Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables

shakinaces

In Response to Re: Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables:

Hi. Hand 1 with the dynamic you describe then I'm 100% squeezing here pre. You easily have the best hand here a lot so get it HU. As played I like a small turn lead. Can get your opponent to jam over sensing weakness and it can confuse your opponent and getting river value.  Hand 2 is totally player dependant. Once we call turn then we have to call this river, looks too bluffy. But I would defo be making a note of what he 3 bet pre with!
Posted by CraigSG1

Thanks for the feedback both.

I'm always a bit 'meh' about 4 betting JJ here. vs the 3 bettor I fold worse / have to 4-bet fold if they shove, not sure how much they will call a 4b with.  And I likely get called by the original raiser who loves to see a flop and then feel spew if/when I see over cards and am oop to a lively player (albeit you kinda have to call down most boards in that spot).

Leading turn does make a lot of sense though. I think I need to do that more with value and bluff hands given the propensity of players (myself included) to be one-and-done on somewhere around 2/3 of flops.

CraigSG1

Hand 1 - my bad. I wrote that from my iphone so completely missed the 3 bet - i thought it was a call by button! So yea, calling here is best for reasons you describe. I would sometime four bet, but that would depend on how BU had been playing his last few hands (tilted/over agg/you folded to an allin few hands ago etc).

Same thing about turn lead though. Betting small is good for like i said - it confuses them and you can get an extra st of value off his worse hands and he can jam thinking your weak. But I also meant to add that by doing this against a reg you can do it in other hands as a cheap bluff as he could put you on a set/v strong hand.

F_Ivanovic

I'm really confused; I've read, double and triple read hand 1 and for the life of me I can't see where the 3b is? It's just a SR pot, so I think 3b to iso is fine. We can flat too because 3b/GII or 3b/fold don't seem too appealing; sort of depends on your image at the table though and if you've been squeezing light or not.

Anyway, flat flop is fine; if villain has a cooler hand then there aren't any turn cards that should slow down the action. I'd also consider leading turn but it's tricky to balance in the first place given your flop line looks pretty strong anyway. Checking is fine too. River I dunno - you already look strong as it is given how you played flop so I'm not sure an overbet is going to help convince villain into a call. I mean what bluffs would you play like this? Are you flatting T9 to flop raise?

2nd hand is WP... open is a bit loose when you have an aggro 3b but it's not terrible. I'm prob folding 22-44 tho. Turn is obv a call and river given his sizing I'm happy to call. He's repping like 8x going for thin value since I don't see this villain checking 9x otf. Or he slow played a set. Either way both pretty unlikely and he can have a ton of picked up FD OTT that bricked river.

CraigSG1

Oh my days! I was right the first time - I glanced the post flop action. Back to my original thought to 100% 3 bet pre.

At 10nl we get tonnes of value from the weak utg player and taking JJ multiway OOP we are basically set mining which I think is too weak with Jacks. My personal opinion. No-one else has us beat so that only leaves UTG with the strongest range but as you have said he is weak player playing 100% of hands he is so unlikely to have us beat and as Ive seen loads before can easily overplay/bluff so many hands allin. 

GELDY

Given your notes a 3bet with the JJ has to be mandatory. Just GII pre if you can as you almost certainly have the best hand. 

shakinaces

Ha ha my bad, am obviously out of practice at reading back over hand histories.

Back to poker school for me

JJ remains a hand I play terribly.

Follow up Q - does it still warrant a 3b when you know that you'll never get folds and will then be facing two people OOP, in an inflated pot, where (if my basic math is accurate) at least one overcard will hit the flop 3/4 of the time.

IP this isn't an issue, I can control the pot far easier, but if I'm getting no fold equity pre, is a more passive line a better option?

Obviously only posting because Forest have fluked back to back victories in the past week. Probably go back in to hibernation after Boro smash us at the weekend.  At least we've managed to stay above Derby for another week...

Still be amazed if we do anything but avoid relegation, but on the face of things it looks like we pulled several rabbits out of hats on deadline day to ease the pain of having to cash in on Antonio.

