'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - 18th 'interesting spot' (hand 109) -

UrABawBag2 · May 2017

bet half the pot doubt any 1 has a strong hand, more likely chasing low hands atm. cant really see you getting re raised either, more than likely get 1 caller, evaluate the river hopefully heart comes in for a scoop.

eon1961 · May 2017

Think I might be check calling for pot control

markycash · May 2017

Thanks for the replies folks.

As with many hands posted there is certainly more than 1 way to proceed and merits in the options posted.

I personally took the following line...

I bet around 1/4 of the pot (975) on the turn. My reasoning was that there is every chance we are already ahead but while could be scooping on the river but it may be an awkward river for betting. Therefore if we are getting any value from the hand then this may be the only opportunity. I also thought that if we rep small here then 2 possible scenarios will be likely on the river (a) we miss everything but can continue our line on the river hoping to take it down anyway and it may look more credible as we fired on the turn. Or (b) we have built the pot and hit and can look for more value, potentially against hands we are quartering.

Both players call us on the turn, the river gives us a wheel but no flush. I lead on river for just under half the pot and both players fold.

Results below...

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		300.00	300.00	10107.18
markycash	Big blind		600.00	900.00	13809.07
	Your hole cards	· Ah · 10d · 3h · 8h
UTG	Raise		1200.00	2100.00	15588.35
BTN	Call		1200.00	3300.00	15605.41
SB	Fold
markycash	Call		600.00	3900.00	13209.07
Flop
		· 5c · 9h · 10h
markycash	Check
UTG	Check
BTN	Check
Turn
		· 4c
markycash	Bet		975.00	4875.00	12234.07
UTG	Call		975.00	5850.00	14613.35
BTN	Call		975.00	6825.00	14630.41
River
		· 2s
markycash	Bet		2875.00	9700.00	9359.07
UTG	Fold
BTN	Fold
markycash	Muck
markycash	Win		6825.00		16184.07
markycash	Return		2875.00	0.00	19059.07

markycash · May 2017

Hand 102: We get 247Q in the SB. We would probably quite often limp in or do something here but there is a raise in front so we fold.

Hand 103: 256Q double suited on the BTN, we fold. These types of hands can be so dangerous. If we do anything preflop, the odds are that we hit some sort of draw on the flop... The quality of that draw just often plays poorly versus calling ranges at these stack depths though and it feels a bit needless.

Hand 104: A688 in the cut off, we fold. Even if we hit the 8, that means there is 1 low card out and every chance there will be a low pot, a low pot we wont be in great shape for with the A6 aspect of our hand.

Hand 105: 278k in the BB. Would be hard to do too much with this hand but we get a walk.

Hand 106: I will post next...

markycash · May 2017

Hand: 106

Hand starting stack: 19k

Blinds: 300/600

Situation: We are 4 handed. Stack sizes are... Us = 19k, SB = 16.1k, BB = 14.9k & the cut off player has 8.6k. I think we must be around the FT bubble. We have the BTN and 9s 6c 2c 3h. The UTG player player limps and action is on us.

Reads: The 'active/aggro player is in the SB. The limper is rather aptly... 'quite limpy' and we have no major reads on the other player.

So as always, what would you do here and why?
(As mentioned we are 4 handed, have the BTN, and the SB and BB are to act after us)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		300.00	300.00	15813.35
BB	Big blind		600.00	900.00	14330.41
	Your hole cards	· 9s · 6c · 2c · 3h
CO	Call		600.00	1500.00	8007.18
markycash	???

Phantom66 · May 2017

It's a hand I may try and steal with 4 handed from the button but our limper has put paid to that.

Generally I would fold, only 2 wheel cards and the 9 hand killer.

Situationally I might consider a limp, given that we have position and it is an easy hand to get away from if potted behind.

