why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.

The_Don90 · April 2012

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
derek1972	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.31
The_Don90	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.96
	Your hole cards	8 4
JUCY	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£3.61
montymole	Fold
BENJANI256	Fold
derek1972	Call		£0.02	£0.12	£1.29
The_Don90	Check
Flop
		3 8 J
derek1972	Check
The_Don90	Bet		£0.12	£0.24	£3.84
JUCY	Call		£0.12	£0.36	£3.49
derek1972	Call		£0.12	£0.48	£1.17
Turn
		2
derek1972	Check
The_Don90	Bet		£0.48	£0.96	£3.36
JUCY	Raise		£0.96	£1.92	£2.53
derek1972	Call		£0.96	£2.88	£0.21
The_Don90	All-in		£3.36	£6.24	£0.00
JUCY	All-in		£2.53	£8.77	£0.00
derek1972	All-in		£0.21	£8.98	£0.00
The_Don90	Unmatched bet		£0.35	£8.63	£0.35
derek1972	Show	3 2
The_Don90	Show	8 4
JUCY	Show	2 2
River
		6
JUCY	Win	Three 2s	£7.98		£7.98

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Shieldsy83	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.81
The_Don90	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.96
oynutter	Sit out
	Your hole cards	6 7
millsumm01	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£7.10
HANKBO48	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£3.13
delano1975	Call		£0.04	£0.18	£2.30
Shieldsy83	Call		£0.02	£0.20	£3.79
The_Don90	Check
Flop
		7 K 6
Shieldsy83	Check
The_Don90	Bet		£0.20	£0.40	£3.76
millsumm01	Fold
HANKBO48	Call		£0.20	£0.60	£2.93
delano1975	Call		£0.20	£0.80	£2.10
Shieldsy83	Fold
Turn
		5
The_Don90	Bet		£0.60	£1.40	£3.16
HANKBO48	All-in		£2.93	£4.33	£0.00
delano1975	All-in		£2.10	£6.43	£0.00
The_Don90	Fold
HANKBO48	Unmatched bet		£0.83	£5.60	£0.83
HANKBO48	Show	4 8
delano1975	Show	K J
River
		K
HANKBO48	Win	Straight to the 8	£5.18		£6.01

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
The_Don90	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.88
linzi24	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£5.01
	Your hole cards	Q Q
AcidMan27	Fold
slackalice	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£4.16
montymole	Fold
delano1975	Fold
The_Don90	Raise		£0.24	£0.34	£3.64
linzi24	Call		£0.22	£0.56	£4.79
slackalice	Fold
Flop
		5 K 4
The_Don90	Bet		£0.42	£0.98	£3.22
linzi24	All-in		£4.79	£5.77	£0.00
The_Don90	All-in		£3.22	£8.99	£0.00
linzi24	Unmatched bet		£1.15	£7.84	£1.15
The_Don90	Show	Q Q
linzi24	Show	5 8
Turn
		5
River
		4
linzi24	Win	Full House, 5s and 4s	£7.25		£8.40

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
The_Don90	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£5.30
millsumm01	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£6.13
	Your hole cards	J J
oynutter	Fold
HANKBO48	Fold
delano1975	Raise		£0.12	£0.18	£4.85
spatulaq	Fold
The_Don90	Raise		£0.42	£0.60	£4.88
millsumm01	Fold
delano1975	Raise		£1.60	£2.20	£3.25
The_Don90	All-in		£4.88	£7.08	£0.00
delano1975	All-in		£3.25	£10.33	£0.00
The_Don90	Unmatched bet		£0.35	£9.98	£0.35
The_Don90	Show	J J
delano1975	Show	K K
Flop
		6 4 2
Turn
		4
River
		7
delano1975	Win	Two Pairs, Kings and 4s	£9.23		£9.23

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
The_Don90	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.00
huhhh	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£0.75
	Your hole cards	9 Q
Towelie706	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£2.42
slackalice	Fold
montymole	Raise		£0.12	£0.22	£3.73
The_Don90	Call		£0.10	£0.32	£3.90
huhhh	Fold
Towelie706	Call		£0.08	£0.40	£2.34
Flop
		9 10 2
The_Don90	Bet		£0.30	£0.70	£3.60
Towelie706	Fold
montymole	Raise		£1.20	£1.90	£2.53
The_Don90	All-in		£3.60	£5.50	£0.00
montymole	All-in		£2.53	£8.03	£0.00
The_Don90	Unmatched bet		£0.17	£7.86	£0.17
The_Don90	Show	9 Q
montymole	Show	A A
Turn
		8
River
		2
montymole	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and 2s	£7.27		£7.27

