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why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.

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  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    ive been made aware of this thread by someone on twitter and have been asked to post some thoughts. im gonna re read the whole thread coz i cant believe its got this long so i dont want to say too much just now. all i will say just now is, i am a massive winner at this level over a long period so i guess i know a thing or 2 in how to beat it. and what dohhhhh said above i finished march around £750 up just at nl4
    Posted by TINTIN
    Over what period was the £750 made?

    No doubting you, i see you winning constantly on the tables, just curious as i start to build my own roll up at this level.

  • edited April 2012

    from looking at the hands don posted, most of it isnt unusual. there is a couple played horribly but others have already mentioned about them so no point going over it again.

    i do think don tries to over analyze things too much for this level. sometimes you just gotta take the beat n move on to the nxt hand.

  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : Over what period was the £750 made? No doubting you, i see you winning constantly on the tables, just curious as i start to build my own roll up at this level.
    Posted by Pipunch
    that was just in march
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : that was just in march
    Posted by TINTIN
    Wow. That is phenomenal. I know you win cause every game i see you in you're sat there with £6+ but i didn't think it was that much!
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : Wow. That is phenomenal. I know you win cause every game i see you in you're sat there with £6+ but i didn't think it was that much!
    Posted by Pipunch
    i was running good as well, you take heaters when you get them, that was an exceptional month i will admit it. a usual month is normally between £200-£300 for the grind. it sounds a lot but so is the amount of hands i play
  • edited April 2012
    play super nitty and it will come i suppose if u play loose aggro you wont get far at this level maybe im wrong
  • edited April 2012
    I literally don't have any idea what more can be said on this topic that hasn't been said again and again for 12+ months.

    Bet big hands, fold small ones, don't semi-bluff draws, just check/call (if you have the odds), make your hand, pile in the money. Sometimes you get bad beated, put note on player saying 'idiot called my shove with a gutshot', then rinse and repeat.
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    I literally don't have any idea what more can be said on this topic that hasn't been said again and again for 12+ months. Bet big hands, fold small ones, don't semi-bluff draws, just check/call (if you have the odds), make your hand, pile in the money. Sometimes you get bad beated, put note on player saying 'idiot called my shove with a gutshot', then rinse and repeat.
    Posted by Lambert180
    you pretty much nailed it.
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : i was running good as well, you take heaters when you get them, that was an exceptional month i will admit it. a usual month is normally between £200-£300 for the grind. it sounds a lot but so is the amount of hands i play
    Posted by TINTIN
    Aside from all this moaning abuot 4NL being unbeatable... I'd say 95%+ of us know that's nonsense but I must say TinTin, that is a mighty fine month's worth of profit from 4NL!!

    How many tables do you play and how many hours dya do a day/week/month if you don't mind me asking?

    Also, I always said that it was virtually impossible to get anything meaningful from C4P via 4NL but if you've played 300k in 2012 alone, you must have earned a few points along the way... what's an average number of poker points for you at 4NL in a month?
  • edited April 2012

    Ok hope not to bore you. I had a session before. I had £13 in account and spoke to dohhh, i said id short multitable giving me some leeway. He suggested just play 3 tables with the max. i reluctantly accepted on the basis that he'd watch via team viewer. this way we could discuss as we go.

    Ill post some hands, as i still finnished down, although i think these are all pretty standard but would still like some discussion.

    Hand 1) Not actually happy with my play pre but i knew one oppo would likley pay me if i hit. Although still not happy with it.

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    Brode Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £3.28
    The_Don90 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £3.07
     Your hole cards
    • 10
    • Q
       
    daviddev17 Fold     
    lowlife Fold     
    MARYBOBBIN Raise  £0.12 £0.18 £1.83
    Brode Call  £0.10 £0.28 £3.18
    The_Don90 Call  £0.08 £0.36 £2.99
    Flop
      
    • K
    • 10
    • 2
       
    Brode Bet  £0.04 £0.40 £3.14
    The_Don90 Call  £0.04 £0.44 £2.95
    MARYBOBBIN Call  £0.04 £0.48 £1.79
    Turn
      