Have we got room to raise? Possibly, has the limper shown a tendency to limp/call or limp/fold to aggression? If it goes well and blinds fold then limper may fold (happy days). If limper calls we can we win big if we hit and take it down if they miss, especially if they appear to be hanging on for the FT bubble.

pomfrittes · May 2017

Agree with Phantom here, in that we are in a decent spot to steal this pot. Pot size bet would be 2700 (I think) which should get rid of the blinds, unless they are holding monsters and will cost limpy 25% of his stack to call, if his hand is good enough to call surely he would have raised instead of limping. If he does call, so be it, always in with a shot at his bounty without doing yourself irreparable damage.

Edit. Just checked and I misread your stack, thought you had 19k. Still potting it and hoping 3 folds.

markycash · May 2017

Won't comment on the hand until others get a chance but just to let pom know we do have 19k

pomfrittes · May 2017

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - 16th 'interesting spot' (hand 106) - 2369 on the BTN with 1 limp, on the bubble, any takers?:

Won't comment on the hand until others get a chance but just to let pom know we do have 19k
Posted by markycash

My bad, must be my age.

Essexphil · May 2017

Calling or folding for me

eon1961 · May 2017

want to see cheap flop,call

SkootaT · May 2017

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - Input from players of all levels is very welcome!:

General approach to these games : They are Bounty Hunter games so we are obviously trying to gather as many bounties as possible right? Well, no! While the bounties matter I personally feel the focus should be almost but not entirely taken away from the 'Bounty Hunting' aspect. The PLO8 format is less developed than NLHE and is more complex. There is therefore much more room for players to make errors so I feel it is beneficial to take an approach which looks to gather chips rather than take, at times needless risks, to snag a bounty.
Posted by markycash

I haven't read any specific hand to "critisize" but this stood out to me potentially an area to reflect on a bit more because this mentality seems wrong to me!

Equities run so so so close in NL08 its hard to have less than 35% preflop, and when a bounty is on the line thats pretty much all we need, for example:

In a £5.50 tournament with 2k starting stack we can equate a starting bounty (no added extra 25% onto the head) as:

2000*0.75 = 1500 chips of dead money in the pot

so for example UTG shoves 25 big blinds with an incredibly tight range of ONLY double suited AK23 (exageration to make a point)

we are in the BB with 26 big blinds at 100/50. Technically we are calling 2400 to win 2500 + 1500(bounty) + 2400 = 6400 chips

So if we have need to have > 37.5% equity to make a profitable chip ev call and obviously the ev of folding is -100 chips so in chip ev terms we should be calling with, drum roll please..... 90% of our range (according to pro poker tools)

obviously chip ev doesnt equate to EQ% and you probably dont want to call 90% of your hands here because of ICM and if we are getting it in with minimal edge all the time we wont beat rake but the point stands that you almost always always always want to go super wide for bounties in these formats where equities run close because most of the time when you pass up a spot like this then do the calculations to review after you will find out you need to have like an roi of like >60% to justifiy passing up the edge of the spot

.

I'm interested in what people on this thread have to say on this topic (hopefully I didn't make any math errors) because in my expereince people hunt bounties far too tight in especially for this format.

markycash · May 2017

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - Input from players of all levels is very welcome!:

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - Input from players of all levels is very welcome! : I haven't read any specific hand to "critisize" but this stood out to me potentially an area to reflect on a bit more because this mentality seems wrong to me! Equities run so so so close in NL08 its hard to have less than 35% preflop, and when a bounty is on the line thats pretty much all we need, for example: In a £5.50 tournament with 2k starting stack we can equate a starting bounty (no added extra 25% onto the head) as: 2000*0.75 = 1500 chips of dead money in the pot so for example UTG shoves 25 big blinds with an incredibly tight range of ONLY double suited AK23 (exageration to make a point) we are in the BB with 26 big blinds at 100/50. Technically we are calling 2400 to win 2500 + 1500(bounty) + 2400 = 6400 chips So if we have need to have /> 37.5% equity to make a profitable chip ev call and obviously the ev of folding is -100 chips so in chip ev terms we should be calling with, drum roll please..... 90% of our range (according to pro poker tools) obviously chip ev doesnt equate to EQ% and you probably dont want to call 90% of your hands here because of ICM and if we are getting it in with minimal edge all the time we wont beat rake but the point stands that you almost always always always want to go super wide for bounties in these formats where equities run close because most of the time when you pass up a spot like this then do the calculations to review after you will find out you need to have like an roi of like >60% to justifiy passing up the edge of the spot . I'm interested in what people on this thread have to say on this topic (hopefully I didn't make any math errors) because in my expereince people hunt bounties far too tight in especially for this format.
Posted by SkootaT

