You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
Comments
Ive beaten much harder opponents consistantly yet i cant beat NL4, Im not saying im perfect, im just better than the players calling massive raises OOP with ATC and getting lucky. Im not saying that i should just find £200 out of nowhere and start playing NL20. But im telling you at least ill be allowed to 3bet fold my AK v a tight player. Ill be allowed to fold my aces on a board that reads T29K3 because im allowed to put them on a set or two pair as it now makes up a "massive" part of their range.
IMO micro stake poker isnt poker. Yes its the same game but no matter what hand you hold 3 - 6 way your odds are reduced massivley. As a result you get a player like me. Stuck unable to beat a level because hands that should be HU hand between me and one other person suddenly gets every guy in the world thinking "ohhhh ive hit bottom pair in a 9bet pre flop action i must go all in here" turn gives them to pair. Now im the fish.
Sighhhhhhhhhhh
Rant over.
But thats your choice. I suggest you read a bit more before making a rude remark
You're making so many mistakes pre and post flop IMO.
The key to breaking even at this level is to play strongly with your strong hands and fold anything where you're less than 100%. For instance, going all in with the JJ. With the re-raise coming you're only ever going to be behind, so shoving is horrendously bad i think (people may disagree). I've found with hands like this to see a flop, check for no scare cards and then gauge your opponents reaction - doing this in position is key also. If nothing comes then it's no shame to just bin them if you're getting bad odds to call given the pre-flop action. People at this level usually only bet when they've got it.
Another thing i've noticed about my own game - i've lost an awful lot on bad pre-flop cards when i've been allowed to limp in with them on the big blind and have caught a piece of the flop. "GREAT!" you think, when you've hit top pair. Only to find out you're outkicked. The thing about betting with anything less than massive premium pairs and face cards when you've been allowed to limp in is you have absolutely zero idea of what your opponent is holding. Now i will often fold top pair, mid-kicker when facing a large bet if i've been allowed to limp in. People might say this is crazy but it seems to be saving me money.
Some of the hands you posted are coolers and some are just plain unlucky but a fair few of them are down to bad play on your part.
I think you need to tighten up your range at this level also
The Q9 is a fold, suspect i was on tilt by that stage and the 84 i played badly post flop.
I think adapting your game is vital in poker whether you are playing NL100 or NL4. If, for some unknown reason, i found myself on a table with the regs at NL4 when i was there (dudeskin, thedon, rancid, junglegeek,zedsdeadba, tintin, harding10 etc) i would know they would be good enough to lay down top pair on certain boards whereas if i am on a table of your 'kamikaze's' i would know i couldnt get them off and just wait for a better spot. I suppose when you play at a live event you will quickly realise the players who are unbluffable and adjust your game when heads up with them. Its the same at NL4/NL8/NL10. Some players are better than others and you have to know if they are capable of a big laydown or not. Thats your edge.
I know you were'nt implying micros are worthless but it does rankle slightly when some people say its unbeatable when it is probably the easiest level you can ever play. Whats not to like about people refusing to fold hands? Give me that every day of the week. One hand i remember from months ago was i had AA in the big blind and pretty much everybody limped (it was a 10 handed table), i shoved 100xbb in the middle and got called by 2,3 hearts. He obviously hit his flush but how good is that? Who doesnt want him on the table. He got there that time but let me tell you that he must have passed a fair amount to me over the few times i played him both before and after. I was actually quite happy about losing as it meant he carried on playing for a few more months. If they dont get lucky then they will never play again.
Just gonna post some hands, not for people to analyse really, just to show what people play like. These are the winning pots over 50p during my session. Hope you dont mind don! Sorry if its a bit hijacky, just thought i would post some ranges to be found at NL4.
As already said, its not an insult to micro players. Its just that I think they can play the same game higher, still be profitable, likely experience less variance (& self lvling) and pay less rake.
If someone is making a profit at micros, despite the elements counting against it, then more credit to them. As I said I know nl50 games that play farrrrrrrrrrrr worse.
I guess despite my efforts its obv coming off as insulting but didnt mean it that way.
Another point i would like to make. It may come across as a bit braggish and maybe a bit of a dig at the don some of the things i have said/posted but me and don have spoken about this before. Don has a good game and he has a very good understanding of the game and he has said to me before that he may overthink things at NL4 and i do think thats his problem.
He once won a decent sized pot against me at NL4 (big regarding no of BB's) with something like 4,5 suited vs my A,Q. I dont think the don realises that playing 4,5 suited is spewy at this level. As DOHHHHHHH's strategy says, its all about getting value for your big hands. 4,5 suited, unless really priced in, should not be anywhere near our range when attempting to beat NL4.
84hh flopped second pair + flush draw, 50% equity against most hands, Played turn terrible admitted.
TJo - flopped the nuts
67 - Flopped 2 pair potted, bet folded turn when i suspected i was behind.
Any more to comment on this?
Again my apologies.
Seemed oddly out of character for you.
