"Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary"

DOHHHHHHH

Belated HNY all!

No updates thus far, as not much poker stuff has happened. 

Having seen the sng promo I expected the action to be really good in the HU sngs, but it just turned out to be people 6+ tabling £21 Hypers v eachother all day. 

The HU formats I play now aren't even included, and with the Hyper TSP games being highlighted at the top of the lobby and 10+ open to register at once, it's proved impossible to get action in the turbos. 

I was sat waiting at a £10.50 speed, £10.50 turbo and a £5.25 turbo for 30 minutes during peak time at one point without getting a game  

So with the HU sngs being out of comission (hopefully only until the end of Jan) I had to go looking for another soft format which I'd be able to play in the evening part of the grind. 

As has happened many times before I 'fell' into PLO cash. 

It's a weird game, because the variance is so high that it's tough to know if you're playing well or not as a noob. 

Results probably mean less in this format than most others, because I'd imagine you can play awful and still win over a long period of time. Likewise you can play well and lose for ages. 

So although my results have been good, I don't really know how good I am. I'm not sure if I love or hate that about PLO. 

I'm often sat at a few tables of 25plo thinking I've got the beating of the games at this level, and with abit of study I could crush and move up fairly easily. 

But then I look over HHs the next day and it looks like I'm just getting lucky in alot of big pots. Idk if that's standard or not.

I've been looking for some free material to try and get better, as I'll be playing alot more of it at least for the rest of this month. Books/articles aren't for me, if anyone knows where I can find some PLO strategy videos I'd be very greatful if you could post the links or pm me.

I hope you've all had promising starts to 2015 on the felt. 

Good luck over the weekend. http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/12451402_E48549D36D

Glenelg

In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary":

Belated HNY all! .thinking I've got the beating of the games at this level, and with abit of study I could crush and move up fairly easily.  But then I look over HHs the next day and it looks like I'm just getting lucky in alot of big pots. Idk if that's standard or not. I've been looking for some free material to try and get better, .
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Pretty much SNAFU!  ;-))

GELDY

you've seen this?

http://poker.srv.ualberta.ca

TeddyBloat

In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary":

you've seen this? http://poker.srv.ualberta.ca
Posted by GELDY

Pretty cool that they have claimed to have solved hu limit.

One funny quirk of poker being 'solved' is that even though the bot is unbeatable and no player could do better v the bot than the bot could do v itself,  put the bot v a fish and there are MANY players who would have a much bigger edge v that fish than the bot.

Solving no limit deep stacked poker would be a much more diffucult task by many orders of magnitude.

F_Ivanovic

I've mostly taught myself PLO but there was a really brilliant article/video online for PLO that was really good. Not sure if I can recall where it is though  

I thought PLO was high variance but hyper HU are on a different planet. I may have started off a bit rusty but that doesn't account for how bad I was running under -ev yesterday! Every time I shipped a small pair and got called by Ace rag or K rag they were always hitting - conversely when it was the opponent shipping with a small pair they'd always flop a set. Did have one beauty today though - A7s vs 33 AIPF. They flop a set and I hit a pair of 7's. Manage to hit quad 7s by the river!!

Really enjoying trying out this format though! 

GSmith13

In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary":

I've mostly taught myself PLO but there was a really brilliant article/video online for PLO that was really good. Not sure if I can recall where it is though   I thought PLO was high variance but hyper HU are on a different planet. I may have started off a bit rusty but that doesn't account for how bad I was running under -ev yesterday! Every time I shipped a small pair and got called by Ace rag or K rag they were always hitting - conversely when it was the opponent shipping with a small pair they'd always flop a set. Did have one beauty today though - A7s vs 33 AIPF. They flop a set and I hit a pair of 7's. Manage to hit quad 7s by the river!! Really enjoying trying out this format though! 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Yes I remember that Hand quite well! GL with this week on the sit and go leaderboard, i have decided that its pointless me and you going crazy this week, as we have both surpassed 20k points by now, and at this rate we would get around 75k+ at the end of the week, which is crazy when last week only 34k was needed to win. Therefore im gonna wait till next week for my grind, and hopefully will see you at the UKPC.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary":

In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary" : Yes I remember that Hand quite well! GL with this week on the sit and go leaderboard, i have decided that its pointless me and you going crazy this week, as we have both surpassed 20k points by now, and at this rate we would get around 75k+ at the end of the week, which is crazy when last week only 34k was needed to win. Therefore im gonna wait till next week for my grind, and hopefully will see you at the UKPC.
Posted by GSmith13

20k?! Was on 9k after the first day so doubt I'd have managed 11k points today.

