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Can an old dog learn new tricks?

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  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:
    Nice to see you running good/playing good Tony. I'm on a bit of a break at the moment. Need to get my head sorted after 2 weeks of brutal river cards. I guess its good to be ahead on the flop and turn but getting rivered so many times recently has sort of messed my mind up a bit. May drop down a level or so when i come back , so you might not bump into me until confidence is restored. GL Mick
    Posted by VespaPX
    Thanks Mick, but that's sad news, you are great fun to share tables with, & you take your beats like a proper grown-up.

    I'm afraid I may be partly responsible, as I've been inflicting a few bad beats on you, I recall them earlier this week on my "hot" night.
     
    Even though it is a low-variance game, on some nights we just cannot do a thing right, beat after beat. On a "thin" bankroll, that can be really painful.
     
    I've watched you play countless times, & you seem to be really solid, & so I'm pretty sure that Miss Variance is just having some sport with you.
     
    Hope your fortunes soon take a turn for the better.
     
    As a reminder of the good times we have shared, here's some spanners.
     




  • edited July 2014
    Contemplated playing a couple to mix it up after early MTT exits but just decided to stick to NLH DYMs. I understand Omaha and the starting hands but how does this vary in PLO8? If you don't mind me asking. Do we factor in the Lo part that often?
  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:
    Contemplated playing a couple to mix it up after early MTT exits but just decided to stick to NLH DYMs. I understand Omaha and the starting hands but how does this vary in PLO8? If you don't mind me asking. Do we factor in the Lo part that often?
    Posted by Matt237
    Yes Matt, the Lo part is very important.
    AKQ2 is about a billion times better a hand than AKQJ.
  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:
    One game started, & a chap announced "I've regged for the wrong game, I have never played PLO8, & have no idea how to, can anyone help me?" As PLO8 players are generally helpful & friendly, everyone was busy advising what to play, how to play, what a "low" was, that sort of thing. Shame really. The same chap pulled the same trick TWICE last night, & twice last week.   "I've never played this before". Err, I think you have, Bud. It's extraordinary what folks will do to gain an edge.  
    Posted by Tikay10
    I regged for a cash game a few weeks ago and got all my money in with the nut low and a draw to the nut flush. The nut flush draw missed but instead of splitting the pot all the chips went the other way!

    The moral of the story is check you are sitting at a PLO8 table and not a PLO table before committing £100 with a low hand and a draw! Oops
  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:
    In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Thanks Mick, but that's sad news, you are great fun to share tables with, & you take your beats like a proper grown-up. I'm afraid I may be partly responsible, as I've been inflicting a few bad beats on you, I recall them earlier this week on my "hot" night.   Even though it is a low-variance game, on some nights we just cannot do a thing right, beat after beat. On a "thin" bankroll, that can be really painful.   I've watched you play countless times, & you seem to be really solid, & so I'm pretty sure that Miss Variance is just having some sport with you.   Hope your fortunes soon take a turn for the better.   As a reminder of the good times we have shared, here's some spanners .  
    Posted by Tikay10
    Cheers Tony
    That means a lot.
    Went for a long drive for work today down along the coast to Saltdean & Eastbourne.
    Lovely scenery down there, didn't get tempted to go to Beachy Head though after my recent bad beats ! :-)
    Got a busy few days this week but expect to be back on the tables at the weekend.
    May top up what i lost over the last couple of weeks and jump back into the £3 tables.
    Be my first top up since joining the site :-)

    On and i forgot to mention , whilst watching the Open and listening to Peter Allis, he sort of reminded me of you.
    Wittty banter , funny stories , and just loves the game.

    Catch up with you soon.
    Mick
  • edited July 2014

    22nd July Numbers & Stuff


    Played 30

    Won 21

    Lost 9

    £3.30, P 18, W 14, L 4

    £5.50, P 8, W 4 L 4

    £11, P 4, W 3, L 1

    Opening Balance - £1,322.05

    Closing Balance = £1,358.65

    Profit Loss on Night - £36.60

    Profit Loss on Month = £65.45

    REWARD POINTS on night = 134

    REWARD POINTS IN MONTH = 2,001 (= £20.01)

    GAMES PLAYED IN MONTH = 485

    GAMES WON IN MONTH = 278

    JULY WIN % = 57.3%
  • edited July 2014

    The Mini Heater continues, another good night & banked a £36 profit. That makes 5 winning nights on the bounce, for an aggregate £160 in profit, wowzers.
     
