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More i think about it the less i think 99 is in his range tbh. Less because i believe at NL4 as many regs including myself believe its pointless to raise small pairs then miss set and have to shut down. Most of us would just limp call. Im not sure if Lambert is similar, i probably havent played him enough to know for sure. on the whole i know hes better than most of the players at NL4 so i dont see value in playing him.
If he flats he probably get another street of value. imo anyways.
the cbet was because i knew he had other hands in his range on the flop that dont have sets.
Tbh i wouldnt have cbetted 33 and 44 id probably not be comfortable about getting it in.
Again i play 33/44 completely diff as id have checked.
If he only calls flop with a set betting is terrible
Why would you not cbet 44, if you cbet JJ?
my point is GT i would have checked 44 so yes i would have lead.
A4s v a range i have oop. I dont see alot of regs calling off A4s for 8bb
Posted by grantorino
Posted by stien
Nothing worse calls, our hand is too strong to bluff with
Posted by grantorino
but hands such as KJ/A9/AT might also be in his range and do we wnat to give him a free card?
Posted by The_Don90
Thought he didnt limp those?
If he does they have ~7% to beat you on turn. I would bet for value here all day, but if you think only sets call and hands with 7% equity that can improve to worse top pair hands will fold I think checking is much better than betting, unless you think he never ever puts in more money unless he turns a bigger pair than a J
EDIT: Even if you give 2 free cards its still going to be only something like 12-14% to outdraw you
Posted by grantorino
Don says range pre is 22-99, and thinks villain only calls flop with sets. Why bet?
Anyway hands with decent equity v JJ never fold so we just bet for value. And yes betting for value would be pretty much the only reason to bet JJ on that board. Better never folds
Don - i think you generally assign too tight ranges to players. Especially in a hand like this where the player limped. I think his range has to be wide enough to at least call turn, although betting is the better option.
GT - Don has my range pretty much spot on. At 4NL the only hands I'm gonna raise with (if I'm first into the pot) are 22+, AT+, and KQ. Once a solid player like Don has raised before me, I'm 3 betting with JJ+ and AK, flatting all lower pairs and *MAYBE AQ* but probably not against Don, everything else I'm folding. So none of the hands like 78s,K9 etc are in my range. Don had it spot on and it was that fact that allowed me to bluff him off the overpair, cos I knew he'd put me on a small PP and most of them by the turn are either a set or an open ended straight draw at worst.
I know how most of the solid players at this level play, especially Don thanks to clinic posts lol, and as Don said earlier, when he makes this raise pre I know for a fact he only has TT+ or AK. I also know that he will think I'm mostly flatting with low/medium PPs to set-mine. So when I get a flop that doesn't help a single hand in his range and looks like it's all over my range, I play it like a set because I know I can make him fold an overpair on this board (as I did).
Offshoot - I know what you're saying about limping the button and clearly you're a much better player than me, but as I said above, I know for a fact that Don has one of the above mentioned hands, so by raising I'm just gonna create a massive pot when I'm flipping or a big underdog. Against most opponents I'm doing this because 95% of players at this level stack off so easily that I know I can get best part if not all of their stack even when I limp as long as they hit even a tiny bit of the flop, and if I miss (as I very often will), I've saved about 4-5BBs. I do know what ya mean though, I only do it against really bad players and in this case I did it because of what I know of Don's play.
Can you just explain this bit Lamby, how can you know he has one of these hands when you have to act first? Fwiw 77 has to an auto raise on the button even for me.
Lambert: ooh I have a pretty hand but an overcard might come and I am afraid to play poker even ip, lets limp
Don: Ihave a really pretty hand , raise it the fcuk up
Lambert: I has a pair I call
Don: mmm, Lambert only has 22-99 and he folds anything that hasnt made a set so I will turn my overpair into a bluff and bet
Lambert: Pretty good flop for me, I still has a pair, I calls
Don : uhoh Lambert called a flop which misses my range completely, the bastid flopped a set. And if he didnt he turned one, I checks
Lambert: oooh,Don has AQ lets bet to make him fold it
Don: I ruuuun so baaaaaaaaaaad, he deffo has a set, he never vbets worse or bluffs when I play my hand like air, lets fold
You obv dont open 22+ when first in the pot
Are you seriously saying you floated flop because you knew Don c/f his overpairs on the turn?
