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@eon - Yes, agreed, we don't want to be getting stacks in on the river with a paired board when we have only invested a relatively small portion of our stack so far.
If I did lead (I will reveal all after this post) I don't think it would be a raise/call situation unless I had a very very strong read that the opponent was trying to pull some sort of dastardly deed.
Likewise for check/calling. As you pointed out, a lot of these things are very situation and opponent specific. If we check and opponent throws the pot at it then they are representing a boat. It would just be down to whether I believed them or not, as to whether I would check/call or check/fold.
But yes, thoroughly agree, this certainly should not be a spot where we go broke on the river.
@Mick - There is definitely a case to be made for leading out for value on the river as you suggest. I would probably be folding to a reraise though if I done this (which I think you are suggesting you would also do). I chose a different line which I will give my take on after this post.
@eon - "We post on here what we should do but in the heat of the moment we all play hands different. It's all very easy in retrospect but in actual game play its always player dependent."
Yes, it is all very well posting on here about optimal lines to take etc but can be completely different in the heat of the moment and as you say is very player dependent. I would say though, that considering the optimal lines to take here, and tearing hands apart like this, can definitely help us get it correct 'in the heat of the moment' more often than we might otherwise do.
@Enut - "Good point, maybe there's a case for giving two answers, one is your first 'snap' decision....the one you would make in live play with the clock clicking down, the second being your considered opinion of the optimum play. They could of course be the same."
As alluded to above, for me at least, one of the major goals of discussing hands like this is to get the line taken in both situations to be one and the same. That may not be realistic 100% of the time but I definitely think we can get the 'heat of the moment decisions' to reflect our 'considered decisions' much more often via discussions like this.
@safc - "I would bet 20p at the bookies at 4/1 that you checked he raised and you split pot . Then again its evens that you raise and take the pot? no i will stick with the 4/1 shot i need the quid".
I will reveal all after this
I went into check/'very likely calling' mode.
The reason I personally went for this line was as follows...
I think our hand is utterly polarised and effectively face up here. We have bet out, OOP, for the pot on both the flop and turn. I don't think our opponent has a straight here, they have shown a lot of aggression and I feel they would just have smashed the pot at us if they had broadway. There were no flush draws so we know our opponent was not chasing a flush, so what does that leave for them to have as possible holdings?
I think versus an average player we run into a flopped set which has turned into a boat so often in this spot that check/folding would be an option (obviously depending on bet and stack sizes etc). The opponent we are facing though has shown a lot of aggression at times and it is 'possible' they may even have reraised with a flopped set. I though a lot of our opponents range would be made up of 2 pair combos which possibly also involve some sort of draw to the straight which we already have. With that being the read...
One 'saving grace' of the paired board was that it was the 7 which paired and that both 7's ran out on the turn and river. If the paired board on the river was either the K, T or J then we would have a lot more to worry about IMO as many of the 2 pair combos were now boats. We do not need to give our opponent credit for the 7 here though IMO given the way the hand has played. I thought a lot of their 2 pair combos were now looking rather shabby and a river lead would simply result in them folding and giving us no value. The river lead did not then look like offering any value and if they did actually have a set and got there then we would be left with a tricky decision if we are reraised.
I therefore checked with the hope our opponent would bet out with some sort of 2 pair combo which they thought had no showdown value and try to represent a boat. Especially due to the reason mentioned that our hand looks pretty polarised towards having broadway and we have shown we 'do not like' the paired river by checking.
Our opponent did not take the bait sadly and checked behind. I think the decision to check and try to induce a bet was correct though as our opponent shows a hand with no showdown value which they were probably folding to any continued action from us.
They had 36TQ double suited and had flopped bottom pair with an open ended straight draw.
Results below...
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
markycash
Small blind
50.00
50.00
6908.75
BB
Big blind
100.00
150.00
14997.50
Your hole cards
· 8c
· As
· Qc
· 6c
UTG
Fold
CO
Call
100.00
250.00
11325.02
BTN
Fold
markycash
Call
50.00
300.00
6858.75
BB
Check
Flop
· Kh
· 10s
· Jd
markycash
Bet
300.00
600.00
6558.75
BB
Call
300.00
900.00
14697.50
CO
Fold
Turn
· 7c
markycash
Bet
900.00
1800.00
5658.75
BB
Call
900.00
2700.00
13797.50
River
· 7h
markycash
Check
BB
Check
markycash
Show
· 8c
· As
· Qc
· 6c
BB
Muck
· 10d
· Qd
· 3s
· 6s
markycash
Win high
Straight to the Ace
2700.00
8358.75
Hand 50: We limp with 2336 from the cut off position and our active/aggro player from hand 48 limps the BTN. We flop a set and 2nd low on a A34 flop, the turn pairs and we get it all in but chop the pot as our opponent had flopped a wheel after limping 25TQ.