    It can't continue of course, much of it is run-good, but I have tweaked a few things in my game, & most of all, made a conscious decision to CONCETRATE more, & not mess about surfing the net & watching TV whilst playing.
     
    The very first game to fill up was an £11er, that's never happened before, & I won the first 6 games, & was rocking & rolling, but you know poker, I then promptly lost the next 4, after which I settled into a good rythym & pace.

    4 @ £11 ran, which is good, & I managed to win 3. These make all the difference, of course.

    The traffic, considering the time of year, is extraordinary, & come the dark nights, I think the PLO8 DYM's will be heaving, especially as more & more are switching to the beautiful game.

    Good to have Twiglet Lady & MOTHER back amongst us, too.
     
    A most enjoyable evening.
       
  • edited July 2014


    23rd July Numbers & Stuff


    Played 30

    Won 15

    Lost 15

    £3.30, P 24, W 10, L 14

    £5.50, P 6, W 5 L 1

    £11, P 0, W 0, L 0

    Opening Balance - £1,358.65

    Closing Balance = £1,356.42

    Profit Loss on Night - £2.20

    Profit Loss on Month = £63.25

    REWARD POINTS on night = 102

    REWARD POINTS IN MONTH = 2,103 (= £21.03)

    GAMES PLAYED IN MONTH = 515

    GAMES WON IN MONTH = 293

    JULY WIN % = 56.9%
  • edited July 2014

    Wow, what a let-down.
     
    After 5 winning nights, it went a bit wrong last night & I lost £2.

    It could have been much worse though, & I made a great recovery to get so close to profit.

    Lost TEN of the first 15, & that's a big hole to get out of, but I managed a Game Count of 15-15 in the end, & with the £5.50ers going well, I repaired much of the earlier damage. It felt like a win in the end.

    Had some concentration issues early on, and what felt like some serious (& well overdue) run-bad, but I certainly made a couple of errors & was not playing as well as I am able, & that cost a few bob.
     
    Need to get back on my winning bike tonight. I'll DEFFO not be viewing the Community tonight. ;)
      
  • edited July 2014


    Hi Tikay

    Normally play mtts  but due to work started  to play small cash omaha.

    Payed my entrance fee first few months but really loving the dynamic of the game fast and furious or slow and patient.

    Be great if you could find time to come over and see us next week between 10 30 and midnight one night.

    I normally play 10 20 games run most evenings.

    Daggers


  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:
    Hi Tikay Normally play mtts  but due to work started  to play small cash omaha. Payed my entrance fee first few months but really loving the dynamic of the game fast and furious or slow and patient . Be great if you could find time to come over and see us next week between 10 30 and midnight one night. I normally play 10 20 games run most evenings. Daggers
    Posted by daggers747
    OK Daggers, consider that BOOKED.

    It's amazing how many peple on Sky Poker are discovering the joys of PLO8, & realising that it helps bring the FUN back into the game.
     
    There were a whole bunch of new faces playing PLO8 DYM's last night, & they all seemed to enjoy it. Remember, we play poker to ENJOY ourselves. Work can be a right pain, so can mowing the lawn, or taking the family to Sainsburys on a Saturday. When we play poker, it's meant to be our fun-time.
     
    Mind you, I was donating left right & centre last night, so that might have helped....
     
  • edited July 2014

    24th July Numbers & Stuff


    Played 35

    Won 10

    Lost 25

    £3.30, P 24, W 8, L 16

    £5.50, P 8, W 1 L 7

    £11, P 3, W 1, L 2

    Opening Balance - £1,356.42

    Closing Balance = £1,284.25

    Profit Loss on Night - £72.20

    Profit Loss on Month = £8.95

    REWARD POINTS on night = 142

    REWARD POINTS IN MONTH = 2,242 (= £22.42)

    GAMES PLAYED IN MONTH = 550

    GAMES WON IN MONTH = 303

    JULY WIN % = 55.1%
  • edited July 2014


    I mean, how is that even POSSIBLE?

    Played 7 @ £5.50. Won 1.

    Played 24 @ £3.30. Won 8.

    Incred!

    It felt like people just kept getting there against me, but it's not possible to play well & lose that many games, is it? So I'm sure as things got worse, I played worse.