How do you know Don has TT+, AK when he hasnt even acted yet? That range sounds too tight anyway
Raising a few bb wont create a massive pot as a big underdog
Sounds to me like you are playng your hand after results are seen
excellent work GT
theres no way lambert was betting 50p on the turn to get the don to fold an overpair imo
I meant to say that when he 3bet to that amount this was the range I could put him on. With the board that came out, and bearing in mind the bet he made pre, he was only ever gonna have an overpair or 2 big overcards. He's gonna c-bet against me in this situation practically 100% of the time so I call knowing that he's probably gonna put me on a set cos the way I play at this level doesn't involve bluffing/floatiing so when I call, he knows I defintely have something.
No offence to the knowledgable people on here but frankly, you're wrong in saying that I didn't intend to play it as a set, that was exactly my plan cos I reckon I have a good handle on how Don's mind works. He's quite negative and is VERY quick to jump to the conclusion that his over pair (for example) is beaten and that the villian always has the nuts.
Offshoot - It makes it easy to play against when I'm playing people who keep track of how I've been palying my hands but that doesn't apply to 95% of the opponents at this level. The only people who are gonna pick up on this are the people I don't generally sit on a table with/play hands against.
I'm not sure you are being completely honest with yourself on what your plan for hand was, but only you know that so will take your word for it.
What exactly is your plan for future streets at each stage? When you call pre, and when you call flop? If he calls turn?
I dont think I like the line anyway, but if you answer those questions will tell you why (also might like it better with clear answers to those)
On the whole exploiting thing, Don should be able to exploit you, even if most 4nl players wont. Kudos to you for at least thinking about a way of exploiting him.
q1. Why no raise on flop if you bluffing
q2. do you raise turn if don leads
q3. why do you always advocate "never limping" then you limp button
The funny thing about this is I advocate limping in certain situations in another thread, and you jump in saying I am talking nonsense !! Kinda upsets me )
tbh more i think about this i probaly did play it badly.
When I call the flop, obviosuly I know on the turn I can either hit my set, hit my gutshot OR hit another blank (for his range) and continue the story of me having a set. In relation to this and in answer to Rancid, the reason I didn't re-raise the flop is because if I'd have genuinely flopped a set, I wouldn't have re-raised because as I said what Don's range is, I think the best way to get value from him is to flat and let him to lead out again on the turn.
If he calls the turn then I'm pretty certain he's gonna check the river to me because there is just no hand he has here to bet for value (short of rivering a set) and when he does, I'll be shoving. If it goes this far, then I will have played the entire hand exactly as I would if I'd flopped a set.
I know what ya mean about me becoming exploitable by Don and other regs but that's why I don't play my complete normal 4NL against the regs. There's no way I'd have been making plays like this against most of the players at this level, like the people who would NEVER fold an overpair or TPGK so granted against most people this doesnt work, but I know Don has a fold button.
As I said earlier, I think because Don is a very good tournament player he often makes what would be 'good lay downs' and is correct that he's beat in that particular case (although not necessarily good long term against their whole range), but surely in cash that is why putting people on range's is all the more relevant. I.e. if he knows that there are 10 possible hands in my range, 6 of which he beats and 4 of which he doesnt he should surely carry on but I think sometimes the Don can have that attitude of 'making good lay downs and finding better spots' which is good when you have one tourney life but not always the best way in a cash game (if you can deal with some swings).
Hope that answers everything GT... be glad to hear your thoughts.
even vs lambert who is v good for this level we should never ever be folding an over pair to the board here, unless Lambert actually says, i have a set, in the chat box.