Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.

YOUNG_GUN

NH talon, terrible play by opponent me thinks but then they were very shortstack

thats why people should buy in full in any poker game

Talon

  Just thought i would put this hand up as a warning to all players about starting hands and why not to get married to big PP. First of all i know it was a loose call by me preflop but i had a good read on the opponent.He was overrating pocket pairs and playing in a very Holdem way so i knew that i could take down his entire stack or only lose the preflop raise.Would be interesting to get other peoples thoughts on this hand.Criticism gladly accepted.

YOUNG_GUN

Pre, i wouldn't have called but as you had a read on the opponent and 4 cards not a bad call

got very lucky with flop and did right betting out, you played fine other then pre imo but then again with your read cant really fault that too bad. Other person definately doesn't know the difference between PLO and NLH was good to see you back on the tables mate

Darntootin

In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:

 Hi Mr Darntootin and welcome to the thread.   Unfortunately i am unable to recommend any books to you at all on the subject of omaha due to the fact that i have never read one on the subject being totally self taught.    As far as playing PLO on the various structures, STT MTT and cash. I will always err on the side of cash. PLO is a game of flops and streets and therefore in my opinion does not tranfer well into any fast blind structure where preflop aggro becomes paramount.With cash you can much easier make correct calls with the odds chasing down the streets.As long as you make sure you sit down with a full pull up you can give yourself full licence to play every hand properly.   If there is anything you want to know feel free to ask either on this thread or if you find me on a table, as anyone will tell you i am always willing to help. My desire is to increase the knowledge,ability and enjoyment of any player in this wonderful variant of the game.
Posted by Talon

Thanks anyway Talon. Like you I am self taught but was wanting to read up a bit on the game to help my cash play. Really enjoying your analysis of the hands posted here as they are very detailed and seem to make a lot of sense. I look forward to your help in the future (if I ever get around to learning how to post hands).

YOUNG_GUN

Right last hand of my 15 min sesh just now did i play it ok? pre- i realise i have commited alot but mainly due to against wba, other person who was big stack has been showing very loose calls and alot of two pairs so think this is a good spot here. with the flop standard going all in although was thinking best way to get chips and realised could easily get a call from a diamond flush draw

funny thing i did actually say before the hand this was my last hand glad it worked out :P

wba157	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.76
tinman1958	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.75
	Your hole cards	A A 9 K
YOUNG_GUN	Raise		£0.14	£0.20	£5.57
BonnyBonz	Call		£0.14	£0.34	£5.01
classasa	Call		£0.14	£0.48	£15.22
wba157	Raise		£0.52	£1.00	£1.24
tinman1958	Fold
YOUNG_GUN	Raise		£1.60	£2.60	£3.97
BonnyBonz	Fold
classasa	Call		£1.60	£4.20	£13.62
wba157	Call		£1.20	£5.40	£0.04
Flop
		4 2 A
wba157	All-in		£0.04	£5.44	£0.00
YOUNG_GUN	All-in		£3.97	£9.41	£0.00
classasa	Call		£3.97	£13.38	£9.65
wba157	Show	2 8 2 8
YOUNG_GUN	Show	A A 9 K
classasa	Show	4 5 8 7
Turn
		4
River
		5
YOUNG_GUN	Win	Full House, Aces and 4s	£12.68		£12.68

Talon

  Preflop against 2 very loose and aggressive players i still do not the 4-bet but understand your reasoning.

  On that flop the only callers you should get to your correct all-in move are under sets made straight and nut flush draw so the call with second pair and a gutshot surprises me.Or at least it would of if i hadnt played against the same opponent earlier and saw they were very willing to make very big and suspect calls.

   The main thing to remember about your play in this hand is your other cards. Not only did you have top set but also the nut flush blocker.

  So i hated it preflop but perfect on the flop because even if behind to the straight you had outs.Very nice to be called by one player on a 1 outer and the other on a 4 outer. NIce result.

Talon

bump. Come on guys more input please

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:

Right last hand of my 15 min sesh just now did i play it ok? pre- i realise i have commited alot but mainly due to against wba, other person who was big stack has been showing very loose calls and alot of two pairs so think this is a good spot here. with the flop standard going all in although was thinking best way to get chips and realised could easily get a call from a diamond flush draw funny thing i did actually say before the hand this was my last hand glad it worked out :P wba157 Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £1.76 tinman1958 Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £3.75   Your hole cards A A 9 K       YOUNG_GUN Raise   £0.14 £0.20 £5.57 BonnyBonz Call   £0.14 £0.34 £5.01 classasa Call   £0.14 £0.48 £15.22 wba157 Raise   £0.52 £1.00 £1.24 tinman1958 Fold         YOUNG_GUN Raise   £1.60 £2.60 £3.97 BonnyBonz Fold         classasa Call   £1.60 £4.20 £13.62 wba157 Call   £1.20 £5.40 £0.04 Flop     4 2 A       wba157 All-in   £0.04 £5.44 £0.00 YOUNG_GUN All-in   £3.97 £9.41 £0.00 classasa Call   £3.97 £13.38 £9.65 wba157 Show 2 8 2 8       YOUNG_GUN Show A A 9 K       classasa Show 4 5 8 7       Turn     4       River     5       YOUNG_GUN Win Full House, Aces and 4s £12.68   £12.68
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

standard 4bet pre

Talon

 There is nothing even remotely standard about a 4-bet preflop.