Some valid and interesting points.

Will grab some breakfast and then come back to this.

markycash · May 2017

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - Input from players of all levels is very welcome!:

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - Input from players of all levels is very welcome! : I haven't read any specific hand to "critisize" but this stood out to me potentially an area to reflect on a bit more because this mentality seems wrong to me! Equities run so so so close in NL08 its hard to have less than 35% preflop, and when a bounty is on the line thats pretty much all we need, for example: In a £5.50 tournament with 2k starting stack we can equate a starting bounty (no added extra 25% onto the head) as: 2000*0.75 = 1500 chips of dead money in the pot so for example UTG shoves 25 big blinds with an incredibly tight range of ONLY double suited AK23 (exageration to make a point) we are in the BB with 26 big blinds at 100/50. Technically we are calling 2400 to win 2500 + 1500(bounty) + 2400 = 6400 chips So if we have need to have /> 37.5% equity to make a profitable chip ev call and obviously the ev of folding is -100 chips so in chip ev terms we should be calling with, drum roll please..... 90% of our range (according to pro poker tools) obviously chip ev doesnt equate to EQ% and you probably dont want to call 90% of your hands here because of ICM and if we are getting it in with minimal edge all the time we wont beat rake but the point stands that you almost always always always want to go super wide for bounties in these formats where equities run close because most of the time when you pass up a spot like this then do the calculations to review after you will find out you need to have like an roi of like />60% to justifiy passing up the edge of the spot . I'm interested in what people on this thread have to say on this topic (hopefully I didn't make any math errors) because in my expereince people hunt bounties far too tight in especially for this format.
Posted by SkootaT

This is a big question to take on, especially as I have been running and playing sub-par for the last couple of weeks and confidence is not at its highest. I will give it a shot though!

I have not checked but do not doubt your figures. I just feel that taking an overly quantitative approach can often result in a myopic perspective that neglects many other critical factors. I am sure most people have heard the fable of the statistician who drowned in the pool of water because he relied upon the statistics showing the pool had an average depth of just 2".

Expanding upon this (and again going over points I am sure many people are familiar with). The 'least exploitable' and therefore supposedly 'best strategy' for Rock-Paper-Scissors is to be random. To determine a strategy for selecting each option an equal amount on the time, such as rolling a dice. However if an opponent is always selecting the 'rock' option then the optimal strategy is actually to be thoroughly exploitable and choose 'paper' every time. This is of course deemed to be using an 'exploitative strategy' as opposed to a 'game theory' strategy which I think is the essence of the quantitative approach you are advocating.

In my opinion this drives at the heart of where the major differences lay between NLHE and OH8. While there is certainly room for at least an element of exploitative strategies in NLHE, I feel there is less room for these 'exploitative strategies' in NLHE nowdays than there is in OH8. I would simply put this down to the level of 'errors' in each game. NLHE has evolved to a much higher level than OH8, there are just still so many more mistakes to exploit in OH8.

