'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - 18th 'interesting spot' (hand 109) -

eon1961

Think I'm folding here Mark,unless I'm on the pop like last night

HENDRIK62

I've decided after tonight that, the secret is to give up thinking about strategy and just mash buttons, works for everyone else....

Essexphil

Mostly calling there.

Surprised at the amount of folds on this thread-PLO8 seems a lot like NLH-in 2003...

ajmilton

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - 11th 'interesting spot' (hand 77), What to do with the kings in PLO8, squeeze, fold or limp?:

I've decided after tonight that, the secret is to give up thinking about strategy and just mash buttons, works for everyone else....
Posted by HENDRIK62

Great idea hendo lad,

we should all try it.

Then, instead of posting HH,

we can post, .....

I mashed and lost. or

I mashed and won ...It's the future.

Regards Alan (plo8 masher) 

markycash

The button mashing cynics will be happy to know I folded

I had to throw one in that I didn't do anything with to keep you all on your toes.

I am surprised it did not divide opinion a little more than it did. I don't think it would be the most ridiculous thing to make some sort of play here but with our roughly 25bb stack it seems a tad awkward.

Will post the next hands in the morning.

As always, many thanks for everyone giving their take on the hands!

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		150.00	150.00	5517.84
BB	Big blind		300.00	450.00	12175.02
	Your hole cards	·         Ks ·         7d ·         Kd ·         5c
UTG	Call		300.00	750.00	7360.54
Hijack	Fold
markycash	Fold

markycash

Hand 78: 3478 in the hijack, we fold.

Hand 79: I will post after this...

markycash

Hand: 79

Hand starting stack: 8,933

Situation: We are in the BB with Th 4d 5d 2s and as usual the active/aggro player has miniraised to 600 from UTG, they have 10,772 chips. The SB with 6900 chips also calls, we flick in the 300 chips and the flop is 8h Qd 3d.

SB checks, we check and active/aggro player C-bets 600 into the 1800 pot, the SB folds and action is on us.

We have the 3rd best possible low draw and a 5 high flush draw. 

So what do we do? What is the plan?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		150.00	150.00	6910.54
markycash	Big blind		300.00	450.00	8633.76
	Your hole cards	·         10h ·         4d ·         5d ·         2s
UTG	Raise		600.00	1050.00	10172.85
CO	Fold
BTN	Fold
SB	Call		450.00	1500.00	6460.54
markycash	Call		300.00	1800.00	8333.76
Flop
		·         8h ·         Qd ·         3d
SB	Check
markycash	Check
UTG	Bet		600.00	2400.00	9572.85
SB	Fold
markycash	?

eon1961

I think aggro player needs standing up to now and I would pot it & expect a fold.

You have a flush draw & average low draw & now the blinds are going to decimate you if you don't start making moves.

I just believe it's time to change gear & try to become the new table captain.

Phantom66

Given we know mr aggro is c-betting wide here I think we can carry on.

As Eon says, the blinds are going up and we will need to take uncontested pots without a hand to keep a playable stack.

Is this the right spot? Well we do have draws, not the nuts at either end which is a worry (unless an A hits) if our opponent continues. It is also more likely than not that our opponent doesnt have much of a hand or good draws.

Honeslty though I think it is one fo those hands that it is easier to talk myself into the aggro option sat on a forum thread than I would be prone to do in game.

I dont like calling as much because if we miss it is harder to bluff the turn OOP and if we fold we are letting the aggro player get the better of us.

I think we shoul be getting aggro though and better to do it with probable outs. Pot it and mini fist pump the opponents fold (I hope).

UrABawBag2

im inclined  to just  call  here  hopeing  we hit  a  nice  turn  card, aggro  player  is going  to hang  himself  eventually,          having  said  that  aggro player  could  have a playable hand here a2 xx  with lower  dims but  higher  than  yours. if low turn card and  a diamond. we will have no idea were  we are in  the  hand   im  actually  talking  myself into a fold after  the  flop now an  wait  for  a better  spot.

Essexphil

Fascinating hand, with no obvious "right" answer.

