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P.S. This is a hand that just happened.
Would be great to hear people's thoughts on hand 11.
Best of luck to you in it! Let us know how it goes
I keep meaning to go to the Genting casino as someone said their tourneys are quite good.
Chiggy and Eon vote for potting it. To be honest this may have had the same result as the way I played it.
The fact I was on the BTN and had position, and also the stack sizes were important for me here.
The UTG player had potted it, so they basically had put every chip in that they were allowed to. I didn't think this was purely down to hand strength, but rather a mixture of hand strength and steam as they had lost a few pots and were low on chips. With the hand I have and their stack I am happy to get it in here but we have a slight problem in so much as the player in the hijack has come along.
I thought (rightly or wrongly) that if I pot it the initial raiser might think I have a monster and go into flat call mode. I do hate it when we pot in these situations as we think 'okay lets get them in', we pot it and the initial raiser flat calls and gives the other player in the pot odds to call. We end up with a super inflated pot, 3 way, and unless we nail the flop are not quite sure where we are.
I therefore decided to look like I was being tricky and miniraise back at them (I know in NLHE this can be construed as having a monster but the dynamics in PLO8 are very different). I was hoping they would 'put their foot down' and continue to put every chip they could into the pot. If this happened then it puts the hijack caller to a tough decision as they realise they may have to play for their stack but we have still only put 240 chips in the pot.
We also have the BTN so even if the initial miniraiser doesn't bite and they just flat call, we get to play a hand that flops well in position post flop. The initial raiser does bite though, the hijack gets out the way, we reraise and get it in preflop as intended.
It turns out quite a thin read but we are marginally ahead and hold.
Thanks for the comments folks! Will post the result of the hand below and move on to the next hands.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
SB
Small blind
20.00
20.00
1117.50
BB
Big blind
40.00
60.00
2000.00
Your hole cards
· Jh
· Ah
· Kc
· 3c
UTG
Raise
140.00
200.00
1952.50
Hijack
Call
140.00
340.00
4215.00
CO
Fold
markycash
Raise
240.00
580.00
3360.00
SB
Fold
BB
Fold
UTG
Raise
780.00
1360.00
1172.50
Hijack
Fold
markycash
Raise
2720.00
4080.00
640.00
UTG
All-in
1172.50
5252.50
0.00
markycash
Unmatched bet
867.50
4385.00
1507.50
UTG
Show
· As
· 5d
· Qd
· 3h
markycash
Show
· Jh
· Ah
· Kc
· 3c
Flop
· 10s
· 10h
· Ks
Turn
· 3d
River
· 5s
markycash
Win high
Two Pairs, Kings and 10s
4385.00
5892.50
No qualifying low hand
Hand 13:We get 36K7 double suited in the hijack position. Similar to the last hand, this can look pretty and we also have some sort of low orientation to the hand. It is just a messy hand at this stage and one we can get into trouble with so again, no need to get involved, we fold and wait on a better spot.
We play hand 14 which I will detail below...
I replied on the outcome and line taken the post before you posted. Be great to have your opinion on the approach.
I will post the next hand then reply to the points you made, which were excellent points!
The SB checks and action is on us with 2 players behind. As in other hands, we have flopped the nuts but have to be cautious. If any 8 T Q or K come on the turn we could be dead in the water. There also are not many turns that don't put some sort of low, flush or other straight draw on the board. Also the board could pair, leaving the possibility that we have met a full house.
Due to these factors and the fact we are still on the 'liberal with their chips' table... If we are going for value, now may be the only time we can do so. I therefore pot it for 160 and both the CO and SB flat call and we see a turn which is the Jh. When we pot it here we are obviously opening the pot up to higher bets on later streets. We have to be prepared not to get 'married' to the hand if the board runs out bad. The jack which falls on the turn is definitely in our opponents ranges of cards which they flat called the flop with. They could have boated up but quite possibly just have trips. I think loads of missed straight draws are still in their ranges and even backdoor low draws which are now dead in the water.
The SB checks to me, I check to see what the CO behind me does but they check too and the river is the Qd. The SB checks again on the river and action is on us.
So what do we do?
