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Over the last week ive lost to quite a few rivered flushes, where i have bet big on every street but they got there by refusing to fold.
That isnt the software, thats the player wanting to hit without the right price to do so.
Oynutter: I like that you've thought out of the box to try and rationalise something that you also see. But I think your reaching bud. If someone slow plays a big hand against me i dont perceive it as a bad beat, merely that I was out played and I respect it.
The kind of hands that are mainly being highlighted are the river two outers, Quads vs sets and the magic runner runners. Also the boards that based on odds/implied odds you'd be very slow to release. For me, I dont see how slow playing a hand would really negate these, because even if a hand were to be slow played, your still not putting your money in post without the redraw, nor does it account for runner runner madness.
It was more about the players on other sites making the same arguments people on this site are making.
Your saying that the other sites are more realistic. So do you believe that you are right about sky poker, but those making the same statements about other sites are wrong?
On one hand your totally right. But on the other: your giving your opponent the totally wrong price to call but they ambitiously do so. So even this should account for itself. So saying there are more outdraws at lower stakes shouldnt exactly be so, as when they hit the river 1/5 (9x2.2 at the turn) refusing to fold, the 4/5 when they dont catch should make it very profitable, no? Again %'s dont change.
So even the lower stakes outdraw theory doesnt really hold, as your premium % plays should still have you dominating over sample size.
What you are saying is proven by Irishrovers stats, he is seeing more out draws but still making profit.
I wasnt really talking about profit. I was drawing attention to the fact that the 1/5 should be corrected by the 4/5, the 4/5 incorporating and discounting the low level bad beat perception, which it doesnt. Oynutter asked for what people thought and that was my answer.
Regardless of level, competency, ambition, money value, we shouldnt see the boards that are seen at the frequency that we do. Someone can make bad calls all day long. It doesnt effect the % outcome. They will just experience the variance of getting their money in bad and hitting their outs supposedly on occasion. But the opposite doesnt hold true. Somebody putting their money in good (i mean 80%+ good) should hold AT LEAST 80% of the time, leading to exponential winnings. Not classic beats over and over. As Elsa says....... Rinse and Wash.. Rinse and Wash
I hear what your saying. The other day I flopped a set of A's on a Ad8c9c board, bet heavily to the turn then check folded when the 3c binked the river, guy shows 10Jc. Even hands such as these make sense to me, as I would likely play my opponents hand similar. Poker is poker and sometimes this means making very hard folds, infact I find that the old saying of "preventing the loss of a big pot is more important than winning one".
But how do you make this distinction online when so many hands are coolers? Or when you put youre money in with the nuts and insanity happens far too often?
I'm going to think more on your perspective and see how it turns out. But in the short term: I play live ALOT. Its all pretty standard. I fully acknowledge that it is far easy to click a mouse than physically handling chips, that we dont have as much time to get a feel for our opponents range or time to think things through as much. Nor to we tend to give people as much credit online. These are all elements that go into the general looser/hyper aggressive game of online play. But it still doesnt account for the regularity of the low percentage winning hands we see. 4%-!7% are still 4%-!7% no matter how often we see them, no matter how badly your table plays, or your opponent plays. I am aware that 17% is approaching the 1/5 mark, but I could reel off many <1% hands that just leave me speechless.
Either way, nice to speak to someone looking for an answer instead of just repeating all the easy industry answers.
Oh one thing to add, you mention that people started slow playing hands like AK, JJ QQ. To me, that is the standard of poker improving. In the sense that poker shouldnt be just a jam fest. As people experience the crippling all in variance (I believe) they like to leave themselves room to play post flop
I dont understand the context of this or who its directed to...?
But just to put it out there, if you can isolate your hand against one player, or your very strong multi way, there's nothing wrong with slow playing a hand. For people to feel that it is ultimately so deadly is online poker at work.
Again, in full agreement.
How often do you see it online? The difference is simply staggering.
Yes I agree, It would be very bad play to slow play any hand pre flop 5 handed. As I mentioned earlier, if you've isolated your hand, or allowed your opponent to isolate your hand for you, then there is nothing wrong with the slow play. It shouldnt be the death trap it appears online.
If there is no raise and it goes to the flop 5/6 handed I am more than happy to check fold my hand on a wet board. But yes I would never like my hand if I let that many random hands in that cheap.
You dont have to expose your hand either. As long as the initial raise isnt called in multiple spots he protects and conceals your hand for you.
I doubt i'd ever do it late in a tourney though
LIPPY Small blind £1.00 £1.00 £150.20 phil12uk Big blind £2.00 £3.00 £168.10 Your hole cards J 10 RUNITSRANN Fold Stuporman Fold MonkeyF Raise £6.00 £9.00 £205.25 Sharksbite Fold LIPPY Fold phil12uk Raise £20.00 £29.00 £148.10 MonkeyF Call £16.00 £45.00 £189.25 Flop Q 9 K phil12uk Bet £22.50 £67.50 £125.60 MonkeyF Call £22.50 £90.00 £166.75 Turn Q phil12uk Check MonkeyF Bet £90.00 £180.00 £76.75 phil12uk All-in £125.60 £305.60 £0.00 MonkeyF Call £35.60 £341.20 £41.15 phil12uk Show J 10 MonkeyF Show 10 Q River 7 phil12uk Win Straight to the King £339.40