    In one £11 game, there were 4 of us left @ 400-800, so a bit fraught & tense. Chap on the button had 3 bigs. And limp folded to my BB shove! I nearly fainted.    

    Won just 6 of the first 15, not good, but I can recover from that.
     
    Won 5 of the next 15. WHAT?

    Decided to play a little longer, to claw a bit back, so played 5 more games than my usual 30.

    Lost every one.

    Marv.

    So having made over £100 in that 5 night glorious heater, I gave 70% of it back in one night.
     
    See you guys tonight for the recovery mission. Don't mess with me, right?
  • edited July 2014


    PS - That font colour is called blood red.
  • edited July 2014
    Hey Tikay,

    Not a nice feeling Im sure. However I do love the car crash pic.....I could have done with that the other day after losing 6 straight over 3 days! yikes.
     
    When you have a bad run what goes through your mind the next day when you have had time to regroup your thoughts?

    Personally I think bad days keep you honest and it is the bad days that keep me motivated to come back and win again!


    Hope it turns for you tonight!




  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:
    Contemplated playing a couple to mix it up after early MTT exits but just decided to stick to NLH DYMs. I understand Omaha and the starting hands but how does this vary in PLO8? If you don't mind me asking. Do we factor in the Lo part that often?
    Posted by Matt237
    Hi Matt,

    Gooid to see you on the PLO8 tables last night.

    Macacgirl (Twiglet Lady), who is a BIG winner @ PLo8 DYM's, & a far better player than me,  answered that question perfectly, when she said....

    "....Yes Matt, the Lo part is very important.
    AKQ2 is about a billion times better a hand than AKQJ...."


    Well not quite a billion times better, but relatively speaking, MUCH better.

    Let's look at that a bit closer.
     
    We can rank hands, over a large sample (100,000 hands) by how many times they will scoop (get the lot) or get at least part back, usually half. The lower the rating, the better the hand.
     
    To better explain the difference, I've asumed the A-2-Q-K is DS, & the A-K-Q-J is NS.

    A-2-K-Q - Ranked 95 of 5,300 hands.

    A-K-Q-J - Ranked 979 of 5,300 hands.

    What % of time do we scoop?

    A-2-K-Q - 15%

    A-K-Q-J - 11%

    What % of time do we get PART of our money back? (Usually half). 

    A-2-K-Q - 30%

    A-K-Q-J - 15%

    So, in short, we get SOMETHING back 30% of the time with A-2-K-Q, compared to 15% with A-K-Q-J.
     
    Now, look at those numbers a different way.

    With A-2-K-Q, this is a PREMIUM HAND by any criteria. When we all have, say 8 Bigs @ 150-300, we are NEVER folding this hand, it's a monster. Now add in what % of time we force folds with A-2-K-Q, & that 30% increases massively.

    If we get in a rasing war with A-2-K-Q, we are happy to get a caller. With A-K-Q-J, we need to force a fold ideally, as it does not play well.   
     
  • edited July 2014


    By the bye, BAD Aces are even worse than A-K-Q-J.

    If we take A-A-K-9, this ranks as 1,995 out of 5,300, which is far worse than A-K-Q-J. It's one pair which can barely improve.

    I'd play it late stages, if I KNOW I can get it heads up, but early doors, it goes in the bin, as we can rarely get it heads up.

    All, imo, of course, from the bloke who did £70 in cold blood last night....
      
  • edited July 2014
    Far better player than you?
    Do behave!
    90% of the time I am capable I think, 10% of the time I am more interested in whatever it is I am eating or drinking at that moment in time!

    This time next week, last nights battering will be a distant memory to you, bet ya.

    I'm not playing today (just as well, I usually do rubbish on a Friday) but will see you and the usual gang tomorrow if you about.
  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:
    Far better player than you? Do behave! 90% of the time I am capable I think, 10% of the time I am more interested in whatever it is I am eating or drinking at that moment in time! This time next week, last nights battering will be a distant memory to you, bet ya. I'm not playing today (just as well, I usually do rubbish on a Friday) but will see you and the usual gang tomorrow if you about.
    Posted by Macacgirl1
    I'd swap with your game any day. Dependable, solid, class. You never have £70 losing sessions, either! We bumped heads a few times last night, eh? Great atmo on the table last night though. I can't chat much, too many Tables, but I read it all.  
     
    Enjoy whatever you do tonight, & I'll see you tomorrow. Twiglet Party tonight, right?

