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Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.

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  • GlenelgGlenelg
    edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
    BUMP. This thread is gold for all Omaha newbies. And I can personally vouch that Talon (Colin) is more than happy to impart his wisdom. Ask, and ye shall receive!
    Posted by RICHORFORD
    OK! I'll go first. Which team did you pick & why? That Q is for Talon & not Rich!
    pad
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  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail
    edited January 2012
    Followed DoH's link an looked at another vid by the same guy... hell mr thewy lol

    http://www.pokertube.com/my-pokerface?movie=14108&title=PLO_-__100___200_and__400&mlpage=0
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  • rancidrancid
    edited January 2012
    PLO

    raise sizes & pot bets

    What is the standard pre flop raise size with prem hands, do we raise pot ?

    are we potting rarther than 3/4 pot bets in NLHE

    could you expand, can we ever price oppo's out in PLO or are we just extracting value with no improvers
    If we have improvers to the nutz, we then bet less ?





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  • Nuttall07Nuttall07
    edited January 2012
    Talon why don't you go play on stars and make millions????
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  • TalonTalon
    edited January 2012
     interesting questions.

     Ok firstly preflop raising. There is no standard as such but the need to understand the purpose of the bet. Preflop you are looking to get rid of the any4 brigade and hopefully take position for post flop play. Also the raise is to make the pot more desirable for winning but without committing yourself to the pot. Unless we are dealing with latter stage tourny play or shortstack play then we do not want to commit too large a proportion of our stack before seeing a flop.

      As to bet sizing this is an issue that raises debate. When playing down the streets if you have a massive hand or a massive draw then you want to be betting out to build up the pot and preferably take it to HU play(which is easier to control and know your situation). So 3 or 4 way i would definately be potting to het rid of the weaker draws and marginal holdings. I tend to always favour pot on the flop(especially if in position) because you can then use the turn to either crank it up again or slow down for pot control.

      As to pricing out your opponents. Some people will call very light and therefore can never be priced out but to talk about the 2 major scenarios on the flop then the answer is always no.

      As an example  top set vs NFD   or topset vs OESD. In both of these situations your opponent would be around the 2 to 1 mark to win the pot on the flop. The maximum you can bet is pot which automatically gives odds of 2 to 1 to any potential callers.

      As far as improvers are concerned what we are truely looking for on any given flop is the nuts plus extensions plus redraws.An example of this would be  As Qs Jd Th  with the flop coming down  789 with 2 spades. Here we have the nut straight with extensions to a bigger straight and redraws to the nut flush.

      Bet sizing is always a difficult subject in PLO due to the fact that as compared to NLHE where you can get paid on all streets in PLO you tend to only get paid on the flop and turn and when their draws miss on the river they fold to your value bet. The best advice i can give is always bet big on made hand or big draw to extract as much value as you can and remember that if you take the pot down at this point then outdraws cant happen.

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  • Nuttall07Nuttall07
    edited January 2012
    TALON WHY DONT YOU GO PLAY ON STARS AND MAKE MILLIONS????
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  • SJspanky1SJspanky1
    edited February 2012
    Starting to play a little micro/low stakes PLO so thought I'd bump this thread and see what latest thinking/tactical advice is in these games.
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  • SJspanky1SJspanky1
    edited February 2012
    I'm liking my draws post-flop here, when I pick up more on turn I am happy to get it in even though I know I'm behind if he calls. Bad result but correct play with number of outs?
    pearson714 Small blind   £0.05 £0.05 £6.17
    BALTIMORE Big blind   £0.10 £0.15 £7.90
      Your hole cards
    • 4
    • A
    • A
    • 3
    		     
    SJspanky1 Raise   £0.20 £0.35 £10.79
    ashley1984 Call   £0.20 £0.55 £1.05
    TWRAMYEP Call   £0.20 £0.75 £10.78
    pearson714 Call   £0.15 £0.90 £6.02
    BALTIMORE Call   £0.10 £1.00 £7.80
    Flop
       
    • 6
    • 10
    • 5
    		     
    pearson714 Check        
    BALTIMORE Check        
    SJspanky1 Bet   £1.00 £2.00 £9.79
    ashley1984 Fold        
    TWRAMYEP Fold        
    pearson714 Call   £1.00 £3.00 £5.02
    BALTIMORE Fold        
    Turn
       
    • 6
    		     
    pearson714 Check        
    SJspanky1 Bet   £3.00 £6.00 £6.79
    pearson714 All-in   £5.02 £11.02 £0.00
    SJspanky1 Call   £2.02 £13.04 £4.77
    pearson714 Show
    • 8
    • 7
    • K
    • 6
    		     
    SJspanky1 Show
    • 4
    • A
    • A
    • 3
    		     
    River
       
    • 8
    		     
    pearson714 Win Full House, 6s and 8s £12.34   £12.34
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  • TalonTalon
    edited February 2012
      The main difficulty people find when moving to omaha is the need to play closer to the nuts. This hand is a prime example of this.