Hopefully back at the pokers more as I slowly become accustomed to managing a team twice the size I used to at work.  That's what I blame on having mind melt when it comes to try and focus on cards later in the evenings!

shakinaces

This hand made me 'WTF!' out loud last night. Folding for 8p in a £36 pot, good lesson to always shove your whole stack and not try and get funky when you are there to gamble (ps I know my play is poor... Mrs Duck's fault)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
win	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£90.26
x	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£15.09
	Your hole cards	2 2
x	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£7.32
WTF	Raise		£0.90	£1.40	£16.08
x	Call		£0.90	£2.30	£24.11
shakinaces	Call		£0.90	£3.20	£19.10
WIN	Raise		£4.80	£8.00	£85.46
x	Fold
x	Fold
WTF	Raise		£16.00	£24.00	£0.08
x	Fold
shakinaces	Fold
WIN	Call		£12.00	£36.00	£73.46
Flop
		10 10 6
WIN	Bet		£0.20	£36.20	£73.26
Noooooo	Fold
WIN	Muck
WIN	Win		£34.20		£107.46
WIN	Return		£0.20	£1.80	£107.66

Also made me WTF when some guy came and started trolling someone at our tables over their negative sharkscope. I know it goes on, but not seen it before. Was also surprised as the player subject to the taunts I've got tagged as a decent tight reg (having only played them at cash) who must be a winning player at the cash tables.

Very impressed with their dignity in response to such troll though. If all people reacted that way to being goaded the world would be a much better place. Class in the face of idiocy until troll scampers off into hiding again.

Final WTF was my own ability now I've spent a week or so playing NL20-NL40 games.

I am SOOOOO far behind the likes of Liamboi, Th1nkerman, Acegooner and the other better players at that level it's unreal lol. Am somehow scraping a few quid here and there (hands up - I am entirely bumhunting) but bit lost as to where to even start studying to try and lift my own game up to the next level.

Table selection and run good remain my biggest skills for the forseeable!

Phantom66

That fold reminds me of my time playing FL back in the day.

I was on a European site with plenty of scandinavians. The standard play if they had any sort of draw would be to raise/reraise all the way up to the limit each street. So when I realised they always folded to a river bet if they missed - it made for some cheap and effective river bluffs, firstly when I too had missed a draw and then I started trying it just repping 2pair/set and carrying on if no draws came in.

I think I carried the concept of river bluffing into my nl game and it doesn't seem to work as well.

PS isnt table selection key to making money for everyone?

shakinaces

People folded back in the day?

I can remember playing over a decade ago where you could shove AA pre-flop and guarantee to get at least 1 caller, normally with utter guff. Was great for getting max value out of any hands. Some may say that I should play low stakes BH games if I want to have a nostalgic revisiting of that period of online poker

WTF moment of the day - Championship football on a Thursday evening??  World has gone mad.

I bet neutral football fans are signing up to Sky Sports in droves just so that they can be entertained by Huddersfield v Forest on a warm autumnal evening

shakinaces

Although, speaking of 'utter guff', this hand came up just as I was about to give up for the evening yesterday, always a nice bonus to bink when the 'sit out next BB' button is ticked.

Had a confused look on my face when cards flipped over, am too fishy to fold a RF draw but figured to be against Kx Tx or a middle pair... took a while to realise that I didn't even need to hit

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
mattymcd09	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£12.86
cancer2	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£1.35
	Your hole cards	J Q
VINEY73	Fold
Scratville	Fold
xxxxxxx	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£7.87
shakinaces	Raise		£0.40	£0.65	£12.48
mattymcd09	Fold
cancer2	Fold
xxxxxxx	Call		£0.30	£0.95	£7.57
Flop
		10 4 K
xxxxxxx	Check
shakinaces	Bet		£0.50	£1.45	£11.98
xxxxxx	All-in		£7.57	£9.02	£0.00
shakinaces	All-in		£11.98	£21.00	£0.00
shakinaces	Unmatched bet		£4.91	£16.09	£4.91
xxxxxx	Show	Q 8
shakinaces	Show	J Q
Turn
		A
River
		8
shakinaces	Win	Royal Flush	£14.88		£19.79

LmfaoAllin

Nh m8.