SHANXTA

there is in this spot.

from my limited knowledge of the game i'm pretty certain it's the right move, and i'm pretty certain the majority of omaha players would agree with me

YOUNG_GUN

Shanxta alot of omaha is about the post flop play, pre flop unless you have moster draws there is no point in 4 betting. even with aces/kings unless you have good draws, if someone else 4 bets you can call with hands but i wouldnt be raising with them if that makes sense. I have been taught by talon so he would give you a better explanation but raising pre is a holdem strategy and is not necessary in omaha

DOHHHHHHH

If I think I can get most/all of the money in pre flop, with AA xx - I will - I read only one bit of 1 book about omaha, it was hellmuths, and this is what he said...

So in multi way pots, if I get 3 bet, especially if it's a shorter stack, i'll be 4 betting as much as poss to get it heads up, and in the middle.

AAxx is a fave over any other non AA hand right?

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:

If I think I can get most/all of the money in pre flop, with AA xx - I will - I read only one bit of 1 book about omaha, it was hellmuths, and this is what he said... So in multi way pots, if I get 3 bet, especially if it's a shorter stack, i'll be 4 betting as much as poss to get it heads up, and in the middle. AAxx is a fave over any other non AA hand right?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Only slight and with 4 hands each if you haven't got good draws and your opponent has a few then likely you will lose. Talon will explain it better but thats not the way to play omaha, by all means can raise it up to isolate but then depends on how your opponent plays whether you want all the chips in pre or not. if they play good draws only then you dont want to go all in pre as they will have more outs, where as if your up against someone with say 88jj and will commit cos they have two pairs then all day long then by all means get as much in pre as possible.

Im probably waffling on here, so apologise if it doesn't make sense. i know what i mean thats the main thing :P

mag70

My first contribution to this great thread.

Scenario is as follows: I'm UTG and choose to limp my hand with the knowledge that B, who pretty much always raises pre-flop, would also do it this time. I would then smooth call the raise to keep a managable pot pre-flop. How wrong I was..... After another round of re-raising, all-in calls are made. For me it would be £6.50 to call the first two all ins and it would have been a no-brainer with the pot odds it gave.

However, B, who remember is a very aggressive player and one I had a good read on, then shove all in, giving me considerably worse pot odds. I was pretty much certain that I was way in front of BB with my cards.

The end result was very nice, but would you have made the call?

`

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
A	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£14.40
B	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£35.97
	Your hole cards	8 10 A A
mag70	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£32.48
C	Fold
D	Fold
E	Call		£0.20	£0.70	£10.85
A	Call		£0.10	£0.80	£14.30
B	Raise		£0.80	£1.60	£35.17
mag70	Call		£0.80	£2.40	£31.68
E	Call		£0.80	£3.20	£10.05
A	Raise		£4.30	£7.50	£10.00
B	Call		£3.50	£11.00	£31.67
mag70	Call		£3.50	£14.50	£28.18
E	All-in		£10.05	£24.55	£0.00
A	All-in		£10.00	£34.55	£0.00
B	All-in		£31.67	£66.22	£0.00
mag70	All-in		£28.18	£94.40	£0.00
B	Unmatched bet		£3.49	£90.91	£3.49
A	Show	A 10 5 5
B	Show	K 4 5 4
mag70	Show	8 10 A A
E	Show	Q K K J
Flop
		6 9 6
Turn
		2
River
		8
mag70	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and 6s	£90.01		£90.01

DOHHHHHHH

If we're favourite when the money goes in, it doesn't matter how many times we lose, we're always gonna win more often than not.

YOUNG_GUN

only slight though jj..

NH mag, played it fine in what you planned to do. i bet one of those players was bobby p? im guessing player A

Talon input...

DOHHHHHHH

lol ok so it's only a slightly profitable play then, but the key word there is profitable....

And especially as a beginner.

If I play omaha against a good experienced player like talon, and u offer me the chance to get my mony in v him pre flop as a 55/45 favourite, i will bite your hand off.

YOUNG_GUN

It depends on who your playing and what ranges you put them on tbf

Your right if i can get in slight fave against talon i would also bite your hand off lol

As for aces at best your going to be 60/40 fave as opposed to holdem your can be up to 80/20, key thing is alot of omaha is post flop and beginners tend to overcommite with not the strongest of hands as in this game you want to be getting in 70/30 if you can at least because there are so many draws

DOHHHHHHH

It doesnt matter what range I put my opponent on....

You give me AA xx, and say you are gonna call my all in pre flop.....

I will then let you chose 4 cards of your choice, but can only use 1 of the 2 remaining aces.