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
SB
Small blind
20.00
20.00
4035.00
markycash
Big blind
40.00
60.00
5852.50
Your hole cards
· 8C
· 3S
· 2C
· 10D
UTG
Fold
CO
Call
40.00
100.00
2000.00
BTN
Call
40.00
140.00
3120.00
SB
Call
20.00
160.00
4015.00
markycash
Check
Flop
· 9H
· JD
· 7C
SB
Check
markycash
Bet
160.00
320.00
5692.50
CO
Call
160.00
480.00
1840.00
BTN
Fold
SB
Call
160.00
640.00
3855.00
Turn
· JH
SB
Check
markycash
Check
CO
Check
River
· QD
SB
Check
markycash
What is our play here?
1. Cut off covers us, is he likely to get out of the way.
It is very possible they do not if we pot it and the initial raiser flat calls and offers the cut-off nice odds. That was the main reason I went for the 'inducing miniraise'.
2. Are we prepared to play for stacks.
With the shorter stack, yes. I think we are marginally ahead and that our hand will play quite well against their range. Against the bigger stack, all in preflop, no, we would rather not. If they 5bet all in to isolate the shorter stack we are just going away and accepting the 240 chip loss and looking for a spot we can control more. If they both go all in, again a very reluctant, no. We have a nice hand even for a 3 way all in and wouldn't be in awful shape but as you pointed out, it would all just be a bit too marginal in this set-up and there should be better spots.
The shorter stack can still do us damage but as mentioned I think we are ahead of their range and if it all goes Pete Tong we have a few chips to try and muscle back into the game with.
3. is the bounty worth us taking a high variance approach. Whilst I agree that we have good equity in the hand, it is still relatively early and I think you have a good edge in these games, not sure that flipping is pushing your edge.
Thanks for the kind words. I do dread seeing you on my table, one player I like to avoid if possible. I know you don't put up with any of my BS :-p
To answer the question. No the bounty isn't worth a high variance approach IMO. Happy to get it in with the shorter stack but that is why I took the line I did and had some fold scenarios in there. Definitely don't just want to flip for stacks 3 way every time I get A3xx.
Brilliant question and definitely not derailing the thread IMO but rather brilliantly adding to the quality of the thread! Thanks for the great questions.
Having said that I find that playing these little hands optimally can make a big difference over the course of a tourney. Whether I played it optimally or not is of course completely debateable.
Thanks for the reply Eon and yes, controlling the pot is definitely the salient point.
We obviously don't have much considering the board texture but we have also under represented our hand due to the scary board. If we check I probably would semi-reluctantly call a small bet as you mentioned but I feel there is a small amount of value in betting.
A lot of raggy jacks and possibly over pairs which think we have missed some kind of draw may call a small bet and the small bet protects us from a tough decision if we check and they pot. I decide to bet 1/4 of the pot with every intention of folding if we are reraised. We are called by a raggy jack and take the pot down.
On to the next hands...
Player
Action
Cards
SB
Small blind
markycash
Big blind
Your hole cards
· 8C
· 3S
· 2C
· 10D
UTG
Fold
CO
Call
BTN
Call
SB
Call
markycash
Check
Flop
· 9H
· JD
· 7C
SB
Check
markycash
Bet
CO
Call
BTN
Fold
SB
Call
Turn
· JH
SB
Check
markycash
Check
CO
Check
River
· QD
SB
Check
markycash
Bet
CO
Fold
SB
Call
markycash
Show
· 8C
· 3S
· 2C
· 10D
SB
Show
· 2D
· JS
· 4H
· 3C
markycash
Win high
Straight to the Queen
No qualifying low hand
Hand starting stack: 6,492
I do like to play a lot of small pots though but the intention is to 'go away' without much resistence or win a small pot. The flop is about as good as we can hope for and is Jd 2s Kc.
A bit like the last hand there are not a lot of turns that we will love, even if the board pairs we will be worrying about 2 pair making a higher boat. Therefore, to thin the field, see where we are in the hand and get some value we lead for 80 into the 160 pot and get 1 caller (the UTG player). The player who called has joined the table a few hands ago as is easily one of the top 5 players who will splash chips around so we are not worried about the call. If this player has a hand they almost always go for maximum pot value and I am extremely confident that if they had a higher set they would have potted it. The turn is the 5h.