I think mostly played @ NL 20 & 50 on sky & havent read dohs well received doc on NL4 strategy. Its not an ego or snob thing, just that I need the amounts to be reasonable or I will just not play my game & will b a pure payoff wizard (even more so)
But from what you say about the 45 hand:
Are we just not going to play any hand of equity because its micro stakes? I have replied in many threads talking about losing min vb max and creating windows of opportunity. But is the range of hands we advocate playing at NL4 really that tight? esp when we feel oppos will pay us off on favourable boards?
As for multiway pots, we need a really big hand to continue multiway, i'm talking flopping 2 pair +. As you see from the AK hand i posted, if you raise big enough, you will isolate. If you keep getting called multiway, bet even bigger. On certain tables i will just open shove 100xbb at NL4 with big pairs knowing the table is that loose i will get a call. Can i do it at NL8, no, it doesnt work, but at NL4 you will often find a call from any hand like pocket 2's upwards along with hands like J,10+ alot of the time.
Is it correct poker? No, not really, but its profitable against some of the opponents you are up against and then we are back to adapting to your surroundings.
Its been a very good learnng tool for me and to be fair i learnt alot from Dons original thread 'taking on NL4'. Loads of hand histories in there to disect, not necessarily Dons plays and the analysis given on them but also the ranges of a typical recreational player at NL4.
Honestly, the way it is sometimes described as unbeatable is laughable, i dont understand it. Don beat it once and maybe, just maybe moved up too soon but he may tell you different. Me and DOHHHHHHH disagreed on the amount of BI's needed to move up. He knows how to beat it, he just doesnt seem to handle the swings and beats so well.
(Sorry for talking about you as a third person on your thread Don)
Also shanxta i wa styping the very following post was getting typed as you posted so i hadnt seen it. was aimed in general.
May i ask when ive ignored people?
I was a better than break even player at mtt's and stt's before playing cash.
When I first started nl4 I was break even rather than profitable but took the view that it meant I had leaks in my game, worked at it and improved. I know that to move up will require more skills, but making moves on players atnl4 who aren't good enough to fold is setting fire to money
It is beatable, and once you can beat it you should always have something to fall back on.
The uber nitty play hasn't done my mtt results any good but the cash profit is more than covering that..
Hopefully will have a pop at moving up a bit come the Autumn, but not interested in putting any volume in at the moment. Don't currently have the BR to play higher and won't be depositing to attempt to move up.
You obviously don't need my thoughts or anyone elses on the matter as you just analysed your own play. Carry on losing and then whining that the players are bad.
Flopped top pair (the almighty 8) and also had a nowhere-near-the-nuts flush draw. You were in so good the only mistake you made is not re-mortgaging so you could get even more money in.
Ive actually moved up on two occassions. Once getting as high as NL20. took a shot on a show table done brilliant and moved back to my normal NL20 the next night and ran bad, played bad, lost. Simply everything went bad.
The second time, i got to NL10 and i suspect this is the one youll be talking about. I managed to get to £230 ran bad and didnt move back down after a bad session. This was an obvious mistake.
The issue i have at NL4 is imo you have to be rolled. Thats something that i aint, and lets face it im not the tightest player in history. As i once stated nl4 makes me feel like a brain dead ape. I know it sounds strange but im a far better player when opponents are making me make a desision. Weather it be "am i good here/" or "how much should i be value betting".
Also i said 50% equity against most hands. I said i spewed on the turn. but i believe i got 2 callers with 2 worse hands no draw on the flop. One of which had one out.
At NL8 an NL10 i may play 4,5 in position but at NL4 i'd just fold. If i am playing 4,5 suited at a higher level i am not just hoping to hit 2 pair+ to continue but looking for the boards which will let me take the hand down at a later street in position. Thats fine if we are playing people who can read the dangers on the board. At NL4, the thinking is literally, 'i have pocket 8's, i have a monster, i will put all my chips in the middle' even if there is an Ah,Qh,10h flop. They dont even need the 8h mate. The other issue is that mostly players will not be 100xbb deep so the implied odds can be very poor for hands like 4,5suited. You cant turn your hand in to a bluff so there is just not enough value in speculative hands like this, even in position.
In all honesty AMYBR, just give DOHHHHHHH's thing a read, it doesnt matter if you dont play at these levels its just really well written and explains probably better than i ever will the way to beat NL4. It will take you 10 minutes at most. Pass it on to your mate.
https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/poker-school/beat-small-stakes-cash-games-1?tracking=pokersleftnav
Obviously not forcing you to read it but it may explain better than i can.
Anyway, i'm far from an expert but how i would get away from these hands:
84h - bin them once raised on turn.
QQ - depending on the opponent i fold in fear of the king but at this level probably call the all in.
JJ - insta fold to such a strong raise.
Q9 - insta fold, wouldn't even make up the small blind.
Most of my game is disguising range with constant aggression. I just dont think i could play a format where all my value comes from my oppos making constant mistakes and my strong hands holding vs draws.
I will read dohs thing as I hear its good.
The don, dont see a point where you've been out of line in this thread tbh, but I;ll look closer
As usual, its good talking these things through.
At Don, are you giving NL4 a go again then or you finished for good?