The big advantage of potting is that we may well induce a fold. Has villain shown that he knows where the fold button is? If not, cannot pot here. We have Queen high, a near nut low flush draw for the high and a near nut high for the low. On a good day, we're chopping, On a lot of bad days we are hoping to hit to chop.

I'm calling and reassessing after next card, but can understand why potting or folding would work for many.

pomfrittes

  It,s a call from me , the raise is very much player dependent, also by raising we leave ourselves open to mr. Aggro putting us all in when we really want to see the turn  card as cheap as possible.

markycash

@eon "I think aggro player needs standing up to now and I would pot it & expect a fold.

You have a flush draw & average low draw & now the blinds are going to decimate you if you don't start making moves.

I just believe it's time to change gear & try to become the new table captain."

This certainly crossed my mind! I chose a different line as when I do what you suggested I prefer some sort of 'in place' high orientation to my hand, even like middle pair, so that if our opponent gets it in with us on a big draws and bricks land on the turn and river we still might snag the pot.

I also feel that on the flop we haven't quite defined their hand yet. If we flat call we get to see what the turn brings and how they react to it and maybe have a more crisp read on what they are up to.

I definitely see the merits in your line and there are obviously several ways to play the hand so your way may well be the best. It is definitely a tricky spot with a lot of options.

@Phanton - Good point about it being more difficult to bluff OOP if we flat. Our ability to take the pot away on at least some occasions when we miss is a big consideration as to whether we flat call or not.

@Mick - Yes a tricky one this. I definitely feel versus our opponents range that if we hit both ends of our draw that at least 1 end is likely to be good. I would be looking for decent value in that scenario and if we run into a nut-nut type hand then too bad.

@Phil - Completely agree, definitely more than 1 way to go about this and merits in each line to be taken. Our opponent has shown they can fold. I think they are potentially calling though with either nut draw on its own. Their fold range is probably filled with mostly complete air.

@Pom - Yes, I feel we have a bit of value in our hand. It is very tricky though and we are OOP.

In the end I went for the flat call.

I just thought that we had a decent hand to continue with that we may extract a good few chips with if we hit. I also wanted a bit more info via the betting and stacks were a little awkward IMO for just potentially getting it all in. 

One key thing to the flat is that I was prepared to make plays if we missed. If we are solely calling to hit both ends it would be hard to make the flat call profitable. To be honest I am not sure if I gave enough thought at the time to the fact being OOP might make this more difficult.

Anyways I kept it small ball and flatted. The turn was a brick but our opponent checks behind (indicating to me that this particular player probably has 1 draw at most). The river gives us a low and flush. My read is that our opponent may have some sort of low or flush but unlikely both so I bet 3/4 pot to try and chase him out the pot. He duly folds and we take a small pot down.

Not sure if this was the most optimal line to take. Definitely more than 1 way to play this hand.

Thanks for all the replies, results below...

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		150.00	150.00	6910.54
markycash	Big blind		300.00	450.00	8633.76
	Your hole cards	·         10h ·         4d ·         5d ·         2s
UTG	Raise		600.00	1050.00	10172.85
CO	Fold
BTN	Fold
SB	Call		450.00	1500.00	6460.54
markycash	Call		300.00	1800.00	8333.76
Flop
		·         8h ·         Qd ·         3d
SB	Check
markycash	Check
UTG	Bet		600.00	2400.00	9572.85
SB	Fold
markycash	Call		600.00	3000.00	7733.76
Turn
		·         Kh
markycash	Check
UTG	Check
River
		·         7d
markycash	Bet		2250.00	5250.00	5483.76
UTG	Fold
markycash	Muck
markycash	Win		3000.00		8483.76
markycash	Return		2250.00	0.00	10733.76

markycash

Hand 80: We get QK46 in the SB, it is unraised with 1 limper so we flick the 150 in. Flop is K7J and limper pot bets, we fold.

Hand 81: 33TJ on the BTN, we fold.

Hand 82: We get A348 in the cut off, there is 1 limper, we limp along, miss everything and fold.

Hand 83: TT56 UTG, we fold.

