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On the turn i hate your raise because the card has done nothing for your hand except make it weaker and has also brought in a lot of other draws with there being another straight draw and now a flush draw.Bearing in mind that your opponent bet out on the flop and called your raise and then lead out on the turn as well then you should give him range of at least one of the straight draws and possibly the flush as well.
I think the best move there would be to flat call and reassess on the river when you can see what hands have been completed.Also you should not dicount the possibility of higher 2 pair or sets.
To help your working out if he has 67TK with 2 hearts. Then he has 4 aces 4 nines 4 eights 4 threes and 3 more hearts giving him a total of 19 outs which would make it no better than a race at this point. Also you would be in a world of hurt against QJ or a set leaving yourself as a big underdog.
I think the best course would therefore be to flat the turn and fold on the river which would still leave you a playable stack and not use so many chips just gambling unnecessarily.Just make a careful note of the villains name and remember that he chases any draw no matter how thin and is therefore with the exception of the occasional suck out a big time chip donator.
Is my raise on the turn really that bad though? My thinking was that if I just call the 100 the pot is 1700 and am I really going to fold for another 410 when he can shove on the flop (which i reckoned was a good possibility with only 4 bb's left) and so many scare cards can come that don't actually help him, eg. the heart.
I was also pretty sure I was ahead on the turn (if he has Q J or JJ then it's a fair cop) as a set on the flop would have surely just re-raised my 500 bet as he only had 510 more and I am unlikely to be folding.
Also, you say that the turn card has done nothing for my hand but it give me 3 definite/4 possibly cards for the nut straight. But sure, not a great improvement.
Sorry but I can't be putting him (or anyone) on a max outs hand like 6 7 T K (2 hearts) as it's surely just too unlikely.
Anyway, your answer has given me food for thought and is much appreciated.
I've got another one for you as well...
Omahartigan hi-lo mtt tonight, any getting away from this even if you put someone on having turned the straight?
BANDICOOT Small blind 10.00 10.00 2070.00 Darntootin Big blind 20.00 30.00 2180.00 Your hole cards 10 5 A J TommyD Raise 60.00 90.00 1760.00 Direwolf Call 60.00 150.00 2000.00 blankcheck Call 60.00 210.00 1780.00 BANDICOOT Call 50.00 260.00 2020.00 Darntootin Call 40.00 300.00 2140.00 Flop A 7 J BANDICOOT Check Darntootin Bet 300.00 600.00 1840.00 TommyD Call 300.00 900.00 1460.00 Direwolf Call 300.00 1200.00 1700.00 blankcheck Call 300.00 1500.00 1480.00 BANDICOOT Fold Turn 10 Darntootin Check TommyD All-in 1460.00 2960.00 0.00 Direwolf Call 1460.00 4420.00 240.00 blankcheck Fold Darntootin Call 1460.00 5880.00 380.00 River 2 Darntootin All-in 380.00 6260.00 0.00 Direwolf All-in 240.00 6500.00 0.00 Darntootin Unmatched bet 140.00 6360.00 140.00 Darntootin Show 10 5 A J TommyD Show Q A 5 6 Direwolf Show J J 9 10 TommyD Win high Flush to the Ace 2940.00 2940.00 Darntootin Win high Flush to the Ace 480.00 620.00 TommyD Win low 7-low 2940.00 5880.00 PrevClose windowNext
BLUFFING IN OMAHA.
Aight, It's common knowledge that in NLHE Im an expert at building stacks in tournys then spewing/donking them off going for the win. My Skope graph is very up and down, due to long spells of not cashing, then a big win. My cash %age is low, but when I cash, it's normally a final table.
Anyway, I did something similar in omaha last night, building a decent stack early, nothing special, but was in the top 10 of the field.
Then I picked 2 spots to bluff, to try and dominate the table by being aggressive, and build a stack. Both times....I feel my opponents should have folded, so my timing was pretty good. See what you think...
Hand 1
I read his C bet as week. It was less than pot, and was like he felt obliged to c bet, as he was the pre flop raiser, but didn't really want to. Also, he can only really call me with a set of aces, or Ace x of hearts.
Its a TOTAL bluff, I have no draws, so maybe I should ensure I have at least some kind of draw should I get looked up, but I went with my guy, and made the play. Unfortunately for me, the guy also went with his gut, and made a great call.
Here I'm playing a 20xbb stack, and gets folded round to me in the small blind. A great spot to steal in Holdem, and I have a good hand, a double suited 4 card straight. So raisy daisy. I probably should have realised the guys stack size.....and maybe raised smaller??? Do I always have to open for the full pot?