Even contrasting these approaches in the NLHE arena. I played a £95 VLV satellite a few weeks ago that awarded 5 x £435 tickets. My 4k starting stack was cut down to 2k early on with 30+ players remaining. Now if I played the 'correct' spots according to 'Game Theory' I would not have got a ticket, as from this point onwards I simply didn't get the cards. I never won a single chip at showdown from the time I had 2k chips until I had cashed some 2 hours later and won the £435 ticket. The bulk of my play was being involved in spots that I wasn't supposed to be in, and employing an exploitative strategy. Granted this is an exception to the rule in NLHE because it is a satty with circumstances which are very different from regular tourneys but, even in the more developed NLHE format, circumstances arose which meant that a regular 'Game Theory' strategy was not the optimal option. In OH8 the opportunities to deviate from a 'Game Theory' strategy, which overly focusses upon the quantitative aspect, and find a more optimal strategy are much more abundent IMO.

With that considered, if we can find enough spots to exploit in a PLO8 BH then we should be taking them, whether they agree with 'Game Theory', equity %'s or not. As long as they return a higher expected EV than compared to the conventional approach. IMO this is indeed the case. There are so many areas where exploitable mistakes arise in OH8. It can be folding AA7X because you are covered and feel you are only a slight favourite as you feel you will later be able to get your 23xx all in, on an all low flop, with another player playing high only stuff in the blinds. It can be reading board textures in a way that you can blast a pot knowing due to the dynamic of the hand that most of the time your opponent simply cannot call. It can be deciding not to balance ranges in certain spots because this would simply be burning chips as some of our opponents are just 'playing their hand' and paying little attention to us.

If we can find exploitable mistakes and have a high enough return this way then IMO it thoroughly negates the need to get involved in situations that are marginal, simply because they have an expected EV of slightly over 0.

I find this approach in OH8 to be much more profitable than playing the numbers game. Having said that, of course it would be foolish to disregard the numbers. I prefer to aim for a blended approach to the games that utilises both 'Game Theory' and 'Exploitative' strategies.

To address one of the specific points...

"after you will find out you need to have like an roi of like >60% to justifiy passing up the edge of the spot ."

This is basically the point I am making.

I think it is indeed possible to have such an roi via a blend of exploitative and 'Game Theory' strategies that does not overly focus on the numbers.

Coincidence that you mention the roi stats. The site I played most on over the years was stars. I left after throwing my toys out of the pram over a promotional dispute with them. I usually had my stats blocked on stars but I requested a fortnight ago that they be unblocked (considering live staking for next years WSOP so will need to show this stuff). Today is the first day for several years they are actually unblocked - Marky_Crash on Pokerstars.

So do they justify the approach I advocate which you mention we need around a 60% roi to make work? Well 59% over 3388 OH8 games, we miss out by 1%

If we consider other sites with any reasonable sample to improve the overall sample size we get above the 60% though. Marky_Crash on the Ongame Network comes in at 89% roi over 500 games; Marky_Crash. on the Ongame Network (different skin) comes in at 141% roi over 230 games; MarkyCrash on Ongame Network (another skin) comes in at 107% over 97 games. Full Tilt shows similar but I wasn't opted in so cannot see the roi %.

I am not sure what my returns on the BH's specifically are on Sky but I would hope they also justify the general approach.

If the games change and less exploits are evident then obviously the pendulum will swing towards the 'Game Theory' side of the equation. Until that point though I feel it is better to not get too hung up on the numbers and instead look for situations to exploit.

I would say it may be misleading of me if I gave the impression that I thought the bounties deserved no thought whatsoever. Firstly if the stack sizes justify it then I will look to change gears and go after all the bounties and then be more controlled if the stack takes a battering. Secondly if a situation is very marginal then obviously this can influence the decision. I just don't feel that bounties need to be a priority as simply looking to use an exploitative strategy can mean that we amass so many chips we end up getting more than our share of bounties anyway.

It is a really interesting point and one which I could happily continue typing about for a while yet, I am guessing by now though that most people have stopped reading the wall of text lol

Phantom66 · May 2017

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - 16th 'interesting spot' (hand 106) - 2369 on the BTN with 1 limp, on the bubble, any takers?:

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - Input from players of all levels is very welcome! : It can be reading board textures in a way that you can blast a pot knowing due to the dynamic of the hand that most of the time your opponent simply cannot call.
Posted by markycash

I hate it when you do that :P

markycash · May 2017

Regarding the 2369 hand on the BTN.