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
delano1975	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.73
The_Don90	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.88
	Your hole cards	J 10
huhhh	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£1.81
Towelie706	Fold
slackalice	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£5.95
montymole	Fold
delano1975	Fold
The_Don90	Check
Flop
		K 9 Q
The_Don90	Bet		£0.24	£0.38	£3.64
huhhh	Fold
slackalice	Call		£0.24	£0.62	£5.71
Turn
		7
The_Don90	Bet		£0.47	£1.09	£3.17
slackalice	Call		£0.47	£1.56	£5.24
River
		K
The_Don90	Bet		£1.17	£2.73	£2.00
slackalice	Raise		£4.10	£6.83	£1.14
The_Don90	All-in		£2.00	£8.83	£0.00
slackalice	Unmatched bet		£0.93	£7.90	£2.07
The_Don90	Show	J 10
slackalice	Show	Q K
slackalice	Win	Full House, Kings and Queens	£7.30		£9.37

wayne1958 · April 2012

well im no pro but some of your starting hands could be better-nl4 not the best poker iv heard..

The_Don90 · April 2012

In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:

well im no pro but some of your starting hands could be better-nl4 not the best poker iv heard..
Posted by wayne1958

3 of those hands are checks from the BB. Flopping massive. The Q9 hand admittedly not happy about not sure i got to the flop. maybe slight tight by that stage

EvilPingu · April 2012

My $0.02:

Hand 1 (84s) - Don't mind flop bet to build pot when we hit the flush and very rarely take down the pot as well. On the turn, we know we're behind when opponent min raises, so just call, fold if no heart on river. We don't have any fold equity here. Behind 99% of the time here, too, so I'm calling to hit a heart on the river and check/folding if I miss.

Hand 2 (67o) - 5 players in the pot, beautiful spot to overbet the pot. Nothing wrong with pot bet, but betting more than pot will still get calls. I think you have to get the money in on the turn tbh, can see we're behind to 84 this time but I think getting the money in will show a profit long term here.

Hand 3 (QQ) - Pre-flop is fine, flop is okay if you think villain will stack off with worse. Wp, ul.

Hand 4 (JJ) - Can fold to the 4-bet, depends on the player. If he's a reg, easy fold, if he's a random then it depends on what you've seen the player do previously, readless I probably fold to the 4-bet, simply because the bet sizing looks like the player has some understanding of how to play Texas Hold'em, and in that case, he's not getting his money in with worse than JJ - Best we can hope for is a flip vs. AK

Hand 5 (Q9s) - Fold pre. As played, we have 14 outs on the flop (2 9's, 3 Q's, 9 spades) so we're probably a favourite in the hand, therefore getting the money in is standard.

Hand 6 (JTo) - Standard. Loving the overbet on the flop.

DOHHHHHHH · April 2012

Hand 1 - 84hh - Why are you playing the turn like you've got top set? Ok flop we have lots of equity so the bet is good multi way to build a pot, once you hit the turn, you're semi-bluffing multi way at nl4.

Hand 3 - QQ - b/f b/f b/f, not bet/hero call.

Hand 5 - Q9ss - It's a raised pot here, no need to donk out. Check to raiser, his cbet sizing will prob help you out. Prob fold pre anyway.

--------------------------------------

You seem to overplay those turn spots in hand 1 alot, and justify it by saying "what???? pair and a flush draw and an over???? :O:O:O:O"

Well it doesn't matter how many outs you've got, if you've got less than 40% and your opponent isn't folding, it's bad.

Just like my roller spew

Dudeskin8 · April 2012

84s - C/C turn, getting it in here is crazy lol.

67o - Don't mind turn against one oppo but when other guy flats aswell I'm thinking more a better 2pair tbh but I guess it isn't awful.