Yeah first week the volume was poor compared to this week lol. Not sure if/when Alvez is going to go for it... guessing he might wait till the last week so yeah next week would be a good shout. Yup, hopefully Still 5 more days grinding to go! Hopefully I'll have it locked up with a day to spare :P

DOHHHHHHH

Long session on Saturday/Sunday morning.

It was like the old days, up half the night donking off on the cash tables, playing 1 but seeing 3, only this time I was playing 4 cards and seeing 12!

I normally forget all the hands I play in a session the next day unless something really good or bad happens. Normally bad.

3 hands stand out from my Saturday session, for different reasons.

First one is nlhe. I thought this was a pretty cool call down. 


The Good. 

SCW018 posts small blind [$150]
kdr05 posts big blind [$300]

** Dealing down cards **

Dealt to DOHHHHHHH24 [ Kd, Tc ]
LazyLckyFish folds hussle4la folds
thedrumkit folds Richard1811 folds
DOHHHHHHH24 raises [$611]
PokarSter folds jiZYo folds SCW018 calls [$461]
kdr05 calls [$311]

** Dealing flop ** [ Qh, Jh, 8s ]

SCW018 checks
kdr05 bets [$300]
DOHHHHHHH24 calls [$300]
SCW018 folds

** Dealing turn ** [ Qc ]

kdr05 bets [$600]
DOHHHHHHH24 calls [$600]

** Dealing river ** [ 7s ]

kdr05 bets [$1,500]
DOHHHHHHH24 calls [$1,500]

** Summary **
kdr05 shows [ 2h, 9s ]
DOHHHHHHH24 shows [ Kd, Tc ]

DOHHHHHHH24 collected [ $6,993 ]


It's nice when something like this comes off.

The opponent is playing (calling) a lot of hands pre flop. The flop has a lot of draws, and a 'donk' bet is typically pretty weak. There's hearts, 9x, Tx that make up a lot of his donking range,  as well as a significant amount weak Qx and Jx hands and occasionally some 8x.

On the turn I don't think that range changes too much.

Of course the 2nd Q makes it less likely he has Qx. So his range is now more 2nd pair and draw heavy than on the flop due to 'combos' of Qx being taken away.

I've got good equity whatever he has, as well as position and the bet size is really small on flop and turn so it's a no brainer call down so far.

I miss on the river, but so do all the other draws.

His sizing is pretty interesting, he leads into me for just over a third of the pot iirc.

I'm going to make the assumption that he doesn't have Qx. There's 2 on the board, which makes it tough to have one anyway, but to bet so small on all 3 streets isn't something I'd expect from a loose passive 'fun' player with top trips. He'd probably consider all Qx hands to be the nuts here and bet close to pot, if not on the turn then definitely the river. 

I'd expect him to show up with Jx a fair amount of the time although I still have doubts though about whether a fun player like this would value bet 2nd pair 3 times in a spot like this.

I thought 88/9T would be unlikely because I'd expect bigger sizing's on every street, so it left me thinking I was up against a range of Jx, missed hearts and missed straight draws.

The price I'm getting means I don't have to be good very often, and I think he has more than enough missed draws to make this a fairly easy (?) call, given I beat all the missed draws apart from Axhh, A9 and AT. 

It was nice to be right for once!

The Bad


All downhill from here.

I signed up to runitonce 'essential' on Saturday morning and squeezed a vid in before the session.

It suggested to me that I was under-estimating the value of backdoor draws in plo. It's something I tried to work on in the late night plo cash session and not just snap give up when it looks like I've totally missed the flop.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
DOHHHHHHH	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£156.17
IDONKCALLU	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£24.44
	Your hole cards	Q 6 9 10
chrisbhoy	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£19.80
pappa1949	Raise		£0.90	£1.40	£34.94
zozo1115	Fold
loulou63	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£2.30	£3.70	£153.87
IDONKCALLU	Fold
chrisbhoy	Raise		£8.10	£11.80	£11.70
pappa1949	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£5.90	£17.70	£147.97
Flop
		J 4 5
DOHHHHHHH	Check
chrisbhoy	All-in		£11.70	£29.40	£0.00
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£11.70	£41.10	£136.27
DOHHHHHHH	Show	Q 6 9 10
chrisbhoy	Show	A 6 5 A
Turn
		2
River
		10
chrisbhoy	Win	Pair of Aces	£39.30		£39.30

Think I took it abit too far on this occasion!!!!!