The flop I would say is pretty dry, only 1 draw out there is 89, but on a paired board, facing a strong raise pre and a c bet, I wouldn't expect 8-9 to continue here unless he has an over-pair or something.
I decide to c bet it, and if he has a 7, fair play.
Anyway, again, the guy calls me, and his 9 high holds. Lol.
I told you in chat, Im ok in the early levels when seeing/playing flops, but I suck when the blinds get bigger, aggression just gets you no-where.
Any advice?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceDOHHHHHHH Small blind 150.00 150.00 3150.00 toro666 Big blind 300.00 450.00 11812.50 Your hole cards 2 4 5 6 MereNovice Fold GREGHOGG Fold lee100 Fold DOHHHHHHH Raise 750.00 1200.00 2400.00 toro666 Call 600.00 1800.00 11212.50 Flop 10 7 7 DOHHHHHHH Bet 1800.00 3600.00 600.00 toro666 Raise 3600.00 7200.00 7612.50 DOHHHHHHH All-in 600.00 7800.00 0.00 toro666 Unmatched bet 1200.00 6600.00 8812.50 DOHHHHHHH Show 2 4 5 6 toro666 Show 8 9 4 6 Turn 10 River A toro666 Win Pair of 10s 6600.00 15412.50
thats my two pennies talon the master will come say something different i assume lol
Firstly top 2 pair is highly unlikely to be ahead on that board. So you have 6 outs to the house and 7 to the nut flush.We should really not count the heart draw as it is onlt to the third nuts which is too weak to be risking our stack with. So 13 potentially good outs making you about 3 to 1 dog in the hand. The main problem is that about 5 or six of your flushing outs are only to a split pot because of the Lo pot draws available. Which now take you to 6 to 1 to win and 6 to 1 to split the pot. In standard PLO it would be a good call but in PLO8 it is a bad call for me because of the weakness of your Lo hand. So in conclusion PLO snap call and in PLO8 snap fold.
To successfully bluff in omaha firstly you need a board that offers you the opportunity to bluff and opponents(s) that are capable of laying down reasonable hands and draws.The sort of board that i mean is.Imagine you are 6 handed and the flop comes down 3 of the same suit and it is checked round to you on the button.This is a perfect bluffing opportunity provided you can follow the story through if you are called.In NLHE however this bet would be seen purely as a steal or a draw
If you restrict your bluffing to semi bluffs only to start with then at least you give yourself the chance of winning the hand by merit as well as bet strength.So in a nutshell bluffing needs to be planned after the flop not before and you need to target the correct players when doing it.
Not really got the hang of PLO8 but thought I would gamble on this as I would have had a massive chip lead early doors and be in a great position.
Although I couldn't count on the heart draw I reckoned there was still a decent chance of it being good and even if I only won the hi pot we would still chop another players stack.
Got one for you talon ,
you have a better omaha head then moi ,
ty in advance denis .
To: IRISHROVER
if you have any tips on omaha starting hands for both types it would be appreciated m8 am thinking of playing some omaha cash
Cheers Michael
PLO: The main criteria for your starting hand should be based upon quantity rather than quality.That is the number of nut drawing 2 card hands you have out of the possible 6 hands.Hands like AAxx rainbow are very poor hands with only 1 nut drawing hand so should be played with extreme caution.Examples of great starting hands are AAKQ ds and 89TJ ds.The general rule that should be remembered is, the more nut drawing hands you have the greater chance you have of hitting the board and therefore winning the hand.
PLO8: The thing to remember straight away with PLO8 is the possibility of the 2 pots within the hand which changes the dynamic of the hand totally. A good starting hand in PLO still plays well in PLO8 but careful monitoring of the board is needed to avoid choppin up large pots. When looking at starting hands it is harder to narrow down what plays well because of the lack of knowledge preflop as to whether the Lo pot will arrive. An example of a hand that does play really well in PLO8 would be AA23 ds with its multiple drawing potential to both the Hi and Lo pots.
A few betting rules to follow.
1) Unless very short stacked do not pot commit yourself preflop as no hand exists that is sure to be better than 2 to 1 favourite at this stage and the flop can destroy any hand.
2) When you flop a monster like nut flush,nut straight or top set you should always bet big.Also if you pick up a monster draw you should as well to make the pot worth winning if you hit.
3) Do not chase straight or flush draws on a paired board
4)NEVER EVER BLUFF.