    • Q
       
    Brode Bet  £0.04 £0.52 £3.10
    The_Don90 Raise  £0.46 £0.98 £2.49
    MARYBOBBIN Fold     
    Brode Call  £0.42 £1.40 £2.68
    River
      
    • 4
       
    Brode Check     
    The_Don90 Bet  £1.05 £2.45 £1.44
    Brode Call  £1.05 £3.50 £1.63
    The_Don90 Show
    • 10
    • Q
       
    Brode Muck
    • 10
    • J
       
    The_Don90 Win Two Pairs, Queens and 10s £3.23  £4.67
    hand 2) Id been having a pretty bad session to be fair. When i seen this hand decided just to go with it so i wasnt sitting around with 25BB any more. There was no reload back.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    padzmac Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £3.24
    jbpoker Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £2.80
     Your hole cards
    • 7
    • 7
       
    The_Don90 Raise  £0.20 £0.26 £0.92
    clubhammer Fold     
    padzmac Fold     
    jbpoker All-in  £2.80 £3.06 £0.00
    The_Don90 All-in  £0.92 £3.98 £0.00
    jbpoker Unmatched bet  £1.72 £2.26 £1.72
    jbpoker Show
    • K
    • 10
       
    The_Don90 Show
    • 7
    • 7
       
    Flop
      
    • 5
    • 5
    • 4
       
    Turn
      
    • Q
       
    River
      
    • 9
       
    The_Don90 Win Two Pairs, 7s and 5s £2.09  £2.09
    Hand 3) Early in the session and a common problem. This was my third biggest hand profitwise the other 2 are above. Flop i checked back as i dont think opponents are hitting that flop much, plus other than gutshots its pretty safe. The turn my bet sizing i feel was a little out.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    clemo1980 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £2.08
    Wilhelm Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £3.96
     Your hole cards
    • 7
    • 7
       
    jbpoker Raise  £0.12 £0.18 £7.26
    The_Don90 Call  £0.12 £0.30 £3.84
    clubhammer Fold     
    clemo1980 Call  £0.10 £0.40 £1.98
    Wilhelm Call  £0.08 £0.48 £3.88
    Flop
      
    • 7
    • 4
    • 2
       
    clemo1980 Check     
    Wilhelm Check     
    jbpoker Check     
    The_Don90 Check     
    Turn
      
    • Q
       
    clemo1980 Check     
    Wilhelm Bet  £0.30 £0.78 £3.58
    jbpoker Call  £0.30 £1.08 £6.96
    The_Don90 Raise  £1.34 £2.42 £2.50
    clemo1980 Fold     
    Wilhelm Fold     
    jbpoker Fold     
    The_Don90 Muck     
    The_Don90 Win  £1.27  £3.77
    The_Don90 Return  £1.04 £0.11 £4.81
    Hand 4) Last winning hand im going to show. This particular villian was calling bigger and bigger openings, so much so i increased my open every hand. By this time he was actually getting short and i decided just to set him in pre, almost double what my previous raise size had got to but felt it was correct.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    The_Don90 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £4.36
    daviddev17 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £3.66
     Your hole cards
    • A
    • K
       
    greenace Fold     
    MARYBOBBIN Fold     
    Brode Call  £0.04 £0.10 £0.70
    The_Don90 Raise  £0.74 £0.84 £3.62
    daviddev17 Fold     
    Brode All-in  £0.70 £1.54 £0.00
    The_Don90 Unmatched bet  £0.02 £1.52 £3.64
    The_Don90 Show
    • A
    • K
       
    Brode Show
    • J
    • Q
       
    Flop
      
    • K
    • 8
    • K
       
    Turn
      
    • 10
       
    River
      
    • 2
       
    The_Don90 Win Three Kings £1.40  £5.04
    Hand 5) Just a cooler i think. AQ looks pretty safe most of the time on this board. but im open to discussion
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    chelseashe Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £0.57
    Slider73 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £4.11
     Your hole cards
    • Q
    • A
       
    The_Don90 Raise  £0.20 £0.26 £4.03
    jbpoker Fold     
    clubhammer Call  £0.20 £0.46 £5.10
    cloon Fold     
    chelseashe Fold     
    Slider73 Fold     
    Flop
      