The very very Ugly

No write up required here. (I was bluffing with the blocker to the 1 flush he could have that he might fold. wp me)

2.30am. Says it all.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
zozo1115	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£24.67
DOHHHHHHH	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£131.67
	Your hole cards	8 K K J
IDONKCALLU	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£26.93
sb1991	Fold
pappa1949	Call		£0.60	£1.50	£40.67
zozo1115	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£0.40	£1.90	£131.27
Flop
		10 2 5
DOHHHHHHH	Check
IDONKCALLU	Bet		£1.20	£3.10	£25.73
pappa1949	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£3.00	£6.10	£128.27
IDONKCALLU	Raise		£5.60	£11.70	£20.13
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£7.60	£19.30	£120.67
IDONKCALLU	Call		£3.80	£23.10	£16.33
Turn
		5
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£23.10	£46.20	£97.57
IDONKCALLU	All-in		£16.33	£62.53	£0.00
DOHHHHHHH	Unmatched bet		£6.77	£55.76	£104.34
DOHHHHHHH	Show	8 K K J
IDONKCALLU	Show	9 10 Q A
River
		4
IDONKCALLU	Win	Flush to the Ace	£53.96		£53.96

More of the same today

Phantom66

Not a big fan of your aggressive preflop play with those PLO starting hands especially oop.

OK so we dont have to nit up and only bet strong AAKx ds kind of hands but the 6c really weakens your first hand as it connects with nothing except the Qc for a possible 3rd highest flush. 

The KKJ8 rainbow is a pretty poor hand - maybe worth isolating 1 opponent who you can bluff against - or set mining in a passive game, otherwise how often does that hand play well enough post flop to make you money?

PLO is a drawing game and so (multiple) nut drawing hands and position are so valuable.

PS good call on the nlhe hand - see a lot of that sort of play in low level SNGs and have started making profitable "hero" calls in similar spots now. 

DOHHHHHHH

Hi phantom, thanks for the post. 

I'm pretty new to the game, and I'm trying to develop as fast as possible, which inevitably means I'm going to play some hands very very poorly. 

Obviously post flop is a shambles in both hands, but the comments about pre flop are interesting. 

The Q6cc 9Thh hand is one I really wanted to play. The problem is both of my flush draws are non-nutted, so playing it multi way out of position isn't something I felt would be easy to do? 

I thought it would be an easier and more profitable hand to play if I got it heads up and had the initiative rather than being 3way out of position as the non-aggressor?

I didn't have a read on chrisdbhoy at the time, but I guess it makes sense for him to limp some of his bad AAxx utg hoping for some big action behind to backraise, or to get a good price to set mine multi way. But even when he back 4bets his hand is face up and I can easily call with my hand against what is almost always AAxx, and therefore being 4bet isn't that much of a concern?

The KK is meh. 

I have to set mine with it right? Getting such a good price in the big blind and closing the action, I feel anything other than a call here would be horrific? 

Having said that, if I'm going to go crackers post flop then maybe I should just fold. Or stand. Or self exclude or something.

IDCU is a mate of mine, it was just a comedy levelling war type thing where only one of us was levelling!

-----------------

I have a feeling you wont like alot of what you do as I will continue to play a very aggressive game pre and post flop. 

This idea about it being a 'drawing game' isn't something I like to buy into too much. The comment itself implies that the game is all about hands, and cards, reading our hand and the board but I'm much more into playing the players and forcing them to make mistakes rather than focussing too much on my hand and the board. 

The good thing about PLO is that I'm rarely going to be that far behind, and if I push people hard and put them in awkward spots I'm going to make life really difficult for them. If they make the right play and see through me, there's the 2nd obsticle for them to overcome which is fading the pot equity I have in the hand. 

It's early days and there's lots of fine tuning to be done but it's a style I'm going to stick with for now. 

I'm going to be posting more PLO stuff and would really appreciate your input. Even though we probably play differently I'm sure alot of the basic fundementals will be the same and it's stuff I need alot of help with! 

Thanks for posting. 

Phantom66

Hi Doh

I am not really a PLO expert - I have studied it quite a bit and played recreationally - I am now playing PLO8 for 4 card action again purely recreationally.

I fully accept that it isnt just about the cards. It generally is a "drawing game" - which in turn means you can create havoc by being aggro against players who are only drawing and only getting aggro themselves with the nuts or multiple draws to nuts. Tight Players are ridiculously exploitable post flop especially HU. Good players will adjust though and you will quickly lose your bluffing edge post flop. 