Would of been a sickener had turn been a brick with the 8 on the river. definate wtf ; )

shakinaces

I can't help but think that the female members of the Outlaws have been having some influence over my decisions recently...

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
xxxxxxx	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£19.12
shakinaces	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£14.66
fafnir	Sit out
	Your hole cards	2 2
y	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£12.27
z	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£9.38
a	Fold
xxxxxxxx	Call		£0.25	£1.00	£18.87
shakinaces	Call		£0.20	£1.20	£14.46
Flop
		5 5 2
xxxxxxx	Bet		£0.90	£2.10	£17.97
shakinaces	Call		£0.90	£3.00	£13.56
y	Fold
z	Fold
Turn
		4
xxxxxxxx	Bet		£3.00	£6.00	£14.97
shakinaces	Raise		£6.50	£12.50	£7.06
xxxxxxxx	Call		£3.50	£16.00	£11.47
River
		2
xxxxxxx	Check
shakinaces	All-in		£7.06	£23.06	£0.00
xxxxxxx	Call		£7.06	£30.12	£4.41
xxxxxxxx	Show	6 5
shakinaces	Show	2 2
shakinaces	Win	Four 2s	£28.72		£28.72

shakinaces

I take back my moan about Thursday night football temporarily.  Still a stupid decision, but having zero phone signal all weekend while traipsing around in the middle of the Lake District made me appreciate that I was able to watch the Forest game before we set off.

Hate motorway now instead.  Should have been way less than 5 hours trip, took over 9.

And get to do most of it again at an even busier time this Friday in order to get to the Outlaws poker game. Awesome.

Is there some way that we can just concertina up most of the midlands and shrink the country a bit? Love the Lakes, would be ace to be able to visit more frequently. Can't quite get the same outdoor experience in Swindon...

Need to bink super big. Buy a helicopter.

Don't think that will happen from nl20-nl40 cash though, even if I do keep running God like as I have recently.  May need to try and spend some time getting my head around tournies for a change.

Phantom66

Good idea shaky. Nuke the west midlands and move the SW and NW together.

I love the lakes too but it would also good to be able to get to the cotswolds and devon/cornwall without that horror drive.

Phantom66

WP Shaky DTD champ.

shakinaces

Ha cheers Phantom and thanks to you (and the other noisy rabble) for the railing in the later stages.

Didn't think that DTD2 game was ever going to end, never see a game run for so long with such shallow stacks.

Me winning the thing overall reminds me of the old tale about giving an infinite amount of monkeys typewriters and its guaranteed one of them will write the entire works of Shakespeare with their random button bashing. Can't imagine it'll ever be replicated, but always nice to contribute some points to the Outlaws.

Quality to see so many other team-members in the points as well. Fingers crossed we can bink a monthly win one day and break the grip of the pink mob

samantha25

In Response to Re: Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables:

I take back my moan about Thursday night football temporarily.  Still a stupid decision, but having zero phone signal all weekend while traipsing around in the middle of the Lake District made me appreciate that I was able to watch the Forest game before we set off. Hate motorway now instead.  Should have been way less than 5 hours trip, took over 9. And get to do most of it again at an even busier time this Friday in order to get to the Outlaws poker game. Awesome. Is there some way that we can just concertina up most of the midlands and shrink the country a bit? Love the Lakes, would be ace to be able to visit more frequently. Can't quite get the same outdoor experience in Swindon... Need to bink super big. Buy a helicopter. Don't think that will happen from nl20-nl40 cash though, even if I do keep running God like as I have recently.  May need to try and spend some time getting my head around tournies for a change.
Posted by shakinaces

Someone has to carry my shoes!!!

WD on the bink too.

mrsduck

Yes Shakey! Go quacks!!  

shakinaces

In Response to Re: Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables:

In Response to Re: Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables : Someone has to carry my shoes!!! WD on the bink too.
Posted by samantha25

I thought Harry had that responsibility now, normally first to grab for them so that he can totter round in your heels and not look quite so tiny next to Giant.

Jac35

How's the cash going?