Hand 84: We get 27KK in the BB and blinds are now 200-400. A big stack bets 1200 preflop. We decide to call and see a flop with the intention of making some sort of play on some occasion when we miss and opponent c-bets a T9Qdd flop. I think about making a play but don't want to reraise into some sort of straight that is never folding so I just fold.

Hand 85: We get 4589 in the SB, there are limpers, we limp along but the BB makes a stand and bets full pot, we fold.

Hand 86: 24JQ on the BTN, we fold.

Hand 87: We get AJK2 in the cut off. I limp and keep it small ball, we get an awkward board but keeping it all small we split 3 way and add 600 chips to our stack.

Hand 88: A48T rainbow UTG, we just decide to fold. Blinds are now 300-600.

Hand 89: we play...

markycash

Hand: 89

Hand starting stack: 9,133

Blinds: 200/400 (I said we moved to 300/600 but I think each page of 10 hand results is in reverse order to the order I am posting. I will sort this going forward).

Situation: We are in the BB with 6h Th 3c Ts (a hand we obviously wouldn't be playing ordinarily but are in the BB). The BTN (Big stack with 19,400) and the SB (7790 in chps) both limp and we check, seeing a flop of Td 8h Qd. I lead for 400 on the flop with middle set to see how the players react, both flat call and the turn is the 8c and we have made our boat. I lead for 1200 (1/2 pot) on the turn, big stack folds but the 7790 stack reraises to 6k. We have no huge reads on this player.

So as always... What do we do?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		200.00	200.00	7590.81
markycash	Big blind		400.00	600.00	8733.76
	Your hole cards	·         6 ·         10 ·         3 ·         10
UTG	Fold
CO	Fold
BTN	Call		400.00	1000.00	19007.18
SB	Call		200.00	1200.00	7390.81
markycash	Check
Flop
		·         10 ·         8 ·         Q
SB	Check
markycash	Bet		400.00	1600.00	8333.76
BTN	Call		400.00	2000.00	18607.18
SB	Call		400.00	2400.00	6990.81
Turn
		·         8
SB	Check
markycash	Bet		1200.00	3600.00	7133.76
BTN	Fold
SB	Raise		6000.00	9600.00	990.81
markycash	???

eon1961

The lots going in here.If we lose to a better boat or quads its just one of those things just smile & move on.

Essexphil

Reshove all-in. Every time. There are only 2 hands that beat you (88/QQ), whereas there are lots of hands that you crush (smaller boats/str8/bluffs). A scared J9 and 8Q are turning up a lot there, so wouldn't flat to keep him in.

Phantom66

Reshove they only have 990 behind so calling serves no purpose.

If they have it so be it.

As well as 8Q, J9 I think AKJ8 wouldn't surprise me either and those combinations are much more likely than 88 which should put most players off from flicking in half a blind and QQ which I would have thought likely to be more active on the flop.

Have to factor in the small possibility of a bluff.

Unless you had solid notes that they only ever C/R full pot the absolute nuts then I can't see a fold here.

pomfrittes

   Reshove all day long and twice on Sundays.

Enut

Fold he could have QQ or 88................................Nah, only joking, shove, obv.

HENDRIK62

no one has mentioned the draw to a str8 flush, ffs you're all maniacs.....

UrABawBag2

pretty  much all above  posts  cover my  thoughts  reckon he  has  hit  set  of  8s.  

whack!!!!   em  in.

markycash

Well I thought this was a clear fold and got out of there!

Joking of course I snap reshoved as everyone suggested. They could have 88 or QQ but their range if filled with loads of stuff we beat. 

We now have 17k+ and the chips to do some damage in this.

Have a really busy day today so I will update with the next hand later.

Thanks for all the replies folks!

Results below...