Generally we just dont want to be multiway postflop with puke starting hands and definitely not oop.

On reflection....

Hand 1 I see what you are saying about trying to isolate - I am not sure entering a limp + raised pot from the sb is ever going to be +ev, but you may as well try and take the initiative and get heads up if you can. After the pot r/r I am binning tbh as by calling you have bloated the pot, lost the initiative, know you are behind pre and wont have many nut options post and are oop. 

Ok to set mine hand 2 - bear in mind you can flop the nuts and still be a massive dog in PLO. I dont think I need to add to the post flop critique? 

Happy to share thoughts with anyone who wants a debate - I learn more from being at least challenged and certainly when proved wrong with my own thinking. These discussions are always 2 way streets.

DOHHHHHHH

Small wins on both sites yesterday.

Just got a hand I want to put up, as it's a spot I seem to be getting into trouble with quite abit.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
TRINI	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£17.53
castatroy	Sitout
4Bolton	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£7.65
	Your hole cards	A 8 Q A
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£16.45
Pablo395	Fold
bluffulot6	Call		£0.60	£1.50	£17.82
TRINI	Fold
4Bolton	Call		£0.40	£1.90	£7.25
Flop
		A 5 J
4Bolton	Check
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£1.20	£3.10	£15.25
bluffulot6	Call		£1.20	£4.30	£16.62
4Bolton	Call		£1.20	£5.50	£6.05
Turn
		10
4Bolton	Check
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£3.60	£9.10	£11.65
bluffulot6	Raise		£16.30	£25.40	£0.32
4Bolton	Fold
DOHHHHHHH

It's not so much the decision now that's the problem, I believe I have to call it off right?

But am I right to bet the turn in the first place, given that we're 3 ways and KQxx is going to be a reasonable part of opponents ranges?

Phantom66

Hmmm a few more hands like that and you might start believing its a drawing game Dohh.

Not a 4 way connected hand again - Not saying dont open with AA(Q8) but beware of its limitations especially 3 way. You flopped the nuts but hard to improve - your hand would be so much better with 2 broadways to match the AA or at the very least double suited with hearts in this case. Dream time in PLO is the nuts AND draw(s) to more nuts albeit harder to find a customer. 

Tight (most) PLO regs will only look to play classic 4cards that all work together e.g. 1 pair and 2 adjacent cards double suited or 4 adjacent cards double suited. At least one A and all broadway is dreamland but then hands like (78)(89) can also play very well if they connect in a multiway pot. 

back to the hand...

Personally I would pot the flop as you have the nuts so make the most of it but on the turn I would slow down.

As played the fact you have the FH outs covered means you probably do have to call, the implied odds are great for you if the board pairs (quads excepted). Not just KQxx interested here. There are all the of JJxx=/TTxx/JTxx combos and especially 2 hearted ones that are liking the flop and/or the turn. With KQ combos now having the nuts you are quite likely to be behind to 1 of your opponents. But you could be facing someone with a lot of outs for the str8/flush combined with 2 pair or a set.  Or maybe they just read your above hands/watched you for a few orbits and are bluffing you

Having said all that about classic ranges etc - witness what happened on the PLO8 tables (Tikays diary) when new players (e.g. Geldy) came in playing aggro with wide ranges - carnage for a while. Adjustments have been made by some. Easier to be aggro and get away with it in dym format though. Why dont you give them a go? 

F_Ivanovic

Phantom unfortunately the premium hands in PLO do not come around very often at all - if you only waited for AAJTds (and similar strength AA) premium KK like KKQJds or KKQQds and then DS rundowns you aren't going to be playing many hands at all - it's equivalent to just playing AKs, QQ+ in Holdem. 

AAQ8ss is more than strong enough to open. Flop I agree with you I would definitely be betting bigger and at least 80% pot. Turn is a bit ugly but could have been worse and there's only 1 straight that got there (and we hold a Q blocker) HU it's a clear bet but 3 way I'm not sure. Think it's still a bet. OFC a lot of it depends on how wide ranges are pre. Vs tight villains I'm checking but loose villains are just going to have so much worse that not betting would be a mistake.

As played, it's actually a fold if we think villain only has KQ. We need 33.6% equity and only have 27%. But ofc we'd need really dead cert reads to know that for sure. If he has any other hand in his range then we have the right equity and folding could become a big mistake.