Who's going to be your new manager?

shakinaces

Not sure if troll post or not....

I hate football to be honest, next manager is an irrelevance really unless we get the club in a better state off the pitch and have a solid strategy for the manager to aim to deliver on.  The rumour of Martin O'Neill joining after the Euros can't happen (even if he would consider a job in the Championship) given the current set-up.

Cash has gone alright ta.  Whatever Sky are doing lately seems to have brought a more regular inflow of players around the low, low limits I play which has been nice.

Figure I may well have reached my limit though, can't seem to get my head around the next steps up. Almost certainly lack of work rate.  Fair play to those that do print money at the mid stakes levels (50-200) alongside a day job, solid commitment.

I'd start adding hand histories and asking for thoughts on here again, but don't think that's really what people want to see in poker chat.

Darkangel7

Nice to see you back posting shaky, post your hands in your diary. Maybe get some feedback run golden when you do play

shakinaces

Did anybody run good this weekend?  Read diaries from Jac and RLT suffering and I fared no better - all well overdue variance in my case, but odd that so many outlaws seemed to hit the wall at the same time.

Admittedly, the dip in my account was then exacerbated by a call (by me) that made me question whether I'm worse at poker now than I was when I first joined Sky.  WP me.  That certainly won't be a hand I share anywhere.

For any hand-history geeks that do pass by, these are spots (to follow) that maybe leave me less obvious stuff to learn.

shakinaces

Should this be a check any decent proportion of the time, given that I'm pretty much telling people what my cards are after  a cold 4-bet and lead the flop.  Or is the board so wet that I just have to bet 100% of the time and hope to get called by AQ/KQ/KK, FD or maybe a stationey JJ/TT - and just sigh if someone hit a set / straight.

Callers were both recs.  Initial raiser is uber nitty.  Possibly an option to call 3b and hope he squeezes, but didn't really fancy the more likely option of playing OOP 4-way.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
shakinaces	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£19.90
hogsmosh	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£12.30
walks2311	Sit out
	Your hole cards	A A
nit	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£25.40
rec1	Raise		£1.00	£1.90	£11.44
rec2	Call		£1.00	£2.90	£21.44
shakinaces	Raise		£4.40	£7.30	£15.50
hogsmosh	Fold
nit	Fold
rec1	Call		£3.50	£10.80	£7.94
rec2	Call		£3.50	£14.30	£17.94
Flop
		Q 8 9
shakinaces

shakinaces

This another spot that always leaves me head-scratching.

Not sure I should fire 2nd barrel when Q pairs as I probably get nothing to fold which wouldn't have folded flop.  Then realise my mistake and am all set to back down only to hit the river.

Snap check/call?

Lead river for value and fold to a raise?

Accept I'm crushed and 1-pair is not going to be good much of the time?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
supercrazy	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£30.40
Donttelmum	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£19.80
	Your hole cards	A K
QUIGS_RUGB	Fold
sutdog02	Fold
shakinaces	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£22.08
rec - fairly active	Call		£0.60	£1.50	£21.29
supercrazy	Fold
Donttelmum	Call		£0.40	£1.90	£19.40
Flop
		7 Q 8
Donttelmum	Check
shakinaces	Bet		£1.20	£3.10	£20.88
rec - fairly active	Call		£1.20	£4.30	£20.09
Donttelmum	Fold
Turn
		Q
shakinaces	Bet		£2.60	£6.90	£18.28
rec - fairly active	Call		£2.60	£9.50	£17.49
River
		K
shakinaces	Check
rec - fairly active	Bet		£7.13	£16.63	£10.36
shakinaces	????

shakinaces

And a bit of tinfoil hat post....

https://www.pokertube.com/poker-news/poker-business-industry/tartainian-eight-creator-thinks-bots-will-beat-pros-in-three-years

Thought it was an interesting read in light of alleged BOTS having infiltrated Sky games over the past 12 months. While I'm sure plenty of checks are in place to try and block them, there does have to be a point where there could be so many playing on the site that it simply swamps any checks and balances Sky (or any other site) has in place.  Hopefully that time is still a way off though!

