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Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.
Hi all.
I would like to start this thread to encourage people to ask questions about omaha and omaha Hi Lo. There are enough people on the site who will freely give very good advice on these games and it is time their knowledge was utilised.
The game itself is very different from NLHE and new skills need to be learnt so feel free to come here and get the knowledge required to excel in these variants of the game.Omaha is a beautiful and brutal variation of poker and is a joy to behold watching great players sat at the tables.
So please feel free to ask away about any aspect of these games and i am sure you will be impressed with the great feedback you receive.
Wishing you luck at the tables
Talon(Colin)
I would like to start this thread to encourage people to ask questions about omaha and omaha Hi Lo. There are enough people on the site who will freely give very good advice on these games and it is time their knowledge was utilised.
The game itself is very different from NLHE and new skills need to be learnt so feel free to come here and get the knowledge required to excel in these variants of the game.Omaha is a beautiful and brutal variation of poker and is a joy to behold watching great players sat at the tables.
So please feel free to ask away about any aspect of these games and i am sure you will be impressed with the great feedback you receive.
Wishing you luck at the tables
Talon(Colin)
Comments
Omaha (High)
Just how big a disadvangtage is it to have a third suited card in your hand preflop? If you have a hand like As-Kd-Jh-9s we're generally doing jigs around the room; how much does your feeling change if that hand becomes As-Ks-Jh-9s though?
With As Kd Jh 9s we have AK,AJ KJ J9 and A9 suited giving us 5 nut drawing hands.(K9 counts for nothing due to having AK)
With As Ks Jh 9s we have AK AJ KJ and J9 giving us only 4 nut drawing hands.
As we can see with the third spade being in our hand not only do we have less chance of hitting our nut flush but we also lose a nut drawing hand with the 9 become a less relevant card.
It is never a good idea to have a card you are drawing to dead in your hand wether it be a third or fourth of a suit or having pocket trips.
So not only for my benifit but to another of other hold em players who may like to play Omaha could you maybe give a little more talk on a starting hand like this, as i think it would help a number of people change their Omaha games better.
Yes preflop you will be ahead,but you are barely a favourite against a good drawing handlike 89Tj ds.You only have 2 nut drawing hands and any flop that doesnt contain an ace or 2 spades will leave you in pretty bad shape. Most people when they cross over to omaha from NLHE will see the AA and become blinded to any other possibilities.They will raise pre and auto c-bet any flop and then wonder why they only win a small pot or end up losing a big pot.
In NLHE if you have AA you will be 80-90% favourite preflop to any possible holding your opponent could have. In omaha even with AAKK ds you are not guarunteed to be more than 60-65% favourite preflop.
To use advice given in NLHE, you do not want to play big pairs in multiway pots because they become less likely to win.Well in omaha even heads up you are against 6 hands so you will always be playing multiway so you always need the back up of other nut drawing possibilities.
I would not suggest not playing these types of hands but it is best not to commit too much of your stack preflop. Also you need to be able to lay these hands down when you miss. Strange as it may seem sometimes the best move in omaha is to lay down the nuts, and this is the major lesson that NLHE players need to learn.
In NLHE DYMs you can play a good solid formulaic game and be very successful but i know not of any similar style that can be utilised in the omaha version.If someone knows of one i for one would be glad to hear about it
So as i said due to the variance and nature of the game i think it is harder to be consistently successful there so i would personally stick with what you are successful at.
so losing 1 out makes it 11% weaker. therefore if we have all 9 outs we are 99% to hit our flush draw. sweet.
it was merely a humourous way of pointing out that what he said is incorrect. i am very sorry if you did not appreciate my post
The value of the draw was decreased by 11%. He did not say that the chances of winning the hand decreased by 11%. It was clearly stated.
You obviously mis-interpreted his post.
The game is played from the flop so judge your hand from there and throw away bad hands and bad draws at this stage and do not be tempted to call pre flop with any 4 and hope to get lucky.
The players you want are the ones who raise pre flop and auto c-bet. These guys will win small pots and lose big ones so be ready to pounce when you hit a massive draw or big hand.A lot of players will put in big raises with AA or KK without realising how fragile these hands are even if they hit.
NLHE is ruled by the three b's (bully,bluff and bluster) and a lot of people will transfer that to omaha but it doesnt cross over well.Preflop raising and c-betting is the perfect example of this.They seem unable to see that people have more chance of hitting the flop in omaha so they can not be so easily pushed off a hand.
The only rule i have found so far is that if you see 3 and 4 betting preflop then it is most likely AA vs KK and a lack of understanding.
So keep you starting range to 3+ nut drawing hands and you should be fine. Just remember the more nut drawing hands you have then the more chance you have of hitting the flop and the more chance of winning the pot.