    • 7
    • 2
    • Q
       
    The_Don90 Bet  £0.35 £0.81 £3.68
    clubhammer Call  £0.35 £1.16 £4.75
    Turn
      
    • 9
       
    The_Don90 Bet  £0.87 £2.03 £2.81
    clubhammer Raise  £2.32 £4.35 £2.43
    The_Don90 All-in  £2.81 £7.16 £0.00
    clubhammer Call  £1.36 £8.52 £1.07
    The_Don90 Show
    • Q
    • A
       
    clubhammer Show
    • 2
    • 2
       
    River
      
    • 5
       
    clubhammer Win Three 2s £7.88  £8.95
    Hand 6) Think i actually got away light here. When i seen the action i was still 3 tabling and had 3bet and thought the opponent was all in hense the flat. Obviously once no cards where flipped i was curing then missing i was cursing even more. Upon seeing cards i think i got away cheap. Open for discussion again.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    mike1959 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £1.18
    Wilhelm Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £5.44
     Your hole cards
    • K
    • A
       
    jbpoker Raise  £0.12 £0.18 £6.75
    The_Don90 Raise  £0.44 £0.62 £4.34
    azukira Fold     
    clubhammer Raise  £1.72 £2.34 £4.15
    mike1959 All-in  £1.18 £3.52 £0.00
    Wilhelm Fold     
    jbpoker Fold     
    The_Don90 Call  £1.28 £4.80 £3.06
    Flop
      
    • 10
    • 9
    • 5
       
    The_Don90 Check     
    clubhammer Bet  £2.40 £7.20 £1.75
    The_Don90 Fold     
    clubhammer Unmatched bet  £2.40 £4.80 £4.15
    mike1959 Show
    • 8
    • 8
       
    clubhammer Show
    • K
    • K
       
    Turn
      
    • 2
       
    River
      
    • 9
       
    clubhammer Win Two Pairs, Kings and 9s £4.44  £8.59
    Hand 7) Final hand ill post. When i 3bet here i decided i was calling off any bets due to my stack. When the short stack called i decided that i was going to set him in on any safish looking flop. I know an over gna land most of the time but hes only got £1 back with a £1 pot. Q anded and felt the board was safe enough. Sighhh
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    The_Don90 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £2.71
    Wilhelm Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £6.03
     Your hole cards
    • J
    • J
       
    LethalBen Fold     
    ben170583 Raise  £0.12 £0.18 £1.40
    jbpoker Call  £0.12 £0.30 £5.70
    The_Don90 Raise  £0.42 £0.72 £2.29
    Wilhelm Fold     
    ben170583 Call  £0.32 £1.04 £1.08
    jbpoker Fold     
    Flop
      
    • 2
    • 3
    • Q
       
    The_Don90 All-in  £2.29 £3.33 £0.00
    ben170583 All-in  £1.08 £4.41 £0.00
    The_Don90 Unmatched bet  £1.21 £3.20 £1.21
    The_Don90 Show
    • J
    • J
       
    ben170583 Show
    • 2
    • A
       
    Turn
      
    • 6
       
    River
      
    • Q
       
    ben170583 Win Flush to the Ace £2.96  £2.96


    Please discuss these. I know most look like BBY and coolers, but that session i felt showed massive improvement, despite being 1.75BIs down. The main issue i had which isnt highlighted here was the lack of ability to get to flops with big hands, i think i had AAs and KKs a few times and never got more than 6p once. :(
  • edited April 2012
    1 fold pre readless, postflop fine
    2 fold to 3bet
    3 bet flop
    4 nh
    5 meh I would fold readless, might be a call at 4NL
    6 fold pre to cold 4b, obv jam better than flatting
    7 fine with stacksizes, I might sometimes check to him, but its going in
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : Aside from all this moaning abuot 4NL being unbeatable... I'd say 95%+ of us know that's nonsense but I must say TinTin, that is a mighty fine month's worth of profit from 4NL!! How many tables do you play and how many hours dya do a day/week/month if you don't mind me asking? Also, I always said that it was virtually impossible to get anything meaningful from C4P via 4NL but if you've played 300k in 2012 alone, you must have earned a few points along the way... what's an average number of poker points for you at 4NL in a month?
    Posted by Lambert180
    i dont mind you asking at all,

    i play 6 tables but i have a computer thats badly needing updating, its around 5 yr old n 6 tables i suffer some lag or i would be trying 8, 10 or 12 tables.