Glenelg

JJ - if ya don't flop a FH .....fold!  ;-))

Phantom66

In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary":

Phantom unfortunately the premium hands in PLO do not come around very often at all - if you only waited for AAJTds (and similar strength AA) premium KK like KKQJds or KKQQds and then DS rundowns you aren't going to be playing many hands at all - it's equivalent to just playing AKs, QQ+ in Holdem.  AAQ8ss is more than strong enough to open. Flop I agree with you I would definitely be betting bigger and at least 80% pot. Turn is a bit ugly but could have been worse and there's only 1 straight that got there (and we hold a Q blocker) HU it's a clear bet but 3 way I'm not sure. Think it's still a bet. OFC a lot of it depends on how wide ranges are pre. Vs tight villains I'm checking but loose villains are just going to have so much worse that not betting would be a mistake. As played, it's actually a fold if we think villain only has KQ. We need 33.6% equity and only have 27%. But ofc we'd need really dead cert reads to know that for sure. If he has any other hand in his range then we have the right equity and folding could become a big mistake.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Wasnt saying dont open - I would open - top pair one str8 connector and 1 suit connector is good to go.  It just shows how quickly nut hands can get devalued in PLO especially multi handed. You can lead out with the nuts in some situations and know you making a solid fold by the time the action is back on you if you have 0 redraws and the action has been heavy. 4 connected cards greatly increases the chances of having good made hands and good draws not just one or the other.

Appreciate its a fold if we assume its KQ and thanks for the calcs. I just think the possibility is that there are paired/set + flush draw combos that could have r/r us.  Also the implied odds of FH over FH are greater than reverse odds of us hitting FH and villain quads which edges me to be ok with the call. 

Some players that r/r is a snap fold and especially a tight solid reg - I just think the way Doh appears to be playing post flop (small sample maybe he is just throwing forum readers off scent) people could easily be playing aggro back at him and in this hand he has plenty of equity to see another card.

DOHHHHHHH

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not sure how often I see hands other than KQ here. My limited experience so far suggests people are really passive with non-nut hands and just play the nuts face up. It certainly 'felt' like KQ in game.

But you guys will have way more hands than me, and as you say he doesn't need to have worse very often at all to make it fine to go all in.

For what it's worth (and that's not very much) he did have KQ. It was the only pot above £8 that I lost in a 3 hour 1 tabling session. I don't know if that's a good thing, I should be having bigger swings than that?

Maybe I'm playing too tight !!!

------------
Got another one here, smaller pot this time. 

Is this a clear bet/bet/bet line?

The table is HU, just trying to get a game going.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Pablo395	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£42.51
DOHHHHHHH	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£25.55
	Your hole cards	9 10 2 10
Pablo395	Call		£0.10	£0.40	£42.41
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£0.40	£0.80	£25.15
Pablo395	Call		£0.40	£1.20	£42.01
Flop
		7 8 3
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£1.00	£2.20	£24.15
Pablo395	Call		£1.00	£3.20	£41.01
Turn
		K
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£2.00	£5.20	£22.15
Pablo395	Call		£2.00	£7.20	£39.01
River
		2
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£4.00	£11.20	£18.15
Pablo395	Call		£4.00	£15.20	£35.01
DOHHHHHHH

I have all the draws, but as it's a drawing game ( :P ) he has plenty too.

My perception of the player pool is that they'll be aggressive with made hands, so I'm not worried about him having a monster hand. By the time we get to the river think he has weak 1/2p hands and draws that bricked.

At first I thought I just have to bet enough to fold out his missed draws.

But that's stupid because I forgot about my pair of tens which beat all missed draws!

So I think the main mistake is my river bet sizing?

I need to go bigger to force him off Kx and 2pairs as well as folding out his air right?

Or is it all just a big multi street mess?

----

Does anyone know if you can look back on hands on 888 poker?

I'll have loads of better spots to post if I can access them due to more tables running.

Cheerz.

Phantom66

"I'm not sure how often I see hands other than KQ here. My limited experience so far suggests people are really passive with non-nut hands and just play the nuts face up. It certainly 'felt' like KQ in game. "

That's why I said against tight regs its a fold - they generally have it when they take off - and its the way most regs play. Selected post flop bluffing can therefore be profitable AND you have to think that your opponent could put you on say top 2 the way you have bet and can represent the straight. Definitely player dependent whether they think they could play that way. Although bluffing/repping is alot easier HU post flop so less likely 3 handed.

My gut feel was the numbers were closer than Ivan posted so I may have led you astray on that one. Just depends on how often you think they may not have it + the added equity of possibly hitting the over FH.