I guess there is definitely a case for raising and trying to do something along those lines. I feel personally the best play is to limp here as we will have various ways of winning the pot post flop. We can either smash the board or hopefully take the pot down anyway post flop by using our position. If we miss the board and our opponent makes it tough to take the pot down then we haven't lost much.

So I agree with the general sentiments expressed here but for some reason I folded lol. Not sure if I was being nitty or was distracted by other games.

Thanks for the comments folks!

I will probably post the next hand tomorrow but will hold back a little in case anyone wants to expand upon the general approach to the games discussion.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		300.00	300.00	15813.35
BB	Big blind		600.00	900.00	14330.41
	Your hole cards	· 9s · 6c · 2c · 3h
CO	Call		600.00	1500.00	8007.18
markycash	fold

Phantom66 · May 2017

I can't really add to the debate above (certainly not at that level anyway)

I don't play many BHs and struggle with the balance of hunting a bounty and staying in the tournament. I have nearly always played freezouts so I favour (and maybe overvalue) staying in.

In my simple mind, a bounty has both a cash value and an equity value in that it also means one less opponent and a bigger stack. A bigger stack early on in a BH should have greater EV relative to a freezout as you will have more opportunities to gain bounties if you are above average stack and even more so if you are comfortably the largest stack at a table.

It can be harder to isolate short stacks in BH because everyone sees the bounty opportunity.

Obviously when deeper, if still there, the bounties take on a much bigger value in cash and equity.

I think in general terms you should be true to your style and always be looking to maximise any edges. PLO8 is different from NL greatly and especially in early to mid stages as you can get to see flops cheaply and imo have more chances to outplay weaker opponents down the streets with pot control, as I think Marky is ably demonstrating in this thread.

markycash · May 2017

In Response to Re: 'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - 16th 'interesting spot' (hand 106) - 2369 on the BTN with 1 limp, on the bubble, any takers?:

I can't really add to the debate above (certainly not at that level anyway) I don't play many BHs and struggle with the balance of hunting a bounty and staying in the tournament. I have nearly always played freezouts so I favour (and maybe overvalue) staying in. In my simple mind, a bounty has both a cash value and an equity value in that it also means one less opponent and a bigger stack. A bigger stack early on in a BH should have greater EV relative to a freezout as you will have more opportunities to gain bounties if you are above average stack and even more so if you are comfortably the largest stack at a table. It can be harder to isolate short stacks in BH because everyone sees the bounty opportunity. Obviously when deeper, if still there, the bounties take on a much bigger value in cash and equity. I think in general terms you should be true to your style and always be looking to maximise any edges. PLO8 is different from NL greatly and especially in early to mid stages as you can get to see flops cheaply and imo have more chances to outplay weaker opponents down the streets with pot control, as I think Marky is ably demonstrating in this thread.
Posted by Phantom66

Great points Phantom and a good summary.

Also, thanks for the kind words.

markycash · May 2017

Apologies for not updating the hands for a couple of days. Have been running awful in these so not really been in the best mind-set for it.

Still running 'okay' elsewhere and cannot be results orientated so on we go...

Hand 107: We get 334j UTG and fold.

Hand 108: Will post this next...

markycash · May 2017

Hand: 108

Hand starting stack: 18.7k

Blinds: 400/800

Situation: We are in the BB with 18.7k and are dealt 2s Tc Th 5s. Our active/aggro player miniraises from UTG (they have 17.8k chips) and action folds around to us. We are 4 handed and I guess must be on the FT bubble. I do not love the hand but do not wish to sit and fold my stack away waiting on premiums either so I flat call. The flop is 2h Qs 3s giving us a weak flush draw. As we are OOP I check and our opponent checks behind. The turn is the Ks and we hit our small flush.