This does not change much unless they had 55 which is pretty unlikely. The turn does however put all sorts of low draws out and there are still higher straight draws to worry about. It is however a turn which we feel we can still go for value from, especially versus this player so we pot it for 320, are called, and are now alomst certain out opponent is drawing.
The river is the 7s and while the low draws have got there, all straight draws have missed. There are 960 chips in the middle, so what do we do?
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
markycash
Small blind
20.00
20.00
6472.50
BB
Big blind
40.00
60.00
1077.50
Your hole cards
· 6c
· 2d
· 10c
· 2h
UTG
Call
40.00
100.00
1800.00
CO
Fold
BTN
Call
40.00
140.00
3655.00
markycash
Call
20.00
160.00
6452.50
BB
Check
Flop
· Jd
· 2s
· Kc
markycash
Bet
80.00
240.00
6372.50
BB
Fold
UTG
Call
80.00
320.00
1720.00
BTN
Fold
Turn
· 5h
markycash
Bet
320.00
640.00
6052.50
UTG
Call
320.00
960.00
1400.00
River
· 7s
markycash
What now?
I agree with Eon and Phantom. I therefore pot it and am flat called and our opponent has backdoored into the nut low. Chop chop.
Regarding letting it go if we are reraised...
Against this player I would be calling. I think the only hand this player realistically has that beats us is a377, but as played they 'shouldn't' have this. If they do then too bad I guess. I think a reraise would also be very heavily polarised to a nut low, possibly with or without a pair/2 pair.
If I intended to fold to the reraise I may take a different line on the river as we have a good amount of showdown value.
All in all pretty standard stuff.
I am hoping the hands will become even more interesting as we get deeper. I will also try and make the format different at points and maybe do some pauses before we take any action in suitable hands to get some opinions.
Thanks for the input guys!
I think we have a small run of trivial hands coming up, I will briefly details these if we do and pause at the next 'interesting spot'.
Hand 17: We get 488Q in the CO and fold.
Hand 18: We get 577J UTG+1 and fold.
Hand 19: We get 289Q UTG and fold.
Hand 20: We get 4789 in the BB. We get to see a missed flop and fold to action.
Hand 21: We get 369T rainbow in the SB and fold.
Hand 22: We get 229Q on the BTN and fold.
Hand 23: We get 2TTJ in the CO and fold.
Hand 24: We get 28TQ all diamonds UTG+1 and fold.
Hand 25: We get 378K double suited UTG and fold. As with earlier hands, this can look pretty to new players at OH8 but it is a very tricky hand to play and if there is no need to get involved then we don't.
Hand 26: We get 67TQ double suited in the BB and are miniraised. We flat call, see the flop and semi-connect. We call a flop minibet but then fold to pressure.
Hand 27: We get A577 double suited in the SB. We would play this but there is a limp and a pot raise by the time it gets to us and the A5 element of our hand would make this very difficult to play unless we flop huge. Calling pot raises we just won't hit often enough to make this profitable unless we are prepared to get very tricky post flop which at this stage there doesn't seem to be a need to do this.
We are on a difficult run and finding it hard to get involved! It is important if we are sitting with a decent stack (which we are) to stay patient here. It is fine to fold a few orbits now and again. Who knows we might even build a tight image we can capitalise on later when it really matters
Hand 28: We get 25TJ on the BTN and fold. Again, just no need.
Hand 29: We get 3479 off suit in the CO and fold.
Hand 30: We get JJ6Q in the hijack and fold.
Hand 31: We get 347Q UTG and fold. (Blinds still only 40-80 and we have a 6k+ stack).
Hand 32: we get involved and I will post that next...
Hand starting stack: 6,172
Situation: We have Ac Qc Kh 2h in the BB. UTG miniraises to 160 and everyone apart from the small blind calls. One of the callers has a stack of 1100 chips and there is a very strong argument for potting this here. There is one 8k stack who has us covered and a 5k stack who can wipe most of our stack out.
Sometimes I would pot this here but I do see merits in just flat calling. If the flop is horrible like JJ3 for example, we can just walk away. The flat call would under-rep our hand in a pot that is likely to see post flop action anyway. There is also a bit more control on the pot if we flat call and I don't think we have fold equity due to the shorty with their bounty to play for. Rightly or wrongly I just flat call.