New hand...

I would hate to play PLO HU - I have no feel for ranges - I would just be playing small ball and probably be face up against anyone decent. With your style and HU experience could be a good spot for you.

I might go bigger on the turn - we dont like the K but we do like the h. Just doubled the flush outs and we still have the high end of an u/d str8 draw. Full table we dont like having such low flush draws but surely can play them much stronger HU.

River, I dont think you are pushing anyone off a 2 pair hand HU and possibly not even Kx. Not when the draws have so obviously missed. I'd check the river and hope for check back and possibly induce a bluff with your showdown value in the 10's.

DOHHHHHHH

I agree with you about HU phantom, I really have no idea what I'm doing. How I should change my hand selection pre and post flop, how my bluffing frequencies need to change etc. 

But the games don't start unless someone starts them.

Between the HU and 3 handed stage of this table I was £60 down, before we even got to a full ring

--------------

I've found the HH's on 888, but theres no way to paste them over. Will try to type out 1 hand which might have an interesting turn spot. 

It's 12c/25c, and we're deeper than Usual, I start the hand with $85, opponent has $41.

I'm utg 6 handed and open Ah Js Th 9h for 75c.

Folds to the big blind who 3bets to $2.37 (pot)

I call. Pot going to the flop is $4.62.

Flop is Qs Jh 7h

Opponent cbets $2.43 (half pot)

I raise to $8.50 total. 

Opponent calls. 

Pot going into the turn is $21. Opponent has $30 left, I cover him.

Turn is the Ad.

Opponent checks to me.

Board now reads Qs Jh 7h Ad. The pot is $21 and we have $30 left effectively. 

What's your play here? 

Phantom66

on balance I'd probably half pot and fold to a r/r - happy if they fold or call tbh but would have to respect the r/r.

Think pot is bad as we get rid of a lot of customers we want to keep in and are pretty much committed to calling a r/r if we get the unwanted answer that we are behind.

I would only check if I had seen them trap with nut hands before or felt we were only getting more money from them by inducing a bluff or them hitting a lower flush.

shakinaces

The 4 card game still goes way over my head (I'm one of those ultra nit face-up players mentioned a few posts ago) but really enjoying reading the hand discussions over the last few days.

Re: the last one, am I right that OOP 3bets are likely to include decent AA/KK a large amount of time?  Both would figure to b/c flop, especially if they had a T, so by the turn could either have a made straight (KKTx) or top set (AAxx, possibly with extra gutshot draw AATx).

With both those beating us at this point (I think AAxx is, can't guarantee I'm calculating odds correctly!), does that make it worth checking to try and realise our equity? It doesn't feel like top set would necessarily fold unless we bet large, but then as Phantom says that just sucks when KTxx snaps us off.

Wish that the micro cash would run more often on Sky and I could have a bit more of a crack at the game!

Phantom66

Inspirational quote from Bluff magazine...

" I’ve talked to some of the biggest winners of online PLO and they tend to agree that they aren’t even really sure what they’re doing. Basically they’re winning because their opponents (successful high stakes cash game players in most cases) are even more clueless than they are."

Hope for us all :-)

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary":

In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary" : Wasnt saying dont open - I would open - top pair one str8 connector and 1 suit connector is good to go.  It just shows how quickly nut hands can get devalued in PLO especially multi handed. You can lead out with the nuts in some situations and know you making a solid fold by the time the action is back on you if you have 0 redraws and the action has been heavy. 4 connected cards greatly increases the chances of having good made hands and good draws not just one or the other. Appreciate its a fold if we assume its KQ and thanks for the calcs. I just think the possibility is that there are paired/set + flush draw combos that could have r/r us.  Also the implied odds of FH over FH are greater than reverse odds of us hitting FH and villain quads which edges me to be ok with the call.  Some players that r/r is a snap fold and especially a tight solid reg - I just think the way Doh appears to be playing post flop (small sample maybe he is just throwing forum readers off scent) people could easily be playing aggro back at him and in this hand he has plenty of equity to see another card.
Posted by Phantom66

Sure, nut hands can quickly go down in value but that's poker! Of course we want to play hands that connect well together but with AA no matter how bad side-cards are we're never folding. Also obv can never fold the nuts on the flop in this situation. Redraws would be nice but we're a clear fave vs any range.

btw, there aren't any implied odds on the turn since villain is pretty much all in! Dohh is right that at these stakes the majority of players are just pretty tight and that this is KQ soooo often. But yeah, it's just a sigh call cause 10% of the time they might have like a set + FD or 2 pair + SD + FD.