So as always, what do we do here? Do we check behind in case he has a higher flush? Do we bet? If so, how much? Do you agree with the call preflop?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		400.00	400.00	6407.18
markycash	Big blind		800.00	1200.00	17959.07
	Your hole cards	· 2s · 10c · 10h · 5s
UTG	Raise		1600.00	2800.00	16313.35
BTN	Fold
SB	Fold
markycash	Call		800.00	3600.00	17159.07
Flop
		· 2h · Qs · 3s
markycash	Check
UTG	Check
Turn
		· Ks
markycash	?

eon1961 · May 2017

want some information so 1/2 pot.

Phantom66 · May 2017

I think we have to lead out here v aggro player I would go closer to 3/4 to deter a repot bluff or a draw to a low only hand.

HENDRIK62 · May 2017

Call pre is fine and the flop is about as good as it gets, our 2 is counterfeit but we have a flush draw and back door low outs,

Shirley an 'aggro' type with a decent low and a draw to the flush would have bet flop, when the turn brings our flush I think we are ahead, make the bet big enough for villian to make a mistake playing to the low. I think our high is good so we want to extract value.

Only time I may pause for thought would be notes that opponent likes to let me hang myself (which I apty able to do :-))

markycash · May 2017

Thanks for the replies folks!

Some strong agreement that we should be leading out here which I completely agree with. I feel this player would have let us know if they liked the flop.

I bet 1200 as I didn't mind too much if they chase a low for 2 reasons (a) they are likely only drawing to half the pot so their pot odds based upon that are not great (b) I am prepared to fire again on the river as I think even if they make a low hand it may not be strong enough to call a 3/4 pot- pot bet.

Opponent folded and we took it down on the turn.

Result below...

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		400.00	400.00	6407.18
markycash	Big blind		800.00	1200.00	17959.07
	Your hole cards	· 2s · 10c · 10h · 5s
UTG	Raise		1600.00	2800.00	16313.35
BTN	Fold
SB	Fold
markycash	Call		800.00	3600.00	17159.07
Flop
		· 2h · Qs · 3s
markycash	Check
UTG	Check
Turn
		· Ks
markycash	Bet		1200.00	4800.00	15959.07
UTG	Fold
markycash	Muck
markycash	Win		3600.00		19559.07
markycash	Return		1200.00	0.00	20759.07

markycash · May 2017

Hand: 109

Hand starting stack: 20.7k

Blinds: 400/800

Situation: We have 4h 3s 6s Ah in the SB and action folds around to us. Our active/aggro player is in the BB with 16.1k. I decide to limp in as (a) my hand plays well post flop, (b) to underrep my hand, (c) for pot control.

There is obviously an argument for open raising here but I don't feel we have that much to gain via stealing the BB and that simply limping here we may lose a small pot by underrepping and playing our hand OOP. However I feel there are a lot of scenarios that we may win a big pot here if the flop is favourable. If we open raise and our opponent calls it does not define this particular opponents range all that much as they are active/aggro and could continue with the hand with a wide range of hands. If on the other hand they check then this particular opponent has basically to us our low draw is good and we can play the 2nd low like the nuts if a low lands.

The flop is Qh 4c 5s giving us bottom pair, a gutshot wheel draw, open ended straight draw and 2 backdoor flush draws. We have some info about our opponents hand as they checked behind in the BB so we lead out for 800 to try and build the pot, our opponent calls. The turn is unfortunately a brick (Jd) and we continue our line and bet 800 to help control the pot and again our opponent flat calls. I dont feel our opponent is very strong and they would likely have raised sets and we think our low draw is good. The river is another brick (Jh) and we basically have nothing. There is 4800 chips in the middle here, we have shown strength throughout the hand and unless our opponent has stumbled onto trip jacks we don't have them on much.