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		200.00	200.00	7590.81
markycash	Big blind		400.00	600.00	8733.76
	Your hole cards	·         6 ·         10 ·         3 ·         10
UTG	Fold
CO	Fold
BTN	Call		400.00	1000.00	19007.18
SB	Call		200.00	1200.00	7390.81
markycash	Check
Flop
		·         10 ·         8 ·         Q
SB	Check
markycash	Bet		400.00	1600.00	8333.76
BTN	Call		400.00	2000.00	18607.18
SB	Call		400.00	2400.00	6990.81
Turn
		·         8
SB	Check
markycash	Bet		1200.00	3600.00	7133.76
BTN	Fold
SB	Raise		6000.00	9600.00	990.81
markycash	All-in		7133.76	16733.76	0.00
SB	All-in		990.81	17724.57	0.00
markycash	Unmatched bet		1342.95	16381.62	1342.95
SB	Show	·         8 ·         Q ·         10 ·         9
markycash	Show	·         6 ·         10 ·         3 ·         10
River
		·         2
markycash	Win high	Full House, 10s and 8s	16381.62		17724.57

markycash

Hand 90: We get 69TK in the SB and fold.

Hand 91: 34JQ on the BTN, we fold.

Hand 92: 689k in the cut off, we fold.

Hand 93:We get 238Q in the BB. Mr aggro/active does his miniopen thing, 1 caller and we also call but completely miss the flop. Everyone checks on the flop and turn so we take a stab at the pot on the river with complete air and are called by 2 pair. -2300 chips but we still have around 14.5k.

Hand 94: 346K in the SB, we chop with Mr aggro/active in the BB.

Hand 95: 48JQ on the BTN, we fold.

Hand 96: 347K in the cut off, we fold.

Hand 97: 27JQ in the BB, Mr aggro/active does the 'miniopen with anything' thing, 1 caller, we call too and flop trip Q's. We bet and are called by the other player (Mr aggro/active folds) but turn the nut boat which puts a low draw out on the board. We bet big, are called and river makes the low. We pot it to try and chase them out but our opponent reraises all in with the low and we chop it. 

Hand 98: I will detail after this post..

markycash

Hand: 98

Hand starting stack: 15.8k 

Blinds: 200/400

Situation: I thought this spot was interesting as it is a spot that ploppers face often. We have 8c 4s 3c 5d in the SB, our aggro/active player is in the BB (with 13.1k) and action has folded to us. We are OOP with a marginal hand. It is a hand that could trip the BB player up though and it does have some low orientation. The flop is excellent for us 2c 9s As giving us a big wheel draw. We put a controlling bet of 476 in on the flop, are snap called and see a Jh on the turn.

So what do we do now? We still have our nice draw but there is only 1 card to come and we have nothing at the moment. Can we continue firing? Do we check hoping for a cheap river card? Check/call if he bets? Do we pot it and try and take it down?

What is the plan and why?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
markycash	Small blind		200.00	200.00	15424.57
BB	Big blind		400.00	600.00	12772.85
	Your hole cards	·         Qc ·         4s ·         3c ·         5d
CO	Fold
BTN	Fold
markycash	Call		200.00	800.00	15224.57
BB	Check
Flop
		·         2c ·         9s ·         As
markycash	Bet		476.00	1276.00	14748.57
BB	Call		476.00	1752.00	12296.85
Turn
		·         Jh
markycash	What now?		...	...	...

eon1961

Check, call for pot control.Could have similar hands but would be wary of flush draw.

pomfrittes

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - 14th 'interesting spot' (hand 94):

Hand: 98 Hand starting stack: 15.8k  Blinds: 200/400 Situation: I thought this spot was interesting as it is a spot that ploppers face often. We have 8c 4s 3c 5d  in the SB, our aggro/active player is in the BB (with 13.1k) and action has folded to us. We are OOP with a marginal hand. It is a hand that could trip the BB player up though and it does have some low orientation. The flop is excellent for us 2c 9s As  giving us a big wheel draw. We put a controlling bet of 476 in on the flop, are snap called and see a Jh on the turn. So what do we do now? We still have our nice draw but there is only 1 card to come and we have nothing at the moment. Can we continue firing? Do we check hoping for a cheap river card? Check/call if he bets? Do we pot it and try and take it down? What is the plan and why? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance markycash Small blind   200.00 200.00 15424.57 BB Big blind   400.00 600.00 12772.85   Your hole cards ·          Qc ·          4s ·          3c ·          5d       CO Fold         BTN Fold         markycash Call   200.00 800.00 15224.57 BB Check         Flop     ·          2c ·          9s ·          As       markycash Bet   476.00 1276.00 14748.57 BB Call   476.00 1752.00 12296.85 Turn     ·          Jh       markycash What now?   ... ... ...
Posted by markycash