QQ - Flop bet fine, when he shoves how can you ever call lol, it's not even a shorty shove, it's for your whole stack, this just looks like a tilt call to me and will be VERY costly longterm despite result here.

JJ - Don't mind 3bet pre but some people can flat worse however if they raise again they often have a monster and aren't folding, calling pre here isn't a crime either espech in a spot where effective stack is quite big.

Q9s - Very easy fold pre. Flop as played should check call for me, as if you raise you are essentially bluffing and people don't like folding any sort of hand so if they have a hand it's going in where you're like 50-50 at best and with NL4 rake it's just not worth it as you can find better spots.

J10o - This is just a cooler.

grantorino · April 2012

1- check turn

2 nh

3- idk, prob ok, doubt its Kx or better often

4- meh ok, I think considering 3b/f mightnt be bad at 4NL

5 - fold pre, prob c/c flop no one folds Qx. If you do want to get it in I prefer c/r

6- if you overbet the flop and get a call bet much bigger on the turn

AMYBR · April 2012

I was chatting to a friend in a live MTT other night who plays reg on sky @ NL4 & 8.

He is pretty good when we play live, has a good understanding/approach to game and wins @ higher cash lvl live, but he was grumbling @not beating nl4 or 8 on sky.

Reasons we explored on drive back were:

A) Our super strong hands have to hold vs multiway oppos, (preemy PP's). Plus pot will always be inflated when binkage occurs.

our strong hands have to win flips (Dominating non prs). (As above on inflation)

C) Our marginal hands have little value vs multi way.

Yes we get paid when we smack flops, but rest of time were are kind of playing with our back to the wall.

IMO is virtually impossible to be profitable vs a table of beyond laggy players based on A B + C.

rancid · April 2012

You have not got the patience to sit through the bad beats during the short term

rancid · April 2012

In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:

I was chatting to a friend in a live MTT other night who plays reg on sky @ NL4 & 8. He is pretty good when we play live, has a good understanding/approach to game and wins @ higher cash lvl live, but he was grumbling @not beating nl4 or 8 on sky. Reasons we explored on drive back were: A) Our super strong hands have to hold vs multiway oppos, (preemy PP's). Plus pot will always be inflated when binkage occurs. our strong hands have to win flips (Dominating non prs). (As above on inflation) C) Our marginal hands have little value vs multi way. Yes we get paid when we smack flops, but rest of time were are kind of playing with our back to the wall. IMO is virtually impossible to be profitable vs a table of beyond laggy players based on A B + C.
Posted by AMYBR

This is nonsense, if we play tight ABC versus this table we will won the majority of the time.
Yes they will hit draws etc... but laggy and stations = pay day whatever level

harding10 · April 2012

In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:

I was chatting to a friend in a live MTT other night who plays reg on sky @ NL4 & 8. He is pretty good when we play live, has a good understanding/approach to game and wins @ higher cash lvl live, but he was grumbling @not beating nl4 or 8 on sky. Reasons we explored on drive back were: A) Our super strong hands have to hold vs multiway oppos, (preemy PP's). Plus pot will always be inflated when binkage occurs. our strong hands have to win flips (Dominating non prs). (As above on inflation) C) Our marginal hands have little value vs multi way. Yes we get paid when we smack flops, but rest of time were are kind of playing with our back to the wall. IMO is virtually impossible to be profitable vs a table of beyond laggy players based on A B + C.
Posted by AMYBR

Can definitely say that it is possible. Table selection and patience are the keys.

unknown_username · April 2012

I have won over £500 playing NL4/NL8 and NL10. Its possible and quite easy if your well rolled.

unknown_username · April 2012

8,4 hearts hand - check turn, we havent hit, time to slow and see a cheap river if possible. Fold if you dont get odds.

6,7 off hand - overbet flop, dont think i can fold this at NL4.

Q,Q hand - Bet slightly smaller on flop if i am picky, he will fold for slightly less if he doesnt have a K normally. Dont call all-in at NL4 imo but that may be wrong.

J,J hand - he has basically told you what he has. Fold when he 4 bets.

Q,9 spades hand - fold pre.

J,10 hand - nh, v unlucky.

percival09 · April 2012

If you play good poker consistently over a long period of time you'll make money at 4nl easy - just stick at it

AMYBR · April 2012

Just my opinion, I did say @ table of beyond laggy.

