GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £24 (Cash tables started 15/10/14, 4NL)

TeddyBloat

Gary, there are no winning players at your level. It is impossible to beat the rake long term.

You are better than the players you play against, but you wont beat the rake.

Play for enjoyment, yah. But you wont grow a bankroll playing micro dyms.

Use this info as you see fit.

spinky6108

So you need to win 4 out of 5 60p DYMs to make a profit. I agree with Teddy and Doh impossible even for the best DYM players. 

Move up gary you know it makes sense!

GELDY

i think the nits guide to moving up should focus on win % and not win £.

ie Gary should make the move once he is comfortable he can beat the players in the 60p dyms, not when he can beat the rake which as described is unlikely ever to happen. 

But using these games for training isn't a totally stupid idea as long as winning money at them isn't the objective. 

Lambert180

Can only echo what others said, you'll never win money long-term in these games. It just won't happen.

You can move up a bit but imo just ditch the DYMs and play 4nl. You got 10 BIs and games are so soft you can easy beat the rake. Read Dohhhhs guide to micro cash (ask for a link if u need it). You'll become a better player, you'll win more and you'll enjoy it more (mostly cos you're winning)... Can't imagine anything more soul destroying that playing a game you cannot beat.

GaryLaud

Hi Guys, (Geldy, Doh, S'Aces, Teddy, Spinky).
I totally hear out what has been said, however, I am happy at present playing the 60p DYM's with what is a BETTER bankroll than I've had previously, (Now playing with circa £40-£50 instead of around £10-£20 I had when First starting out)

YES I AM somewhat limited at present in playing the higher staked DYM's £1-£3 games, as my BR isn't as High as I feel I need it to be so that IF I am to commence playing these sort of games, then I feel that another deposit or thrice to double/treble my bankroll would be a sensible idea in order for me to feel somewhat comfortable in playing the games in higher-stakes than what I am playing in at present...

Yes I guess Geldy is indeed correct, I AM kinda using these as training and as I become more comfortable with my form and getting better remarks from those who watch my games (IE Devonfish) then I will eventually drop in £1 games to the mix. FWIW(For What it's worth) TODAY I played a session of 5x60p DYM's and cashed in 3, losing in 2x of them, which gives me a cash/win-rate of 60% for today, better than the running-rate I am achieving at present of 51% SINCE I began monitoring my games following my deposit on August 8th.

I think the be-all of this would be to save-up (I DO have limited financial "Clout" at the moment hence I've only ever depositied once!) and then make a second deposit, increasing my BR and then look at the level I can start with there-in.

I dunno, maybe Oct 8th (2x Months On from my 1st Deposit) would be a good starting point and give me something to work on saving for!?

GaryLaud

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £39.57 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50):

Can only echo what others said, you'll never win money long-term in these games. It just won't happen. You can move up a bit but imo just ditch the DYMs and play 4nl. You got 10 BIs and games are so soft you can easy beat the rake. Read Dohhhhs guide to micro cash (ask for a link if u need it). You'll become a better player, you'll win more and you'll enjoy it more (mostly cos you're winning)... Can't imagine anything more soul destroying that playing a game you cannot beat.
Posted by Lambert180

Hi Lambert.
I'm going to drop you a PM on your thought's here.

Regards
Gary

TeddyBloat

Just do what makes you happy and are comfotable with.

Please dont get disheartened if you dribble money though mate. Take confidence from your play and win %, not your bankroll growth, which will in all likelyhood slowly drop.

Keep enjoying the games,and  run well innit.