The flop is 'tricky' and is 2c 5h Tc Which breaks our low draw but gives us the nut flush draw. I check and the fairly aggressive 8k stack pots it for 630, the 1100 stack shoves their last 900 odd chips, everyone else folds and action is on us. So as always, what would you do?
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
SB
Small blind
40.00
40.00
3710.00
markycash
Big blind
80.00
120.00
6092.50
Your hole cards
· Ac
· Qc
· Kh
· 2h
UTG
Raise
160.00
280.00
8410.00
Hijack
Call
160.00
440.00
4915.00
CO
Call
160.00
600.00
962.50
BTN
Call
160.00
760.00
2995.00
SB
Fold
markycash
Call
80.00
840.00
6012.50
Flop
· 2c
· 5h
· 10c
markycash
Check
UTG
Bet
630.00
1470.00
7780.00
Hijack
Fold
CO
All-in
962.50
2432.50
0.00
BTN
Fold
markycash
??
??
??
??
I don't know about 'right' and 'wrong' ways to play this hand. I guess there must be a 'most optimal' way but I think the points made by everyone have their own merits.
Would the pot raise preflop have been better?
Possibly, there are worse hands to inflate the pot with and there is a lot of potential equity to gain.
Is the flat call preflop okay?
Yes, I think so. It keeps more control on things, disguises our hand a little and keeps a lot of potential 'customers' in the hand and our hand plays great post flop.
Is the fold fine on the flop?
Again, this has merits. The pot opener on the flop has us covered, we may well miss the turn and be chucking chips away.
****************************
In the end I went with another option which I thought was fine and called.
A couple of things that tipped the scales for me...
(a) As bbMike states, the pot opener on the flop has bet an amount that means the betting will not be re-opened, even although the shorty has shoved. This is a mistake on their part if he wants to isolate the shorty. They could have made it slightly smaller so that if shorty shoves (which you would expect them to do widely) they could then repot it and put me to a decision for my stack.
(b) The low isn't out yet so we aren't drawing to half of the pot (yet) and have scoop potential.
(c) The part of the pot we are drawing to is the part which will take the bounty.
(d) There are a lot of turns which could scare the initial flop potter and they may also be worrying about the damage we can do to them so there is every possibility we get to see a full board.
As it played out we hit the flush on the turn which is great. However, the board paired and we were OOP so I felt I had to check, a flopped set could definitely be in our opponents flop potting range. If he bets I would have to go with my gut, bet sizing reads and any specific reads but they check behind. The river is the same deal... We are OOP and a low card falls so I feel the need to check because...
(a) I am now calling a bet due to his check behind on the turn (I don't think he was giving me a free draw to the low if he had a boat). Therefore I don't want to be in a tricky spot of calling off my entire stack if he repots a rivered low.
(b) I should have the high and be collecting the bounty if either my counterfeited low or my opponents low beats the all in player.
Thanks again for the input folks, I will go dig the next hand(s) out.
Results pasted below...
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
SB
Small blind
40.00
40.00
3710.00
markycash
Big blind
80.00
120.00
6092.50
Your hole cards
· Ac
· Qc
· Kh
· 2h
UTG
Raise
160.00
280.00
8410.00
Hijack
Call
160.00
440.00
4915.00
CO
Call
160.00
600.00
962.50
BTN
Call
160.00
760.00
2995.00
SB
Fold
markycash
Call
80.00
840.00
6012.50
Flop
· 2c
· 5h
· 10c
markycash
Check
UTG
Bet
630.00
1470.00
7780.00
Hijack
Fold
CO
All-in
962.50
2432.50
0.00
BTN
Fold
markycash
Call
962.50
3395.00
5050.00
UTG
Call
332.50
3727.50
7447.50
Turn
· 5c
markycash
Check
UTG
Check
River
· 8c
markycash
Check
UTG
Check
CO
Show
· Ad
· 4c
· 8s
· 10d
markycash
Show
· Ac
· Qc
· Kh
· 2h
UTG
Muck
· Ks
· 4d
· 6s
· 3d
markycash
Win high
Flush to the Ace
1863.75
6913.75
CO