Think if you have patience to crack those levels would likely be better playing higher anyway. Know plenty of live NL50 games that play as bad, if not worse.

Question have to ask self is would time be better spent playing higher, even if only marginaly so? I suspect yes.

Do we modify our game to play NL4? Are we basically perma bum hunting, looking to extract value from kamikaze pilots? Yeah. Is it high variance due to the craziness, yes. Do we bring bad habits into our game? Yes. Do we play creatively & look to improve our non nut lines....not so much.

So why not utilise the same skillset where it'll be more meaningful & skillbased.

DRSharp: Not bad at all for NL4 bud. Rake over that?

IDONKCALLU · April 2012

i hat the way u played qq yeah lead out is fine but to call a extra £4 with a overcard to the flop is pretty bad tbh with ya m8 your gambling here im suprised opponent had 5 8 lol

ilove2h8pr · April 2012

Your such a snob AMYBR lolzzz

Have you ever developed the patience to beat micro cash? Nope. Flame all your tourney wins at online cash? Yup

Dont b awll mayd

AMYBR · April 2012

In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:

Your such a snob AMYBR lolzzz Have you ever developed the patience to beat micro cash? Nope. Flame all your tourney wins at online cash? Yup Dont b awll mayd
Posted by ilove2h8pr

Regret the day I told you to join, I do :P

Elements of truth I guess, but think post has truth also.

Playing 2nite?

unknown_username · April 2012

In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:

Just my opinion, I did say @ table of beyond laggy. Think if you have patience to crack those levels would likely be better playing higher anyway. Know plenty of live NL50 games that play as bad, if not worse. Question have to ask self is would time be better spent playing higher, even if only marginaly so? I suspect yes. Do we modify our game to play NL4? Are we basically perma bum hunting, looking to extract value from kamikaze pilots? Yeah. Is it high variance due to the craziness, yes. Do we bring bad habits into our game? Yes. Do we play creatively & look to improve our non nut lines....not so much. So why not utilise the same skillset where it'll be more meaningful & skillbased. DRSharp: Not bad at all for NL4 bud. Rake over that?
Posted by AMYBR

I have heard its easier in live games. I work on winning 20xBI's before moving up a level which is why i am currently at NL8 and NL10 sort of levels. I wont move up until i prove to myself i can beat a level over a decent period of time. Its a long term aim, i learn as i go.

As for modifying our game for NL4, isnt this just a part of the game? Adapting to your opponents style. Pretty much every table is fast and loose at NL4 so the best plan is to play tight, wait until you have the goods and shovel the chips in. This takes alot of patience which quite alot of people cant handle. Advice to your mate would be to play more tables to prevent any loose calls/boredom. (Can you tell me who it is? I play alot of NL8 at the moment, if you dont want to i understand). As for bum hunting? Absolutely! Why play the regs when you have the 'kamikaze pilots' you spoke of. High variance, yep, thats why you should be properly rolled as it can be very swingy, just trust yourself to get it in good more often than not and over time you will make a profit, sometimes very slowly.

Does it bring bad habits? Nah, i'm not having it. From an absolute beginners point of view it has been an essential way to learn to play nice solid patient ABC poker without losing money. I'll tell you what, it would'nt harm some of the bigger players to have a pop sometimes just to keep their hand in and not be too out of line sometimes. As for creativity, it comes with time and at NL8 and NL10 on the right tables vs the right people then the moves come in to play more often.

Interesting post tho mate, some interesting points raised and i am just one player who disagrees through my own experience at low limits but obviously some others wont be as patient and work as hard as i have at my game so your points may be valid concerning others. Could be some intersting posts coming with varying views on this.

Lambert180 · April 2012

What's the Y stand for in BBY Don...