The1stOfUs

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £39.57 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50):

Hi Guys, (Geldy, Doh, S'Aces, Teddy, Spinky). I totally hear out what has been said, however, I am happy at present playing the 60p DYM's with what is a BETTER bankroll than I've had previously, (Now playing with circa £40-£50 instead of around £10-£20 I had when First starting out) YES I AM somewhat limited at present in playing the higher staked DYM's £1-£3 games, as my BR isn't as High as I feel I need it to be so that IF I am to commence playing these sort of games, then I feel that another deposit or thrice to double/treble my bankroll would be a sensible idea in order for me to feel somewhat comfortable in playing the games in higher-stakes than what I am playing in at present... Yes I guess Geldy is indeed correct, I AM kinda using these as training and as I become more comfortable with my form and getting better remarks from those who watch my games (IE Devonfish) then I will eventually drop in £1 games to the mix. FWIW(For What it's worth) TODAY I played a session of 5x60p DYM's and cashed in 3, losing in 2x of them, which gives me a cash/win-rate of 60% for today, better than the running-rate I am achieving at present of 51% SINCE I began monitoring my games following my deposit on August 8th. I think the be-all of this would be to save-up (I DO have limited financial "Clout" at the moment hence I've only ever depositied once!) and then make a second deposit, increasing my BR and then look at the level I can start with there-in. I dunno, maybe Oct 8th (2x Months On from my 1st Deposit) would be a good starting point and give me something to work on saving for!?
Posted by GaryLaud

Maybe the thread should leave rake alone just for the min and go in the direction of BRM. Your saying your playing with £50. So divide £50 by £1.15 and thats 43 games in a row you'd have to lose in order to go broke, but as your winning between 51% and 60% of games played, you won't need to worry about that. Plus there are two levels below the 1.15's, the 60p's and the 30p's that you could drop down to and exercise good BRM should you hit a bad run. 

devonfish5

Gary, I did just write out a long post for you but it's not necessary, here's the short version...

continue playing 60p games  60% is achievable use these games as practice.

drop in the odd £1 game here & there, as & when you feel like it.

MAKE NOTES ON THESE £1 PLAYERS.... this is so so so important.

these notes can be the difference between a cash & a failure, it's that simple.

ok, if you don't do this then you will learn the hard way, by them taking your money off you first.

even after you've done this, you could still lose, but you've given yourself the best chance to succeed.

(ALL PLAYERS have betting patterns, even the best players, which can be spotted. the top players use variation as deception though & 'mix things up' making it harder to spot. the lower level players, myself included probably, the £3 & under levels predominately, it's more noticeable...if you look out & watch for it.)

these betting patterns are our passport to success, as they get repeated over & over again, and we can use this to our advantage, in other words this is what gives us part of our our edge, along with playing correctly at the right times also, & makes us winning players,... over time anyway.

that's it, simple. play tight, especially first 2 to 3 levels, play aggressively when you play a hand, play even more aggressively on the bubble, no limping no calling, raise, allin or fold.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £39.57 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50):

5x games at 60p level if you win 3 of them, you end up break even....I don't know whether this is the same at other levels, but I suspect this may be the case
Posted by GaryLaud

Sorry about triggering another rake debate Gary, but the highlighted comment above suggested you still weren't sure about the impact rake has. 

Winning 60% of games at higher levels will give you a healthy ROI. 

Anyway, investing some time and abit of money at 60p games to learn isn't such a bad idea, as long as your expectations are realistic and you don't become disillusioned. 

Best of luck. 

P.S (Post Scriptum) Listen to Dev!! We may disagree about how best to play KK, but at these levels he knows how to get the job done!

Lambert180

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £39.57 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50):

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £39.57 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50) : Hi Lambert. I'm going to drop you a PM on your thought's here. Regards Gary
Posted by GaryLaud

In answer to the question, 4NL = a cash table where the blinds are 2p/4p.

The names are derived from 1 BI for that particular table (or 100xBB to be exact) in £££ and obv NL means No Limit.

So the max BI at 4NL is £4... if 100xBB = £4 then the blind blind is 4p, the small is 2p

Likewise 50NL... 1 BI (100xBB) = £50 therefore the big blind must be 50p so the small is 25p.