Hopefully this is of some use. If any help is needed with specific hands then please get back to me as it is much easier to discuss individual hands rather than generalities.
Cheers Denis for posting my question
Thank You Talon for taking the time to answer my Question your advice is most helpful so i have copied & pasted to office so i will have it at hand while playing.
What % of my BR would you advise me to start with on omaha cash?
cheers
Michael aka dtwbandit
With this in mind in an ideal world you would not want to be sitting down with more than 2-5% of your bankroll at anyone time. This is not to protect against bad beats but more protection against outdraws and your draws missing.
To give an example of the game which demonstrates the draw heavy nature of the game i watched a 3 handed table at 10p/20p in which all 3 players were allin on the flop of AJT with 2 diamonds. The hands were made straight vs flushdraw vs top set.No player did anything wrong but 2 players got stacked on this hand.
Cheers Talon gonna start with PLO see how i get on Michael
Hi Talon here's a hand from PLO would appreciate your veiw on my betting on each stage & could i have got more value
fold flop too
The flop is very dry and you have only got a gutshot which makes you 10 to 1 to win the hand and you are very nearly getting the odds and with implied odds i do not mind the flat call because if you do not hit on the turn then you can get away for minimal damage.The turn brings you the nuts with extensions and your pot bet out is perfect and you get the dream of a caller who is at a rough guess playing a weak 2 pair hand and hoping to house up.Now on the river you still have the nuts but with a different 2 cards to the ones you bet out on the turn with.I can not see the opponent calling a pot bet on the turn with the same gutshot and so therefore you know you are a mile ahead and i believe in this situation a weaker bet on the river to possibly represent a busted flush draw would stand a good chance of being called, maybe around the 30-40p mark.The opponent is weak as you know by his flat call on 2 streets so a pot bet here is too much for him to call with his holding.
So all in all i hated your limp but after that fine until your value bet which was too strong to get paid.
Cheers Talon thanks for the feedback m8
Hi Colin (talon) have played 2 sessions of cash 2p/4p PLO came away in profit both times tho i never raised pre or post flop could you have a look at this hand & tell me if i should have raised on flop & if so by how much? also what is standard raise pre-flop with a good starting hand? Cheers Michael
Ty colin great advice as always ,
no probs Michael .
On the flop you have top 2 and the second nut flush draw on a very wet flop with a lot of draws available.For me i would be betting out and with a pot size bet.This is partly to find out where you are and also to build up the pot for if you hit your draw.
The turn is a blank unlesssomeone is sat there with TT but it improves your handand increases your outs but it also brings in another possible draw with JQ.Your bet here is ridiculous.NEVER EVER MIN BET unless you are doing it to induce a raise which is almost never the case.Again i would be going with a pot bet here to get rid of any remaining marginal draws.
The river is scary as it brings in a lot of draws and this combined with the fact that you did not bet out means this draw is liable to have hit so you were right to check but if you had been pot building then a value bet would need to go out here.
As far as preflop raising is concerned i would wholeheartedly recommend raising when you have a top starting hand to get rid of the limp with any 4 card merchants.All preflop raises should be to the maximum allowable which is normally 3-4 BB.Do not fall into the trap though of auto c-betting because this is a good way of winning small pots and losing big ones.So say you raise with AAKK ds(the best starting hand) and the flop comes down 5 6 7 with 2 of a suit you dont have then your best option here is to check with the thinking of folding to a big bet because you are almost certainly behind and possibly drawing very thin indeed.
On the notion of preflop action.Remember this is a pot limit game and therfore the pots need to be built up so when on the button you should be folding about 10-15% of the time and raising the rest, under no circumstance should you be limping because you do not want to hit a monster and end up just stealing the BB.
TPTK is still a very weak holding in omaha because of the high proportion of 2 pair holdings available.On the flop it may be fine to bet with the option of hitting 2 pair/trips on a later street but should be played with caution.Pot control is an important skill and is easiest to do from the SB/button where you have the option to check/call with big draws.Check raising is only recommended when you have good reads on your opponent and know for a fact that they will bet otherwise you could find yourself with an absolute monster hand/draw and playing a small pot because they have not bet.It is always preferable to bet rather than set up a check raise.
Hope some of this is of use JJ.
Cheers m8 am going practice what you've told me for now will let you know how i get on
Michael
This thread is gold for all Omaha newbies. And I can personally vouch that Talon (Colin) is more than happy to impart his wisdom.
Ask, and ye shall receive!