    my usual routine is play from around 11 in morn thru to 2 2:30 then start again around 5:30 n play thru til midnight, some nights its 2 or 3am depending if things are going well n im not tired. i do this most days.

    the recent reduction in points per raked hand at nl4 has hit me harder than most if im truthfull as before 31st jan i could earn 4000 points in a couple of weeks. in march i hit 4200 for £67ish for a full month of playing, i cant remember missing a day of playing but there was a couple where i only played for a couple of hours. february i earned just over 3000 n jan under old system it was over 4000. this month im only on 2350 n in truth im not going to be playing the rest of the month. i need a break as ive been hammering it for the last 7 weeks. i will start again when i receive my nxt c4p payment. i need to recharge my brain

    ive said before on other threads that i only play when im out of work hence why ive been logging so many hours in last few months
  • edited April 2012
    hand 5 against unknowns i'd call. not in this hand

    hand 6. your opponent has bashed the 4x button after your 3 bet. as good as typing his hand in the chat box.
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    1 fold pre readless, postflop fine 2 fold to 3bet 3 bet flop 4 nh 5 meh I would fold readless, might be a call at 4NL 6 fold pre to cold 4b, obv jam better than flatting 7 fine with stacksizes, I might sometimes check to him, but its going in
    Posted by grantorino
    Thanks for good responce mate. in regards to the AK hand where i flatted a 4b i genuinely thought he was all in. Ummm, may i ask, you said in a previous thread you didnt like the 3b fold of AK. So im a little confused.
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    hand 5 against unknowns i'd call. not in this hand hand 6. your opponent has bashed the 4x button after your 3 bet. as good as typing his hand in the chat box.
    Posted by TINTIN
    Being honest i think my table selection was a little off, maybe youll be able to answer that much better than others.

    Just to confirm your folding the AQ ???

    Thanks for feedback
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : Being honest i think my table selection was a little off, maybe youll be able to answer that much better than others. Just to confirm your folding the AQ ??? Thanks for feedback
    Posted by The_Don90
    in that specific hand yes im folding.

    yeah table selection could do with a little working on
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : in that specific hand yes im folding. yeah table selection could do with a little working on
    Posted by TINTIN
    thanks mate. Been a while so alot of the regs have moved on and are replaced with different ones. People i once thought where fish are now actually half decent etc.
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : thanks mate. Been a while so alot of the regs have moved on and are replaced with different ones. People i once thought where fish are now actually half decent etc.
    Posted by The_Don90
    There are plenty of new ones on me after a couple of months. I start at the bottom of the table list and scroll up looking for softer tables and noting who's sitting at several tables with a full stack.

    Bum hunting at nl4 does seem wrong somehow though. lol
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : Thanks for good responce mate. in regards to the AK hand where i flatted a 4b i genuinely thought he was all in. Ummm, may i ask, you said in a previous thread you didnt like the 3b fold of AK. So im a little confused.
    Posted by The_Don90
    Well, its a bit different when you get cold 4b, esp at 4NL. If the guy who opened 4bets, I dont think you can fold without very specific reads on his ranges for calling/4betting as you obv wanted action when you 3bet. However in this case you 3bet an utg open and a guy behind cold 4bets you are usually in big trouble readless
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level.:
    In Response to Re: why i cant beat nl4. Sigh. some BBY but want advice. sick of losing at this level. : Well, its a bit different when you get cold 4b, esp at 4NL. If the guy who opened 4bets, I dont think you can fold without very specific reads on his ranges for calling/4betting as you obv wanted action when you 3bet. However in this case you 3bet an utg open and a guy behind cold 4bets you are usually in big trouble readless
    Posted by grantorino
    ah thanks mate great explination.
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