HU hand - yeh I know what you mean. Especially if I'm not yet in the groove HU Omaha just can feel like I'm clicking buttons with no idea of what I'm doing! I have got slightly better at it tho, but yeah as with Holdem it requires opening your range up a lot. I wouldn't bluff river - we have worse hands we can bluff with and have some SD value. Villain should never be folding 2 pair and if he happens to have a K he prob shouldn't be folding that either. We could even c/c if villain bets since most villains aren't value betting very thinly.

Last hand you posted: flop raise is pretty standard.I might consider donking flop tho instead of c/r. Turn is pretty clear c/c I think. We have a good bluff-catcher and still have outs to improve if we're behind. Think betting just folds out worse and gets shoved on from hands we're behind against.

DOHHHHHHH

3 weeks since I last posted!

Predictably, and unfortunately that again means poker hasn't been going very well.

Nothing too bad thus far, in fact it's taken the worst 2 sessions so far this year in successive days to trigger me into posting finally.

The end of January was average. Won about $200 including 1st/450 in a $5 freezeout, but then had to take just over a week off when I got a cold again so the month just 'Petered out' into mediocrity.

Left me with no momentum at all going into February, and things haven't improved.

I've been sticking with the grind plan of reg'ing MTTs between 12.30pm and 6pm, then bringing in PLO cash as tables drop.

Both have been rubbish.

I'm on the verge of giving up the PLO again. Since I started trying to improve I seem to have regressed.

I just can't stop paying people off! oiejfoijeficeicifjcjifj

I'm addicted to clicking call. When people never ever bluff!

In holdem I used to call a lot justifying the decision by saying "wow this line makes no sense. It's so hard for them to have the winning hand here. Surely they can't have it AGAIN"

ofc they always do.

Similar thing here, although it's a lot easier for them to 'have it'.

I think my 'run good' has 'run out'.

I'm also bluffing too much, but I don't mind that so much, as I'm still learning to pick the right spots and that will improve if I keep playing.

Couple of examples below.

This one was abit heartbreaking. It was at the very start of my last session. Had doubled up almost first hand, which was a good boost.

To then give it all back and more very soon after just crushed me as I was short on PLO confidence to begin with.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Pin_occhio	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£26.21
tallboy	Big blind		£0.20	£0.40	£19.80
	Your hole cards	5 6 4 7
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£0.60	£1.00	£50.30
Barry12r	Fold
dogcharlie	Fold
babyboy015	Call		£0.60	£1.60	£38.24
Pin_occhio	Fold
tallboy	Fold
Flop
		5 7 9
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£1.20	£2.80	£49.10
babyboy015	Raise		£5.20	£8.00	£33.04
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£4.00	£12.00	£45.10
Turn
		9
DOHHHHHHH	Check
babyboy015	Bet		£6.00	£18.00	£27.04
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£13.60	£31.60	£31.50
babyboy015	Call		£7.60	£39.20	£19.44
River
		J
DOHHHHHHH	All-in		£31.50	£70.70	£0.00
babyboy015	All-in		£19.44	£90.14	£0.00
DOHHHHHHH	Unmatched bet		£12.06	£78.08	£12.06
DOHHHHHHH	Show	5 6 4 7
babyboy015	Show	8 6 6 4
babyboy015	Win	Straight to the 9	£76.28		£76.28

Dunno if it's a really good or really bad call down from villain, but with the board texture as it is, and the stack sizes as they are I felt at the time I could but a tonne of pressure on his likely flopped straight on the flop down the streets, even out of position.

I've got some equity too.

Probably just spew.

-------

Turned AA into a bluff here with the nut blocker.

Probably a big bet sizing error on the turn as I haven't left enough back to bluff the river.

Probably never getting this flush to fold but if I size better I may fold out some weaker flushes and sets?