     Preflop:like the raise enough to build the pot up but not enough to commit yoursefl.
     Flop. This flop is not as good for you as you would think. When you consider hands with 789x are well within the preflop calling range then you are only looking at the 2 for the nuts so effectively you have a gutshot.
     Turn: Again this card is not as good as you would think. You can almost forget about the flush or straight draw here because a lot of the cards that make the draw complete also fill up houses. So really here you are playing to hit your 2 outer with your aces.

     It is ok in NLHE to chase these big flush and straight draws on a paired board but in omaha it is just an easy way to throw money away.

     For me the flop would be either a chack or smaller bet. The turn would be check/call a small bet or check /fold. Chasing draws is the right thing to do but you really need to keep it closer to the nuts. Also use your position as a weapon. In this hand your opponent was OOP against you which gave you the chance to use pot control on the turn.

     Just a few thoughts there, hope some of it is of some use.
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  • _keenberg_keenberg
    edited February 2012
    Hi, question for PLO jedis... on a table where multiple opponenets are seeing every flop, broadway hands hold less 'freeroll big-play' stacking potential... especially in a cash game where rake killd you when broadway only splits & is not outdrawn by set/2-pair boating up... therefore broadway wrap hands that look so pretty become 'win small, lose big' hands to not get giddy with preflop espeially, eg. KKQ/Jx, KQJ10. AKJQ - last one especially limited - agree ??
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  • _keenberg_keenberg
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
    Hi, question for PLO jedis... on a table where multiple opponenets are seeing every flop, broadway hands hold less 'freeroll big-play' stacking potential... especially in a cash game where rake killd you when broadway only splits & is not outdrawn by set/2-pair boating up... therefore broadway wrap hands that look so pretty become 'win small, lose big' hands to not get giddy with preflop espeially, eg. KKQ/Jx, KQJ10. AKJQ - last one especially limited - agree ??
    Posted by _keenberg
    whether these hands are double suited or not sways me a little but not much, in multiway games, hitting a flush wins u nothing unless u get vs a set to sweat if u play a nut flush cute, omaha a game of low straights... eg 8766 on a 456 flop or 9875 on 346 flop either bust aces or freeroll a weaker nuts with redraws (ok flushes uselful for this bit !!! why do people play these big broadway hands like they are the 'nuts' is crazy in pot limit, implied odds blown with a high flop as i desribed in above post.... how i play now anyway, especially against the now prevalent ring PLO 'every-hand' pf raise, CB flop aggros, hope some find this useful or agree, shalomski, keenberg
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  • SJspanky1SJspanky1
    edited February 2012
    There certainly does seem to be a tendency for continuous pre-flop and cont bet aggression esp at PLO50/100.

    Thing is I see guys like LJ_Elson and JakeDixon continuously winning big with this style. They appear happy to get it all-in w less than nut draws yet continuously win. Saw one of them get it all in pre w A8cKQh and flop the str8.

    Is it +EV to play these hands that way? Was pretty obvious they were up against AA?? in that instance mind.

    Thoughts please
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  • _keenberg_keenberg
    edited February 2012
    In Response to Re: Ask away about the 4 card game. Use the Clinic for what it is intended.:
    There certainly does seem to be a tendency for continuous pre-flop and cont bet aggression esp at PLO50/100. Thing is I see guys like LJ_Elson and JakeDixon continuously winning big with this style. They appear happy to get it all-in w less than nut draws yet continuously win. Saw one of them get it all in pre w A8cKQh and flop the str8. Is it +EV to play these hands that way? Was pretty obvious they were up against AA?? in that instance mind. Thoughts please
    Posted by SJspanky1

    yes for sure it is +EV overall to play every hand this way, however quite easy style to take chips off too - interesting everyone coming around to the 99%VPIP FT Finnish style... certainly makes for exciting game & big pots !

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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited February 2012
    good thread for omaha i have a hand to show my question is is this a good time to raise on the river as i am only getting beat by 1 hand but omaha they say if the nuts is out there usually some 1 has got it i just thought was a good value raise thoughts please i didnt like the all in tho but was kinda commited when i raised xstuartSmall blind £0.02£0.02£4.39peaches620Big blind £0.04£0.06£1.83 Your hole cardshttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="diamond">Qhttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">Qhttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">7https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="diamond">10   https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/hhdealer.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; background-position: 100% 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; margin: 0px" class="dealer">IDONKCALLUCall £0.04£0.10£4.03xstuartFold    peaches620Check    Flop  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="diamond">2
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">3
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="diamond">J
       peaches620Bet £0.04£0.14£1.79IDONKCALLUCall £0.04£0.18£3.99Turn  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">8
       peaches620Bet £0.04£0.22£1.75IDONKCALLUCall £0.04£0.26£3.95River  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="heart">Q
       peaches620Bet £0.26£0.52£1.49IDONKCALLURaise £0.65£1.17£3.30peaches620All-in £1.49£2.66£0.00IDONKCALLUCall £1.10£3.76£2.20peaches620Show
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">5
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">J
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="diamond">K
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="heart">J
       IDONKCALLUShow
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="diamond">Q
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">Q
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">7
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="diamond">10
       IDONKCALLUWinThree Queens£3.47 £5.67
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