Hand 51: We get 449k UTG and fold.
Hand 52: Blinds up to 75/150. We are in the BB with A6TJ, our active/aggro player pots it and the BTN calls, we fold.
Hand 53: We are in the SB with K9T3 and call a miniopen as there is a <4 BB stack with a bounty to go after and we are 4 handed so have some implied odds. We flop '3 pair' on a flush draw/straight draw type board and control the pot, are ahead, but get rivered. We lose 6 BB's.
Hand 54: We get 46TJ on the BTN and fold.
Hand 55: We get 36JK in the CO and fold.
Hand 56: We get 56TJ double suited UTG and fold.
Hand 57: We play and it is a messy one lol. Will post it after this.
Hand starting stack: 7,383
Situation: We have 5d 7d 5h 8h in the BB at 75/150 level. Our same active/aggro player miniraises from UTG and everyone calls, including a 6 BB stack (everyone has decided to go bounty hunting). With a very tricky hand we decide to flick the extra 150 into the pot which is now 1500 chips. The shorty now has 4 BB's behind and we see a flop of Tc 2c 5s so we have middle set, no flush draw, and the nut worst low draw.
On the flop the UTG player checks, we check and then our active/aggro player bets 600, which we are obviously not surprised about. Matters are complicated when a 4k stack pot bets it to 3300. Everyone else folds (including the 4BB shorty) and action is on us with the active/aggro player still to act behind us.
We dont have any huge reads on the 4k stack as far as I can remember.
So as always, what do we do?
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
SB
Small blind
75.00
75.00
764.91
markycash
Big blind
150.00
225.00
7233.75
Your hole cards
· 5d
· 7d
· 5h
· 8h
UTG
Raise
300.00
525.00
14267.58
CO
Call
300.00
825.00
3968.75
BTN
Call
300.00
1125.00
11500.02
SB
Call
225.00
1350.00
539.91
markycash
Call
150.00
1500.00
7083.75
Flop
· 10c
· 2c
· 5s
SB
Check
markycash
Check
UTG
Bet
600.00
2100.00
13667.58
CO
Raise
3300.00
5400.00
668.75
BTN
Fold
SB
Fold
markycash
What now?
...
...
...
On the flop we have 300 in the pot (Still not much, granted, and certainly room to fold)
I'm guessing that you either called or even reraised all in to try and get rid of the aggro player and your middle set improves or at the very least gets 1/2 the pot.
Me? I'd like to think I would get away from this but I doubt it.
Some mixed opinions.
One which I find very interesting is this...
@eon "The fact you called with a poor starting hand puts you in this spot,I would have folded pre & would also fold now,its just not worth going with."
In a DYM I couldn't argue the flip side of that coin. If we had an average stack in a DYM then it is just a fold, all day long. I personally feel that MTT's are very different. Sometimes I am very guilty of taking my MTT head into DYM's but in MTT's I am happy to dip my toes in the water.
Do we really want to avoid all difficult spots or do we want to be involved in lots of tricky situations were we may be able to push any edge? When we add in the fact that it is a BH, and that if we show up in certain spots with marginal holdings then we get paid a lot more when we have premium hands, I don't mind getting into a few awkward situations in MTT's.
For me I was considering what range we assign the other players and what odds are we roughly getting.
One thing I will state right off the bat is that if the player who pots it to 3,300 has a stack similar to ours, I would fold, basically if the villains stacks are swapped then we are out of there.
As it is...
The active/aggro player UTG miniraised preflop, which he has done at least every other pot. Their bet on the flop is not overly large for them and looks more like a probing and controlling bet to me which is aimed at getting the shorty all in. If we assign him ANY low orientation to his hand then this almost certainly rules out TT unless his other 2 cards just happened to be TT. I also feel he would size his bet much bigger if he was very strong to try and chase everyone out the pot and isolate the bounty so I really am not giving him much credit for having a hand that can (a) call a massive bet, and that (b) crushes us.
The 3300 stack is a different matter. We don't have any huge reads on them, however the same applies to them as our original opener... Are we really worried about TT when the player called a raise preflop (again assuming there is any low orientation to their hand it seems convenient that their other 2 cards would be precisely TT).
So while we accept players may have low/flush draws, we are assuming that our set is good, at this point at least. Everyone else is out of the pot so it is only these 2 players to think about.
So lets consider the numbers. If our reads are correct and we can 3bet jam to isolate the 4k stack here then we are putting in 3968 chips to win the 6068 chips which will be in the pot. So we are getting 1.53 to 1 odds. Even if we assign our opponent both nut draws with a hand like Ac3c8d8s, we would be 26.46% to scoop, 65.12% to win the high and have about 46% equity in the pot if my numbers are correct making the call profitable. Now they could have the wrap straight/nut flush and wheel draws but are we really giving them credit for the world? Even in this scenario we are 25.73% to scoop, 49.76% to win the high and have about 38% equity making it fractionally okay to go with this given the odds. If we assign the player a very strong hand without clubs which is entirely possible, such as A3KK, then suddenly we are 33.90% to scoop, 74.02% to win the high and have about 55% equity making this an easy call. A hand like A3KK without clubs is surely in their range to do this with?