Would also be interesting whether you could potentially 1 or 2 table while inputting all info into a separate programme that allows you to make perfect decisions.  Which I assume couldn't even be picked up by Sky (I assume some people already leave decisions to the last second just to avoid timing tells, so the delay while updating software unconnected to Sky in any way wouldn't be an issue).

I suppose that is an issue with most industries and things have to change over time.  As it dawns on me that I still have 30+ years of work ahead of me, I certainly feel more vulnerable in my career (in financial services) and the likelihood of my particular role being disappeared within the next decade.  And may not even have poker (in its current form) to wile away my days while searching for a new job

TENTENTEN

wd mick wp on getting second place in last nights dtd monthly

weecheez1

In Response to Re: Further misadventures of a fish at the cash tables:

And a bit of tinfoil hat post.... https://www.pokertube.com/poker-news/poker-business-industry/tartainian-eight-creator-thinks-bots-will-beat-pros-in-three-years Thought it was an interesting read in light of alleged BOTS having infiltrated Sky games over the past 12 months. While I'm sure plenty of checks are in place to try and block them, there does have to be a point where there could be so many playing on the site that it simply swamps any checks and balances Sky (or any other site) has in place.  Hopefully that time is still a way off though! Would also be interesting whether you could potentially 1 or 2 table while inputting all info into a separate programme that allows you to make perfect decisions.  Which I assume couldn't even be picked up by Sky (I assume some people already leave decisions to the last second just to avoid timing tells, so the delay while updating software unconnected to Sky in any way wouldn't be an issue). I suppose that is an issue with most industries and things have to change over time.  As it dawns on me that I still have 30+ years of work ahead of me, I certainly feel more vulnerable in my career (in financial services) and the likelihood of my particular role being disappeared within the next decade.  And may not even have poker (in its current form) to wile away my days while searching for a new job
Posted by shakinaces

Had a read at this very interesting the thing that makes me think is if you have a guaranteed way of making money like they claim you wouldn't tell a soul and just make money I think the only way they would profit is by people parting with there hard earned cash for a plpe dream 

DOHHHHHHH

Hey shakin, just taking a look at the AK hand.

Our problem otr is we have all the missed flush cards  

Given he can legitimately have all the pretty Qx hands, as well as 77/88 and the only real bluffs he can have are like 56s and 9Ts, or 76hh/79hh if he decides to use them as bluffs, as well as a couple of J or T high flush draws, I think we can comfortably x/f river.  Don't think there are enough bluffs there and obviously no weaker value hands than ours. 

I think I like checking the river as played over bet/folding though.

I don't see much that can call a 3rd barrell that we are ahead of, and it does give us the option of check calling v his smaller sizings when we don't have to be good as often as we do to call this one. He does have some worse hands but again I don't see that many. 

Sometimes they just got the better hand

shakinaces

I love the sheer confusing frustration of poker at times.

Ran OK across tables last night, no grumbles to be had, but overall was totally held back by what I thought was the 'softest' seat I had and a complete inability to avoid losing big pots.

The case for multi-tabling made, I'd have been around 6 BI down if I'd decided just to focus on this one table.

This pretty much summed up the night... and again no grumbles, I got off super cheap that apparently even the abso-nuts is insufficient to warrant ever raising

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
shakinaces	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£10.06
Mornington Crescent	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£10.81
	Your hole cards	K Q
mph57	Fold
BLUCHERBOY	Fold
leslie1953	Fold
shakinaces	Raise		£0.25	£0.40	£9.81
Mornington Crescent	Call		£0.20	£0.60	£10.61
Flop
		Q K 3
shakinaces	Bet		£0.45	£1.05	£9.36
Mornington Crescent	Call		£0.45	£1.50	£10.16
Turn
		10
shakinaces	Bet		£1.13	£2.63	£8.23
Mornington Crescent	Call		£1.13	£3.76	£9.03
River
		6
shakinaces	Bet		£1.88	£5.64	£6.35
Mornington Crescent	Call		£1.88	£7.52	£7.15
shakinaces	Show	K Q
Mornington Crescent	Show	A J
Mornington Crescent	Win	Straight to the Ace	£6.95		£14.10