I will take you up on this every single time coz I know Im guarenteed to be a favourite and win long term.

I aint good enough to wait, and outplay my opponents to make sure im an 80-20 fave when the money goes in. Maybe talon is...he definitely is at nl4.

.......But give me aces and he chance to get it AIPF heads up and Im a happy guy.

If u get it in pre with aces, its a winnin play, fact. If you go to a flop with aces, ur gonna hate so many flops, that ur just gonna get pushed off the hand and lose pots u shud have won. - Also, the times u play aces strongly pre flop and make oponents fold, means you sweep up money to add to the profit u already make from winning more than 50% of all ins.

oynutter

Hi Talon, imo omaha is a floppin mental game for mad gamblers--- Am I wrong?

Talon

 Hi mag just looked over this hand.

  Your hand AAt8 ds is a very good starting hand an i would want to be playing any size pot with it. The thing to do in this hand for future reference is to check out your opponents actions and cards.
  Player A 3-bet preflop and called rerasies with a complete bag of nails hand.
  Player B 5-bet preflop with a complete bag of nails.
  Player E however was the only other player involved with a decent hand.

  So basically you played it fine and what you want to do is make a note of players A and B and realise they are good sources of income because they overplay really bad hands.

Talon

 JJ quick question for you.

 Me and you play a hypothetical 100 hands each time with a full pull up. Every hand we are both allin preflop with you as a 55/45 favourite each time.Let us also say that the law of averages plays along and you win 55 of these hands.

 How much profit will you make over those 100 hands?

DOHHHHHHH

Hmmmmm i dunno, id win 55 x 8 and lose 45 x 8......then take out the rake. Whats the rake?

Ive no idea.

Oh and id need to make a return of £400 to break even obv....

Talon

Exactly my point that i am trying to make.overall you would be 10 buy ins up. But once you allow for the rake on 200 buyins over 100 hands then i think you will find that your profit will be very small or possibly non existant.

 This is why in a cash game all in as 55% favourite is not a winning move in the long run. It is in tourny or STT play overall. This is why raising to increase the potential winnings is good it is the flop and onwards play that determines your profitability.

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:

Exactly my point that i am trying to make.overall you would be 10 buy ins up. But once you allow for the rake on 200 buyins over 100 hands then i think you will find that your profit will be very small or possibly non existant.  This is why in a cash game all in as 55% favourite is not a winning move in the long run. It is in tourny or STT play overall. This is why raising to increase the potential winnings is good it is the flop and onwards play that determines your profitability.
Posted by Talon

u wud still be in profit, plus ur not taking in2 account any dead money that is already in d pot, and when mtt/stt rake is higher at 10%, I struggle 2 c how gettin it in there @ 55/45 is more favourable

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:

Shanxta alot of omaha is about the post flop play, pre flop unless you have moster draws there is no point in 4 betting. even with aces/kings unless you have good draws, if someone else 4 bets you can call with hands but i wouldnt be raising with them if that makes sense. I have been taught by talon so he would give you a better explanation but raising pre is a holdem strategy and is not necessary in omaha
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

but if ur uber passive and keep flattin 3bets with decent aces its a losing strategy if ur jus hopin 2 flop top set / nut flush everytime?

if u wanna play that passive, which is prob an option given that standard at nl4 tbh then limp pre, dnt raise/ flat 3bet

waynec

Hi Talon
Just like to say a very good thread m8 I have been following it with interest and must say the advise you give out IMO is spot on, I started to learn Omaha in 1999 when I first started playing poker as at that time it was the preferred game in the UK it was not until Moneymakers WSOP win did holdem take off in this country.

Well done for promoting Omaha and your solid advise I have learnt from the thread.

Talon

 Thank you for the kind words.

  I sometimes doubt my own advice at times. I am self taught at the game and have not been rolled to play the game properly and possibly to my potential. So because of this all of my advice can not be backed up with me saying how good i am because i am unproved in that aspect. About 90% of feedback i have received has been very positive so i fell i must at least be on the right lines and i will endeavour to improve the advice that i offer.

waynec

In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:

 Thank you for the kind words.   I sometimes doubt my own advice at times. I am self taught at the game and have not been rolled to play the game properly and possibly to my potential. So because of this all of my advice can not be backed up with me saying how good i am because i am unproved in that aspect. About 90% of feedback i have received has been very positive so i fell i must at least be on the right lines and i will endeavour to improve the advice that i offer.
Posted by Talon

Your welcome look forward to catching up with you at the table

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:

 Thank you for the kind words.   I sometimes doubt my own advice at times. I am self taught at the game and have not been rolled to play the game properly and possibly to my potential. So because of this all of my advice can not be backed up with me saying how good i am because i am unproved in that aspect. About 90% of feedback i have received has been very positive so i fell i must at least be on the right lines and i will endeavour to improve the advice that i offer.
Posted by Talon

out of interest, do u think people like me n doh were just given thousands to start playing?

u play 2/4p correct? any1 with the smallest omaha knowledge should be able to crush that game, and then move on to 5/10p, and so on, no?