    I plan on 2 big sessions this weekend, as I'm desperately trying to reach 3,000 Reward Points in July, & I only have 6 nights left, so I need 125 points per night.

    By the bye, I've started a PLO8 DYM "HELP, TIPS & ADVICE" thread, be great if you could pop in & help out now & then, ditto anyone else, especially the likes of Ger, Footsie, Alexis, & all the other good Ploppers. It's HERE
     
  • edited July 2014
    Well there must have been some big winners last night Tikay as you and I both donated all evening. Rather than try and ride it out like you did I cut my session short in order to avoid adding to the pain. Not only were my PLO8 STTs bad but I also discovered that QJ all in pre flop is miles ahead of any Ace in holdem MTTs, at least it was when I held the ace hand as I think I was busted or crippled by that match up in 3 of 4 MTTs.

    Anyway onwards and upwards and hope to see you and the others at the tables over the weekend.  
  • edited July 2014

    25th July Numbers & Stuff


    Played 45

    Won 30

    Lost 15

    £2.20 P 1, W 0, L 1

    £3.30, P 33, W 23, L 10

    £5.50, P 11, W 7 L 4

    £11, P 0, W 0, L 0

    Opening Balance - £1,284.25.42

    Closing Balance = £1,314.60

    Profit Loss on Night - £30.35

    Profit Loss on Month = £21.40

    REWARD POINTS on night = 160

    REWARD POINTS IN MONTH = 2,402 (= £24.02)

    GAMES PLAYED IN MONTH = 595

    GAMES WON IN MONTH = 333

    JULY WIN % = 56.0%
  • edited July 2014


    Phew, that was better.
     
    Decided to have a big session - 45 games - & seemed  to be able to control most of my games. There'll always be outdraws & stuff, but I did not make too many mistakes last night, only two really bad ones that I recall or recognized.
     
    I always like to try & get a clean sweep by winning overall at all buy-in levels, but failed when I mistakenly regged for a £2.20 & lost it. Won very well @ £3.30 & £5.50 though.

    Anyway, back into profit for July (& that excludes Reward Points money), & got the Win Ratio back up to 56%.  

    Not a single £11er ran all evening, but that apart, traffic was good, & tons of new faces turned up.
     
    Really concentrated hard last night, & that made all the difference I think. Guess I ran well, too.

    Best Reward Points haul of the month, 160 points, so I'm not quite dead yet in my quest for 3,000 Reward Points in July. I have 5 sessions left (am working on the 31st), & will be doing everything I can to get there. It "only" makes £15 of difference (£45 instead of £30) but in the context of an average buy-in of less than a fiver, & my starting 'roll of £200, it's actually a lump of money, & worth trying for.
     
    Good atmo again last night, there was no trash talking nonsense.
     
    Will be hoping to have another big session tonight.   
     
  • edited July 2014
    Haha well done Tikay very nice pic! The ups and down of poker eh. Car crash for me lastnight on Sky lost all 4 boohoo. Off on holidays now for a few days and no poker!

    After yesterdays run I think I need a break.

    Good luck all
  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:
    Haha well done Tikay very nice pic! The ups and down of poker eh. Car crash for me lastnight on Sky lost all 4 boohoo. Off on holidays now for a few days and no poker! After yesterdays run I think I need a break. Good luck all
    Posted by gerardirl
    Yes, I saw you were running a bit bad, some nights it just happens.

    Have a great break, & thanks for posting on the Strategy Thread, that was a great post.

    The photo. Amazing what a roller-coaster of swings & swongs, ups & downs, poker is. It must be horrible if you don't have the mettle do handle the swings & swongs, & I can understand why some folks get uppity, but really, they need to understand, thats just how poker works. Best to get used to it, & take it in our stride, or quit the game, imo. Poker don't 'arf expose our character & backbone.
     
  • edited July 2014


    A word about my mate, Vespa, who is enduring a torrid run at the moment. 

    Watched him last night, he could not win a hand to save his life, he did everything right, every time, & just kept getting coolered or outdrawn. Not nice to see, especially for such a top bloke. He never moaned once, but I could tell it was hurting.
     
    Oddly, he put me in a peculiar spot.

    He was down to about 3 or 4 bigs I think, & Potted from UTG. I was in the BB, with plenty of chips. He's a wily player, so I KNOW he does not have to have much here, he can & should jam pretty wide.
     
