. It's quite a long piece, but it's as good as I've seen, & if you cannot improve at least ONE aspect of your DYM play from reading it, well you are not reading it properly. Johgn is happy to take questions, feedback, & constructive criticism, but most of all, he's a winning DYM player, & wants to share his knowledge with the rest of us. So, Post any questions you have for him on this thread, please. I've asked that the "Comment" section of the Blog be restricted to "thanks John" type comments, NOT questions about it. By keeping all the questions & answers in one place - on this Thread - we will all yield greater benefit. On behalf of Sky Poker, & our players, or at least, those who want to improve their game, our sincere thanks, it's a monumental effort. The Blog is HERE
Posted by Tikay10

SKY POKER IS A JOKE JUST FOUND OUT THAT THEY PICK PLAYERS THEY LIKE AN RIGG THE CARDS SO THEY WIN

Slipwater

In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:

In Response to ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR : SKY POKER IS A JOKE JUST FOUND OUT THAT THEY PICK PLAYERS THEY LIKE AN RIGG THE CARDS SO THEY WIN
Posted by promyass30

Just found out?

You're a bit late to the party, mate.

unknown_username

Still a great Thread.

jonpaulf29

Yes I've played with John before and he folds every single hand! Unless aces or kings obviously, just waits for people to bust then players with 4 left and relies on just donk luck, go play at a table with him and see for yourselves, can't stand players like him

splashies

In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:

Yes I've played with John before and he folds every single hand! Unless aces or kings obviously, just waits for people to bust then players with 4 left and relies on just donk luck, go play at a table with him and see for yourselves, can't stand players like him
Posted by jonpaulf29

+1

hate having winning players at my table.

SORT IT OUT SKY

HENDRIK62

In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:

In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR : +1 hate having winning players at my table. SORT IT OUT SKY
Posted by splashies

lol

justmartin

Hi after having a good read through the blog and only having £2.11 in the bank roll after a bad time in cash games (not my cup of tea at all) I have concentrated on my DYM SNG even though these are very low stakes I don't think its been a bad run at all
2015-01-14 14:29:425206239398TournamentDouble Your MoneyNo Limit£1.00£0.60 Hand Info2015-01-14 14:28:385206236121TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 14:25:135206225420TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 14:21:565206215728TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 14:13:425206190238TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.00£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 14:02:565206156645Tournament£20 Gtd Turbo FRNo Limit£0.00£0.00 Hand Info2015-01-14 13:23:445206038073TournamentDouble Your MoneyNo Limit£1.00£0.60 Hand Info2015-01-14 13:23:295206037334TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 13:09:335205996088TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 13:04:205205981355TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.00£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 13:03:275205978960TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 12:54:385205954104TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.00£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 12:37:435205904861TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.00£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 12:07:405205823867TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30 Hand Info2015-01-14 11:50:515205780481TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30I would say thats a pretty high win rate and even though im only at micro level and play for fun with low stakes it has doubled my  bank roll in 3 hours, if only that was in £11.00 buy ins

justmartin

2015-01-14 14:29:425206239398TournamentDouble Your MoneyNo Limit£1.00£0.60  2015-01-14 14:28:385206236121TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30  2015-01-14 14:25:135206225420TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30  2015-01-14 14:21:565206215728TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30  2015-01-14 14:13:425206190238TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.00£0.30  2015-01-14 14:02:565206156645Tournament£20 Gtd Turbo FRNo Limit£0.00£0.00  2015-01-14 13:23:445206038073TournamentDouble Your MoneyNo Limit£1.00£0.60  2015-01-14 13:23:295206037334TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30  2015-01-14 13:09:335205996088TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30  2015-01-14 13:04:205205981355TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.00£0.30  2015-01-14 13:03:275205978960TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30  2015-01-14 12:54:385205954104TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.00£0.30  2015-01-14 12:37:435205904861TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.00£0.30  2015-01-14 12:07:405205823867TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30  2015-01-14 11:50:515205780481TournamentTurbo DYMNo Limit£0.50£0.30

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: ABC of DYM's, by JOHNCONNOR:

0 I don't know which of the two players played this hand worse but this was the cherry on the cake after 15 to 20 minutes of similarly bad bubble play. I could go into more detail but I'm sure you don't need me to do that to imagine what else went on. My question is this: in this situation my gut instinct after those raises was to fold. Was this the right move? And in what situation other than the stone cold nuts would you call a raise from one let alone two people in that situation?
Posted by pinkmango

I'm confused about the bad play? yyy should not have bet the river but unless xxx or you had 69 AND short stack villain also had 69 then he's fine. xxx call is standard unless he knows for certain yyy understands co-operation. Imagine if xxx folds and yyy turns out to be bluffing and the SS wins the hand - then the DYM is far from over anymore. And again; unless both yyy and short stack show up with 69 then he's cashing. In his worst case scenario at least he still has 1000 chips and isn't quite out!

F_Ivanovic

I've been playing turbo DYM's over the past week as part of the current Punta Cana promotion and read this guide again just to get me in the right DYM frame of mind! I've been playing at the £5 level and some of the standard is terrible. However, it doesn't always make it easy because the player pool for the turbo DYM's is massive and I seem to always be encountering new players. I try and make notes when I can but it's not easy whilst playing 4 DYM's and 2 hypers on the side!

Because of the shallower stacks in these games I'd argue you have to play even tighter early on because there is zero room for any speculating as the implied odds are almost never there. And playing AJ-AK OOP can be a nightmare in these early on too without any opponent reads. I've had many hands earlier on where I would raise AQo in HJ for instance; flop comes T52 and I'm often lost. If I cb and get called, do I go for a 2nd barrel on "good" turn cards? I'm very hesitant with any sort of bluffs vs unknowns in these games particularly with 6 left (as JC rightly says going out early is often a cardinal sin - can be less so in turbo DYM's given the SS nature but it still shouldn't happen often!) I've 2 barrel bluffed very infrequently in these games and only ever 3 barrel bluffed once (thankfully successful!) - and I must have played at least 1500 of these games in the past week. I'm even super tight with BTN stealing with still 6 left - pretty much only stealing with high (89 and above) suited conncector cards. Hands like A8o are often instant muck's.

Anyway, I think turbo DYM's are overall quite a bit different from regular DYM's. Particularly the principle of shoving any 2 cards once you get to a certain stack depth. If you are shortest stack with 6 left you should definitely be willing to shove super wide but with blinds going up so quick and stack sizes being so similar you'll find you have fold equity with very little BB at all. 

It's also perfectly fine in these games to sometimes "Blind out" - particularly with how high the blinds can get relative to stack sizes. Often you will get walks in the BB when this happens because most players will know you are priced in to call with any 2.