=========================================================

I agree that you should do whatever you're enjoying/makes you happy, the only concern is that you don't sound like you're enjoying it. I don't blame you either, like I said, I wouldn't wanna do it. It's one of the first things that attracted me to poker, the idea that sure there's a bit of luck/gamble involved and that's fun, but if you work hard you can win money. This is a slightly exagerated example but still very true imo... what you're doing is the equivelant to me of playing roulette, sometimes you'll win, sometimes you'll lose, but long term you got no hope of winning, and to me there's no fun in knowing you're going to lose

A 60% winrate may be sustainable at these levels, I dunno, depends how bad the standard is, but as you've already shown today, you can have a 60% winrate all you like and you are still going to win literally nothing. Devon's giving you good advice, but all the advice in the world won't change what is physically possible to achieve in terms of winrate. Teddy has already shown graphs of how your winrate showed you to be a profitable player IF you weren't playing games with insanely high rake.

Again it's all down to you, don't be influenced by what others say but at the same time don't think out of stubborness you have to stick to your guns and refuse to make a change (for fear it might be seen as weakness) even though you really want to.

Maybe you should have a think/post up what it is you specifically want from the game. A free/very cheap hobby? A small side income? The chance to join in with some of the bigger events like main events without feeling like you have to deposit to do it?

devonfish5

Just a quick recap for you Gary.

if you play 5 games & win 3 & lose 2  which gives you 60% win rate

at the... 60p level   gives you £0.00 profit    (20% rake)

            £1   level   gives you  £0.25 profit    (15% rake)

            £2  level    gives you  £0.75 profit   (12.5% rake)

            £3  level    gives you £1.50 profit    (10% rake)

            £5  level   gives you  £2.50 profit    (10% rake)

            £11 level  gives you  £5 profit         (10% rake)

so you can see by getting to the £3 level & above, where the rake then becomes 10% just how much more you win & why the top players aim to play there.

ps; sorry for bringing the rake up...again. even getting to the £1 level will prove to be hard to beat, as will the £2 level.

you really do have to get to the £3 level to start to see a good return for you effort, which is why where you are now at the 60p level is just the first step of what will be a long road, (probably 18 months to 2 years minimum would be my best guess), before you become a descent winning player...

of course if this your aim. just thought you should know.

Jac35

I'm a bit concerned that we're just assuming that we will have a 60% winrate. Winning 3 out of 5 games in one session tells us nothing. To establish a true winrate then we need a minimum of a 1000 games,ideally more,  but a 1000 games would be a good indication.

You'll have to excuse how immodest my next point will sound, but it is relevant.

I'm pretty good at Dyms. My ROI is generally better than my opponents. I have played getting on for 9000 Dyms on Sky plus thousands on other sites as well. My winrate is below 60%. 60% is extremely hard to achieve.

I would go broke at 60p Dyms. I know Dev and probably most others will disagree with this but IMO you have a sufficient bankroll to move up right now. You're doing pretty well and Dyms are extremely low variance. In your position I would happily take a punt with 40 odd buy ins.

devonfish5

but his game isn't good enough to move up right now jac, that's why i suggested he stays at the 60p level for practice, adding the odd £1 game here & there.

he tried the £1 level a few weeks ago & went busto in 2 days i think it was.

a £39 b/r gives him 33/34 buy-ins which would last about a week or two at best i'd say, maybe three at a push.

yes, you or I would take the gamble of playing there with those buy-ins, (well i'd have to think about it,obviously   but that's easy to say when you know how to play/win at dym's, Gary at the moment does not & I'm sure would be the first to admit that.

Lambert180

I agree with Jac, if you wanna stick with DYMs, then you deffo got enough to give the £1s a bash. It's not like you're playing a ton of tables or volume so I wouldn't bother with the usual strategy of sticking with your current level (60ps) and adding in some £1s because it defeats the object of playing the higher games because they're beatable. The only way you can beat the game is by playing games that are beatable, as simplistic as that sounds. If the main priority isn't to break even/win money then carry on as you are.

The standard at £1s will be virtually identical to that at 60ps. So even if you aren't good enough to beat £1s, you'd still have a better winrate (smaller loss-rate) because your win % will probably be identical but the rake is lower.

It's like playing £3 DYMs, then flicking in the odd russian roulette, regardless of your results in the £3 games, the little bit on the side (whether it be 60p DYMs or russian roulettes) is always going to be a losing proposition, so ultimately when you're winning at £3s you put a small dent in your profit every time you reg a game that is -EV, and when you're losing at £3s you make your loss even bigger.