Horror river shove as played.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
cocky3739	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£36.14
Dorrix	Big blind		£0.20	£0.40	£24.78
	Your hole cards	A 10 5 A
chrisbhoy	Call		£0.20	£0.60	£40.19
Chaffy	Call		£0.20	£0.80	£20.29
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£1.00	£1.80	£19.45
cocky3739	Call		£0.80	£2.60	£35.34
Dorrix	Fold
chrisbhoy	Call		£0.80	£3.40	£39.39
Chaffy	Call		£0.80	£4.20	£19.49
Flop
		Q 6 10
cocky3739	Check
chrisbhoy	Check
Chaffy	Check
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£2.40	£6.60	£17.05
cocky3739	Fold
chrisbhoy	Call		£2.40	£9.00	£36.99
Chaffy	Fold
Turn
		8
chrisbhoy	Check
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£6.60	£15.60	£10.45
chrisbhoy	Call		£6.60	£22.20	£30.39
River
		9
chrisbhoy	Check
DOHHHHHHH	All-in		£10.45	£32.65	£0.00
chrisbhoy	Call		£10.45	£43.10	£19.94
chrisbhoy	Show	6 K 7 7
DOHHHHHHH	Show	A 10 5 A
chrisbhoy	Win	Flush to the King	£41.30		£61.24

There are some more but it's too depressing to go through them all.

Overall around 8 buyins down the last couple of sessions.

Maybe give it 10 more buyins. (Bobthebee likes this! )

.....and try to value bet more and call less!

Easy game in theory.

------------

Skybet price boost today.

I didn't fancy last weeks at all so didn't have a penny on.

It won.

Like the look of todays so going for /> the max.

Apologies Saints fans.

gl all grinding this weekend.

Tikay10

"...Turned AA into a bluff here with the nut blocker....."

Back in the day, when Nits & Old Skool were king, that would have worked, we used to call it the "bare ace trick".

It no longer works - they will mostly call with ANY flush in these games.

Bluffing in PLO is quite unlike bluffing in NLH, imo.  

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary":

"...Turned AA into a bluff here with the nut blocker....." Back in the day, when Nits & Old Skool were king, that would have worked, we used to call it the "bare ace trick". It no longer works - they will mostly call with ANY flush in these games. Bluffing in PLO is quite unlike bluffing in NLH, imo.  
Posted by Tikay10

I disagree - it can and definitely does still work but it depends on lots of things. For one, having a clean image at the time of the bluff usually helps. It also helps to be able to be capable of value betting thinly because any flush becomes a good bluff catcher if we're only value betting nuts or A blocker. Another important thing to note is your pre-flop looseness. If you play tight, you're going to have a lot more nut flushes than A blockers - thus, even if you get caught with an A high bluff it will be profitable for you long run since you'll get value whenever you do have nut flush. If you are looser and always make the A high blocker bluff then you're probably going to be bluffing too much.

Regarding your hands Dohhhh....

1st hand - open is a tad loose but I often make the same mistake of opening it too! CO or BTN I would open but any earlier and we risk it being multi-way too often and it's a hand that just plays really poorly in a SRP and multi-way. I would prob still open it if it was DS but SS I would only start opening the 5678 rundown. Post-flop IMO you made a great bluff but just against the wrong player. Perfect hand to turn into a bluff since we hold blockers to FH and we still have some equity if called with having FD (with SFD too) Also, as I mentioned earlier it helps if you have a clean image - maybe you're bluffing a lot when you shouldn't, so the times you make a credible bluff that "should" work, it doesn't.

Another thing I mentioned above about value-betting is I don't know how thin you are value-betting? The more you thin value bet, the more these bluffs should work - and if they don't, it's OK because we are then making money through our thin value bets. OFC you know this stuff from Holdem, but it's harder to know when to thin value bet in Omaha!

2nd hand - again, seems fine, just ul you ran into the top of their range that wasn't folding. A worse flush esp one without any sort of 2 pair/set backup OTT is folding and on the river you still might get some sets to fold. But yeah, sizing maybe could have been better to maximise river fold equity.

F_Ivanovic

Also 8 BI is nothing in PLO. As I posted on my diary, I lost near 10BI within a couple of hours then made the 10BI back in the next 2 hours! I'd definitely say it's mostly just variance.

Tikay10

Just a quick PS on the "bare ace" theory.

I was playing a 4/5/6 PLO Live Event at The Vic last week, & we saw an all heart flop, Ace high. So, with the button, & everyone checking to me, I tried a variation on it - the bare King trick.

Mr Grumpy Mardy in the SB flatted me. 

No prob, I'll fire again on the Turn, he can't call twice.
 
The Turn card?

The K of hearts. 

WHAT? Worst card in the deck, lol.

Grumpy Mardy Man checks, I check too. I can't bet again.

On the blank river, he bets small & I snap fold.

He shows me the bare Queen.

Marv.
 

F_Ivanovic

How did you try the bare king trick without the king?? lol

Tikay10

In Response to Re: "Sit & DOHHHHHHH Diary":

How did you try the bare king trick without the king?? lol
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Level 3 stuff, that.