    Should I call?

    I'm not much of a caller really, I much prefer to be the bettor, & play my own hands to my own agenda, rather than react to what others do.
     
    My hand was not good, & I was pretty sure I'd probably be in bad shape. I thought & thought.....& somehow, it came into my mind, that if I called & outdrew him again, I'd feel really bad. After some soul-searching, I found the fold. It might have beeen that he had a grerat hand, & if I called I'd double him up, so maybe I did him no favours after all.
     
    Daft, & wrong, yes yes, I know, but these, surely, are the emotions we deal with all the time.
     
    Have to add, a rigorous belief of mine is NEVER DOUBLE UP A GOOD PLAYER. I think that was my main reason for folding. 

    So many beautifully complex decisions we have to make during an evening of poker.
     
    What a great game it is.

    Anyway Mick, hope you soon start running better. It'll feel terrific, it really will.
      
  • edited July 2014
    i must be awful because tikay doubles me up everytime. viva el presidente robertoooooooo
  • edited July 2014
    In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:
    Hey Tikay, Not a nice feeling Im sure. However I do love the car crash pic.....I could have done with that the other day after losing 6 straight over 3 days! yikes.   When you have a bad run what goes through your mind the next day when you have had time to regroup your thoughts? Personally I think bad days keep you honest and it is the bad days that keep me motivated to come back and win again! Hope it turns for you tonight!
    Posted by gerardirl
    Great questions, & wise advice.

    What goes through my mind, after a session like that £70 loss the other day? All sorts!

    First up, I try not to think about it straight after the session. Sleeping on it, & re-visiting after time to reflect, always produces a better balanced thought process.It certainly does damage my admittedly fragile self-confidence though.
     
    I guess my thoughts went like this....
     
    Re-assure myself.

    Over a period in which I have ONLY played PLO8 DYM's, I am a small winning player. Not much, about £750 over a whopping 3,800 games, so only about £0.20 per game. That's a big sample size though, & I'm getting better as I learn more, so I think I should be able to accept nights like that are going to happen now & then, & I'm not as bad as a night like that suggests. 

    Understand variance.
     
    It is SUCH an extraordinarily powerful thing. Nobody, nobody on earth, is immune.
     
    Self-Examine

    This is the most important thing. It's easy to think or say "those idiots keep calling with garbage & hitting", or "the software is rigged" & all that stuff. It's nonsense of course. Over time, we get EXACTLY the results our game deserves. If we are good enough, we'll win, it we are not, we'll lose.

    The 10,000 Hand Test

    I just accept that the best hand does not always win, or that sometimes we go in with a very good hand & just plum bump into a bigger one. It happens.
     
    So I try to say to myself, "if I played that hand, in that spot, that way, 10,000 times, how often should I win?" If it is more than 5,000, than I'm doing it right, & variance will take care of me over time. Outdraws, honestly & truly, don't bother me one iota, never have, never will. They are what makes poker so good.
     
    Could I have done better?

    The answer is usually "yes". 

    In this case, my weakness, I think, is that when I get "behind" during a session, I get overly aggro, & don't exercise enough patience, I "press" too hard to try & retrieve losses. I need to repair that leak. I'm pretty sure that if I stuck to my stratgy & formula, I SHOULD have lost £30 or £40 that night, due to genuine run-bad. Instead, I pressed too hard & done much more.
     
    Concentration

    I do think a night off every now & then does me good. When I have winning sessions, the common theme is CONCENTRATION, thinking about every single hand, carefully.

    Some nights though my mind wanders, or I have work or life worries crowding my mind. These almost invariably tie in with losing nights. 

    As it happens, I had a big "fire" to deal with last night on a Forum, which was frazzling my head. So I just decided to log off that Forum completely, & refuse to think about it until this morning. 

    System Check

    Am I doing everything correct, or have I developed a little leak in my game? Usually I find little errors creeping in. That's why bad nights are good.  


    Anyway, I did my utter best last night, really tried my best, & ended up winning about £0.70 per game, in mostly £3 games, over a 45 game sample. Happy with that, very happy. The bounce-back nights are one of the best things about poker. Tonight, who knows? That's another great thing, we just don't know. 

    I do know that before every poker session I ever have, I get ridiculously excited & nervous, & can't wait to get started. If I did not, I'd give the game up, right away.     
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