In your mind you might trick yourself into thinking well I played a £1 game and lost, but played a 60p game and won so overall I didn't lose too much, but longterm every time you register a 60p, you've lost money before the first hand is even dealt.

Whatever you decide to do, I'd recommend it doesn't include ANY 60p DYMs.

Jac35

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £39.57 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50):

but his game isn't good enough to move up right now jac, that's why i suggested he stays at the 60p level for practice, adding the odd £1 game here & there. he tried the £1 level a few weeks ago & went busto in 2 days i think it was. a £39 b/r gives him 33/34 buy-ins which would last about a week or two at best i'd say, maybe three at a push. yes, you or I would take the gamble of playing there with those buy-ins, (well i'd have to think about it,obviously   but that's easy to say when you know how to play/win at dym's, Gary at the moment does not & I'm sure would be the first to admit that.
Posted by devonfish5

I understand what you're saying Dev but as has been pointed out numerous times before,  Gary will go broke in the end anyway at this level no matter how good he his.

With the greatest of respect to the players in the £1 and £2 games, is the standard really that much higher in these than the 60ps?

shakinaces

FWIW - the plan to learn, accepting a rake-based loss isn't a bad one - but perhaps on that basis it's best to nail the fundamentals at 30p DYMs... the same rake at 60p but you get double the games and stretch your current BR even further.

Then take on other poster's advice to ignore the bankroll and focus on the win %... if you are able to consistently win at close to 60% over 100+ games (which you can easily afford at the 30p level), it should be a reasonable pointer that you must be doing enough right to consider a punt at the £1.15 (or higher) and shift towards thinking more about the financial sides of things.

Run good whichever route you take...

Snuffer

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £39.57 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50):

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £39.57 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50) : I understand what you're saying Dev but as has been pointed out numerous times before,  Gary will go broke in the end anyway at this level no matter how good he his. With the greatest of respect to the players in the £1 and £2 games, is the standard really that much higher in these than the 60ps?
Posted by Jac35

I've played these levels and moved up now and I can honestly say I think the 1 pound games are the same if not weaker but I am in early stages of the step up but feel confident playing them and my BR Is just over £50, I couldn't beat the lower level s because of rake but slowly beating it now, gl Gary.

devonfish5

I see your point jac. no the standard isn't much higher at the £1 level especially, but I am privy to Gary's win rate from  2 sites & from games played,  and without giving too much away, his percentage isn't a winning one, so moving up to the £1 level would be of little use to him right now, other than giving him the practice there, which he needs.

yes, the 60p level will slowly diminish his b/r  if he drops below 60%, but he needs to learn the basics & this is the place to do it,imo.

i've already said he should play the odd £1 game, which he has been doing & i'm sure Gary won't mind me saying this up until a week or so ago his win/loss there was around 5/14 i think from memory, hence part of the the reason his b/r dropped from £50 to £40 appox.

yes, it's a small sample granted, but it was Gary that decided to go back to the 60p level & regroup. since then his b/r has stabilised & I believe he has also got his confidence back & is happy with his decision.

anyway, I'm sure Gary will give his own thoughts/reasons as to what he thinks.

you have to also remember Gary is his own man & will do things 'his way' as he has already mentioned in an earlier post not to long ago.

we can only come here & give our opinions, thoughts, reasons, advice, etc,, can't we.

devonfish5

there are no 30p dym's anymore... only speed/turbo i believe. these games last a max of 12 minutes, having just checked & have a starting stack of 1000 chips compared to 2000 in a normal dym game.

yes, it might be an option for Gary to play these, but would it be the same as playing in the normal dym structure & be of much benefit to him? I'm not sure, as i've never played one, but it might be worth considering.

stuarty117

It would be benefical as i said previously in this thread.

Advantages to play 30p dym turbos

Gary will be able to double the games he plays. eg he played 5 today so he could easilly have played 10.

For this he would have gained 10p and not 5p in rake back. Now this may not sound alot but over a few hundred games it is.