So what do we do on the river? Are we giving up? Are we bluffing? Has the line taken in the hand been okay? If we do bluff then how much are we betting?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
markycash	Small blind		400.00	400.00	20359.07
BB	Big blind		800.00	1200.00	15513.35
	Your hole cards	· 4h · 3s · 6s · Ah
UTG	Fold
BTN	Fold
markycash	Call		400.00	1600.00	19959.07
BB	Check
Flop
		· Qh · 4c · 5s
markycash	Bet		800.00	2400.00	19159.07
BB	Call		800.00	3200.00	14713.35
Turn
		· Jd
markycash	Bet		800.00	4000.00	18359.07
BB	Call		800.00	4800.00	13913.35
River
		· Jh
markycash	???

HENDRIK62 · May 2017

I don't really like the line, although I understand why you are looking to control pot, anyhoo.....

What are you repping?

I think you bet stronger on flop with trips or 2pr combos, so by the river I put you squarely on a busted draw.

On the turn it looks like you want to see a cheap river (which you do) so I just cant put you on a set or 2pr combo as surely you would like to protect against straight draws

River should be a brick

Only ray of sunshine is the villians super passive line, which I guess is the reason you feel that you can make a play.

If the villian is competent, by sizing it for value we may get a fold, however if you try and blast this river he should smell a rat.

eon1961 · May 2017

Think you should be repping the j here and putting pressure on with pot bet.(not that I have ever done that)

Phantom66 · May 2017

I can't imagine ever limping pre here myself, especially not to be OOP v an aggro player. I take the point that you could get more chips by under-repping v an aggro player pre but you need to hit for that. The blinds are big enough to be happy to take them uncontested and a c-bet after a raise will take the pot down a lot of the time if we miss.

However, as played...

We have to take a stab at the pot imo but we don't have a great story of strength. We are in danger of being called by a bluff catcher as if we take off with a pot bet here it is so polarising.

I would probably go about 2/3 pot. If they have literally nothing they cannot call, if they have us beat with only bluff catcher strength I think a 2/3 bet looks less "bluffy" and may still get a fold. If they have a J or the game to rebluff then we have saved some chips.

markycash · May 2017

Thanks for the replies folks!

There are certainly some valid points made which advocate alternate lines.

As for the limp preflop. If I raise from the BB, what I am 'stealing' only represents <5% of my stack and is therefore not all that significant. I find that with hands like this which play so well postflop it can be worthwhile letting an opponent see a flop and hopefully they pick up inferior draws that they do not want to lay down. I mean our opponent might get stubborn with a weak low/bad flush draw as they think we would have raised any decent A/low type hand preflop.

In the end I thought I could rep almost any board as I do tend to limp wide from the SB.

I fired a 2400 bet on the river and our opponent called with 2 pair and we lost. I didn't mind too much as we only have to get the fold 1 in 3 times to make the play break even. It may also encourage wide calls when we have the goods. Does that mean the line was wrong? Or is that being results orientated? There are arguments to be made for both sides of the coin IMO.

Will post the next hand(s) later when I have some more time.

Thanks again for the replies folks!

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		400.00	400.00	6407.18
markycash	Big blind		800.00	1200.00	17959.07
	Your hole cards	· 2s · 10c · 10h · 5s
UTG	Raise		1600.00	2800.00	16313.35
BTN	Fold
SB	Fold
markycash	Call		800.00	3600.00	17159.07
Flop
		· 2h · Qs · 3s
markycash	Check
UTG	Check
Turn
		· Ks
markycash	Bet		1200.00	4800.00	15959.07
UTG	Fold
markycash	Muck
markycash	Win		3600.00		19559.07
markycash	Return		1200.00	0.00	20759.07

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
markycash	Small blind		400.00	400.00	20359.07
BB	Big blind		800.00	1200.00	15513.35
	Your hole cards	· 4h · 3s · 6s · Ah
UTG	Fold
BTN	Fold
markycash	Call		400.00	1600.00	19959.07
BB	Check
Flop
		· Qh · 4c · 5s	<span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Verdana','sans-serif';col

'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a &#163;5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - 18th 'interesting spot' (hand 109) -

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'Stay or Go' Style hand breakdown of a £5.50 PLO8 BH MTT - 18th 'interesting spot' (hand 109) -