P.S. I am not a cash game player or someone who sits and considers the maths in just that much detail and will normally go with my rough impression of the odds so my bad if any of my numbers are off. I just wanted to see if the action was justified or not given the weighting towards a fold in the opinions expressed.
When we include the fact the the 4k stack could be making a play a whole lot lighter (unlikely but possible) I decided this spot was okay to 3bet isolate the 4k stack with, especially when we consider that there are also bounties to be won too.
I therefore potted it up, big stack snap folded and we get it in with the 4k stack who has Ac 4c 6s Qd. They hit their low, our high holds and we chop the pot.
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
SB
Small blind
75.00
75.00
764.91
markycash
Big blind
150.00
225.00
7233.75
Your hole cards
· 5d
· 7d
· 5h
· 8h
UTG
Raise
300.00
525.00
14267.58
CO
Call
300.00
825.00
3968.75
BTN
Call
300.00
1125.00
11500.02
SB
Call
225.00
1350.00
539.91
markycash
Call
150.00
1500.00
7083.75
Flop
· 10c
· 2c
· 5s
SB
Check
markycash
Check
UTG
Bet
600.00
2100.00
13667.58
CO
Raise
3300.00
5400.00
668.75
BTN
Fold
SB
Fold
markycash
All-in
7083.75
12483.75
0.00
UTG
Fold
CO
All-in
668.75
13152.50
0.00
markycash
Unmatched bet
3115.00
10037.50
3115.00
markycash
Show
· 5d
· 7d
· 5h
· 8h
CO
Show
· 6s
· 4c
· Ac
· Qd
Turn
· 8d
River
· Jh
markycash
Win high
Three 5s
5018.76
8133.76
CO
Win low
8-low
5018.74
5018.74
Hand 58: We get to see the flop for free from the BB with 367Q, we miss, someone bets, we fold.
Hand 59: We get 269Q on the BTN and fold.
Hand 60: We get 882J in the cut off and fold.
Hand 61: We limp A2TQ from UTG, pick up a low draw, minibet the flop, hit our low, but chop the pot.
Hand 62: We get 577J in the BB and fold to action.
Hand 63: We get A3JK in the SB, there is a raise pre, we call and turn the nut low but our active/aggro player turn and rivers a weird boat and we chop the pot.
Hand 64:37QK on the BTN, we fold.
Hand 65: We get 367J in the cut off and fold.
Hand 66: 22JK in the hijack, we fold.
Hand 67: We get A27Q UTG and limp. We miss but minilead and the BB calls. Turn puts a flush out which we do not have, we bet half pot to see what reaction we get, opponent folds.
Hand 68: We get A46J in the BB. Active/aggro player mini raises preflop, we and 1 other player call, we brick the flop and fold to action.
Hand 69: We get 67J9 double suited in the SB. The entire table limps in so we flick the extra 100 in, miss the flop and fold to action.
Hand 70: QQ49 on the BTN, we fold.
Hand 71: We get A25T and limp, as does most of the table. We hit 2 pair on a A9T flop, bet half pot to thin the field and are called by 1 player. Scare cards on the turn and river but we check down and win a small pot.
Hand 72: We get 258J in the hijack and fold.
Hand 73: AJQ9 UTG, we fold.
Hand 74: We get 368T in the BB, it is 3 bet preflop and we fold.
Hand 75: We get 568T in the SB and fold to preflop action.
Hand 76: K789 on the BTN, we fold.
Hand 77: I will detail after this...
Hand starting stack: 8933 chips
Blind level: 150/300
Situation: Another fairly familiar spot for ploppers this one. We get Ks 7d Kd 5c in the cut off position, UTG limps for 300 (They are relatively active and have 7660 chips) and it then folds to us. The BB has 12k chips, the SB has around 5600 chips & the BTN to act behind us is the active/aggro player with 12k in chips.
So what exactly do we do with the KK with a poor low? Fold? Squeeze? Limp along with the others?
Player
Action
Cards
Amount
Pot
Balance
SB
Small blind
150.00
150.00
5517.84
BB
Big blind
300.00
450.00
12175.02
Your hole cards
· Ks
· 7d
· Kd
· 5c
UTG
Call
300.00
750.00
7360.54
Hijack
Fold
markycash
...
The BTN is the active/aggro player and has 12k in chips.
P.S. I may fold, call or raise here. I probably would do a version of all 3 at certain points. I may simply fold here and just be presenting the dilema or I may try and see the flop cheaply (hoping to be in position if the BB folds) or try and squeeze and pick up 'dead chips'.
All options are on the table.