Yeah i do find its either someone whos ridiculously aggro any 4 regardless of suit and connectors, or someone with a jj+ pair. I have been folding alot to them unless i have several draws and was just double checking this is the correct way, im not actually losing to these players but its something which frustrates me alot as on your advice i realise raising isn't the best way in omaha.
Thanks mate will pop in if i need any more help
Firstly a preflop raise is only used to build the pot up and to make it more worthwhile winning.It does not indicate amazing strength because the strength comes after the flop.
Secondly, the point of a preflop raise is to remove the any4 card merchants. These players should not be involved in a pot that has been raised and so you should be down to players that only have good drawing hands.
When you do raise pre flop you should not be auto c-betting but only doing so when you hit the flop nicely, When playing good hands this is much more likely. If you hit the flop nicely after calling a preflop raise then you should be betting out and under no circumstance should you be check-raising because in a pot limit game you are leaving value behind by not betting especially if your opponent checks behind you.
Hope this clears up some points about preflop action in omaha.
I knew it was a good hand but should i have raised pre?? or fine just flating
also i have bet out flop as 2 diamonds is this good play? tell me what u would have done different here if anything
thanks in advance mate
I realise now though i should be raising my good drawing hands other then that played itself just a shame was against shortstack:P
Talon going to post another couple on here in a bit you will remember one hand just want to see whether i could of got away with it or could have played differently
Preflop: You have a good strong hand and you do not really want to be playing it 4 handed or if you do you want to be playing it for a very big pot, so i think you really should have raised preflop.With 2 limpers you were probably going to be called anyway but this is the chance of turning a good starting hand into a potential massive coup.
Flop: You did the right thing to bet out with your draw because of the need to build the pot up for if you do hit it. 3/4 pot is probably a bit low because it prices in too many hands at this point but allows a possibly bigger pot with more opponents. I always favour a full pot bet here.
Turn: Again i like the continued strength with the bet again though possibly pot size again would be better. When you get the raise coming back at you you are getting about 6 to 1 to make the call which is easily the right odds with your nut draws.
Interestingly look at your opponents hand at this point. He has the second nuts on the board and a dead hand so he must know at this point that the river has to be amazing for him to win.
As it was your draw came in and you took down a nice pot. If you had raised pre flop and potted the flop you could have increased the pot size and taken down a bit bigger pot.As the cards came down everything was completely standard about the hand and you played it pretty well and very nearly maximised your winnings.
Omaha is a twofold game being about aggression and paranoia. There was nothing on the board to be paranoid about this time but the need for a bit more aggression is probably needed.
I had the pleasure of sharing a table with you last night and was talking to you about preflop aggression and you saw how i was behaving preflop. I was raising quite a few times(strangely normally on your BB) but i was not automatically firing out a c-bet. This allowed me to thin out the fields and lose the minimum when i missed and maximise my winnings when i hit.
Talon you was here and said this is just standard here but i just wondered whether could have been played differently at all here?
due to his chipsize mainly but still could i have got away from this, maybe bet more on the flop?
Was fun at the table, think allsorts overated his 2 pairs, although did get a bit of a card rack later on lol
I look forward to playing with you again may play a bit more lately as i think there is more of an edge then in holdem on here
Regards
John
Hand 1. The raise on the flop showed great strength and the flat call behind should fire out some warning bells.So you need to think of possible holdings here. We can immediately rule out the over set which leaves us with flush draw or wrapped straight draw or(this being a 4 card game) both of these.So we know we are ahead at this point but our opponent has a lot of outs.Unless our opponent has QQ the turn is a blank although putting more straight draws on the board.So again we can be quite certain to be ahead here but there are now a lot of cards to dodge.You were right to bet out again and to call the allin.Your opponent had only 7 outs available to him making you about a 6 to 1 favourite to win the pot and you just got unlucky that he hit.But he realised at the time that he was gambling.you played it well and played it right and the result was just the downside of variance but keep doing this and it is a winning play
Hand 2. This is a perfect example of holdem play in an omaha hand.You did the right thing by betting out on the flop with your nut draw.When you were called you have to put your opponent on a range of possible holdings. In this case wweak flush draw, wrap straight draw set or 2 pair.The turn is the worst card possible because although it completes your draw it takes you a long way away from the nuts. You now have 2 options, bet to find out where you are or check, either is acceptable in this case. You chose the first option and as soon as you were raised you should have snap folded because you are now only beating a bad flush or a bluff.
If this were NLHE then you could be pretty certain of being ahead at this point and should be going all the way but in omaha Mr Paranoia should appear and tell you your behind and you should listen to him.You said yourself you knew you were behind and drawing virtually dead but you carried on. The default setting in omaha should be if i think i am behind and drawing thin= FOLD.