   Interesting spot this Mark, Im guessing we are close to the FT here as we are only 4 handed ? In game I would probably be betting out here, say 5 or 600, due to the fact villain just called our flop bet. If he was strong he ,being aggro would have reraised. So put the feeler bet out hoping to get another call then pot any river.

markycash

Cheers for the replies eon and pom!

I think we are closing in on the FT pom.

I did decide to maintain the line we had been taking for several reasons...

(a) If we check then I think we give up control of the pot and our opponent very often throws the pot bet out there. A pot bet which we will probably be calling due to the wheel outs that we have.

(b) I think if we maintain our line and keep control of things we can make a credible bluff on the river if we miss.

I bet 555 on the turn and the river gave us our low but not the wheel. I maintained the steady line with a 1000 bet on the river as I was a little concerned about having no high to speak of. It turns out we had been quartering but the river meant we were now quartered. Was no big deal though as we had kept pretty tight control of the pot size.

Result below...

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
markycash	Small blind		200.00	200.00	15424.57
BB	Big blind		400.00	600.00	12772.85
	Your hole cards	·         Qc ·         4s ·         3c ·         5d
CO	Fold
BTN	Fold
markycash	Call		200.00	800.00	15224.57
BB	Check
Flop
		·         2c ·         9s ·         As
markycash	Bet		476.00	1276.00	14748.57
BB	Call		476.00	1752.00	12296.85
Turn
		·         Jh
markycash	Bet		555.00	2307.00	14193.57
BB	Call		555.00	2862.00	11741.85
River
		·         7d
markycash	Bet		1000.00	3862.00	13193.57
BB	Call		1000.00	4862.00	10741.85
markycash	Show	·         Qc ·         4s ·         3c ·         5d
BB	Show	·         3d ·         4h ·         8c ·         7h
BB	Win high	Pair of 7s	2431.00		13172.85
markycash	Win low	7-low	1215.50		14409.07
BB	Win low	7-low	1215.50		14388.35

markycash

Hand 95: 6TJQ on the BTN, we fold.

Hand 96: 334T in the cut off, we fold.

Hand 97: A5TJ in the BB, we get a walk (might be our first walk although not sure we wanted it lol).

Hand 98: 477J in the SB, we fold.

Hand 99: 89JQ on the BTN, we fold. There is debate about the strength of these types on hands but in this spot I am not interested.

Hand 100: 5TJJ in the cut off, we fold.

Hand 101: I will post next...

markycash

Hand: 101

Hand starting stack: 14.4k

Blind level: 300/600

Situation: A familiar spot, we are in the BB and our active/aggro player has miniraise opened (they have 16.7k). We have Ah Td 3h 8h and the BTN with 16.9k chips has come along too creating a 3900 chip pot preflop. The flop is 5c 9h Th giving us the nut flush draw, a backdoor low draw and top pair with top kicker. It all sounds good but we have 1 pair and are OOP so we check, both players check behind, and we see a turn card of 4c. Our hand is still 1 pair but we have a low draw now to go with the nut flush draw. 

As always then, what is the play? Are we checking again? Do we start betting? If so, how much? What if we are reraised? etc

What is the plan, what would you do?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		300.00	300.00	10107.18
markycash	Big blind		600.00	900.00	13809.07
	Your hole cards	·         Ah ·         10d ·         3h ·         8h
UTG	Raise		1200.00	2100.00	15588.35
BTN	Call		1200.00	3300.00	15605.41
SB	Fold
markycash	Call		600.00	3900.00	13209.07
Flop
		·         5c ·         9h ·         10h
markycash	Check
UTG	Check
BTN	Check
Turn
		·         4c
markycash	What now?