Pedantic FTW

AMYBR · April 2012

In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:

In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : I have heard its easier in live games. I work on winning 20xBI's before moving up a level which is why i am currently at NL8 and NL10 sort of levels. I wont move up until i prove to myself i can beat a level over a decent period of time. Its a long term aim, i learn as i go. As for modifying our game for NL4, isnt this just a part of the game? Adapting to your opponents style. Pretty much every table is fast and loose at NL4 so the best plan is to play tight, wait until you have the goods and shovel the chips in. This takes alot of patience which quite alot of people cant handle. Advice to your mate would be to play more tables to prevent any loose calls/boredom. (Can you tell me who it is? I play alot of NL8 at the moment, if you dont want to i understand). As for bum hunting? Absolutely! Why play the regs when you have the 'kamikaze pilots' you spoke of. High variance, yep, thats why you should be properly rolled as it can be very swingy, just trust yourself to get it in good more often than not and over time you will make a profit, sometimes very slowly. Does it bring bad habits? Nah, i'm not having it. From an absolute beginners point of view it has been an essential way to learn to play nice solid patient ABC poker without losing money. I'll tell you what, it would'nt harm some of the bigger players to have a pop sometimes just to keep their hand in and not be too out of line sometimes. As for creativity, it comes with time and at NL8 and NL10 on the right tables vs the right people then the moves come in to play more often. Interesting post tho mate, some interesting points raised and i am just one player who disagrees through my own experience at low limits but obviously some others wont be as patient and work as hard as i have at my game so your points may be valid concerning others. Could be some intersting posts coming with varying views on this.
Posted by DrSharp

Myehh... Nice post bud. Kind of humbled me.

You could easily have been less pleasant about it, thankyou for such a balanced inciteful reply. You prob know more about the inner workings of my game than anyone here - so might see why that level of grinding/patience may be beyond me.

Your right about adapting being a key skill - and put it very well. I suspect your totally right, but have to counter it with - how much effort would it be to adjust out of it? But I imagine the correct answer is that that is another key skill.

I didnt mean to imply that micro is worthless, which is probably how it came across. What I was really trying to say is that if you have a winning game at micros, that same game would almost universally translate to higher levels being mid level. So I question the value of grinding the micro when we can grind higher with the same game and less variance & rake.

DOHHHHHHH · April 2012

Donald has just sent me an IM saying....

"wiiiii amybr agrees with me that nl4 is unbeatable"

cba to read up coz I'm done with nl4 threads, but plz re-assure me you didn't say this.

ty

AMYBR · April 2012

As above.

Not saying its unbeatable. Am saying we have alot working against us. Where the same winning patient game will provide higher reward at marginally higher lvl with lower variance & rake.

But as luvvy has pointed out my online cash record is woeful.

IDONKCALLU · April 2012

i say who cares get drunk lol

AMYBR · April 2012

Is that the bottom of a bottle of red i see...................

DOHHHHHHH · April 2012

Anyone who has ever beaten nl4 on sky poker, (I suspect there are thousands of you out there) plz post.

I'm going to cry

The_Don90 · April 2012

In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:

i say who cares get drunk lol
Posted by IDONKCALLU

would be less expensive

AMYBR · April 2012

Doh am not saying am right, heck am totally open to be wrong.

But do you not think the same game a winning player has at NL4/8 would play favourably @ nl20/50? Doubt they become a losing player if rolled.

Am not trying to insult any profitable nl4/8 players. You have a buhzillion% more patience than I do.

IDONKCALLU · April 2012

personally i dnt play nl4 and think its hard to beat because people never ever fold i mean ever ever ever ever fold so yes if u got aces or kings u want people to call your 10000x raise preflop but these people call on flop on just bottom pair etc and hit 2 pairs and beat u this tilts me soooooooooo bad so this is y i dnt play at this level 5p/10p/and higher people respect your raise and are willing to lay down a pair on the flop each to there own if i advice any person to play poker i would not tell to play nl 4 just a opinion mind bk to drink

ilove2h8pr · April 2012

In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:

In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : Regret the day I told you to join, I do :P Elements of truth I guess, but think post has truth also. Playing 2nite?
Posted by AMYBR

Allready here losing.

See your still winning popularity contests

rancid · April 2012

Speaking from experince my NL4 game is not the same as my NL20 game overall

but if I find the same kind of player at NL4 and NL20 then I adjust

NL4 overall is so easy, NL20 by comparison is difficult

Jump on any NL4 table and you will print money, maybe you will run bad and every station will hit the gutshot but long term if you play a solid ABC TAG approach and raise 4x as standard you can't go wrong

It's very basic stuff if you have a table of laggy/stations - then charge em more

why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.

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