Also the turbos imroves your shove fold game which is the main part of DYMS. i find playing the 5.50s you get to level 789 nearly all the time these levels are the most important stage of dyms. The turbos you learn much quicker how to play the shove fold game.

I played the 30p level for ages and have actually have a 64.9% success rate over 300+ games at dyms 

As i have said before these provided me with the fundementals of DYM strategy.

GaryLaud

Hi stuart
I get what you are saying, But I found with the way I play poker that I was very much a losing player when playing the turbo DYM's and therefore prefer the slower structure of the 60p one's.

How/What/Why/When I will follow up with shortly, so you can see WHY I have taken the steps down the Line I have done, when playing on/With Sky Poker.

Regards
Gary

GaryLaud

Okay - I guess it's time for me to chip in again and summise exactly where I started, and give you guys an idea of my background etc so that you can get an answer to some of the Q's and points raised.

Firstly back in February 2014 (this yr) I had a major life change, and the breakup of a friendship meant I suddenly was faced a significant amount of time to myself!

Previously I had played alot of Poker before, but this was mainly spent on Gaming Consoles such as WSOP games on Playstation and most recent online was spent playing over on PKR for play Money.

In March I registed for Sky Poker and began testing the water playing various styles of games. OBV I entered various MTT's using my welcome bonus but didn't cash as I wasn't (and still aren't) a very good MTT Player.

However, I got given a free-seat into the Tuesday Turbo open and won some £20 which boosted my dwindling BR.

(Now why hasn't Gary deposited you may well ask? Well thing is, I've had limited financial resources to afford a deposit as since December, I have been out of work, and therefore, quite rightly prioritising what precious little income I do have from Benefits on payments due in RL)

By now it was april and I then began experimenting on different game styles, playing a mix of cash & Dym's.

I put in a fair amount hours on the cash tables playing the 2p/4p level, the lowest available on Sky, but got very demoralised indeed, especially when I lucked out on some pretty serious hands and I ended up easily spinning away most of my 4x Buy in's I had left in my BankRoll in a very short space of time.

Around end of may-early June I played in the TOTP which provided the shot in the arm my BR Needed.

It was around THEN I had a change in strategy and ended up playing DYM's enjoying initially the 30p DYM's. Then I tried the odd 60p and found I was better suited to the slower structure, and hence cashing alot more!

However, as I wasn't a very good player and wasn't recording and analysing my play, just doing it for fun my BR slowly dwindled away and I lost a big CHUNK of my BR in one session when I attempted a few £1.15 games having been egged on by a couple of table & forum regulars.

In July, I found some temporary work and started to turn my life around. Away from Poker I had begun a steady & stable relationship with my first proper partner in three/four years (as I had time to properly see my "other half")

I began taking on advice from Devonfish and my game began to stabilise. Then in August, I had been paid from my short term contract work and set about giving Sky Poker a proper "GO" and deposited for the first time.

I then began taking a proper shot at DYM's and started out just as he had, with the 60p Level. Then I felt that once my BR started to increase I would up the ante, and add more & more £1 games until I was winning these as regularly as I do now at 60p.

So what do I want from Sky Poker?

Well, OBV my determination to Build a Bankroll is VERY strong and I want to prove to everyone that I am NOT a weak player, but a successful one, albeit at just DYM's ATM, as I'm no good at cash, and don't play the MTT's regularly enough, and therefore need PRACTICE at these!

Speaking of MTT's I am also planning to re-start playing the Deepstack's on Monday which appear well suited to my game and I would also like to enjoy a BR so that I can register myself for both the main & mini - my best night of the week for this would ideally be a wednesday when the buy-in is cheapest! (I'm at hydrotherapy on Tuesdays) I am not really considering playing any of the B/Hunter tournament's as I struggle to get to grips with both the structure and the aggression level required to play these games.

So ya there we go, a recreational player who enjoys a good fun game, but would also like a shot at the bigger tournaments.

I am ALSO thinking as you have already CLEARLY read, that I should get saving up, make a deposit to my BR and properly take a shot at the lower rake'd DYMs - though what I am currenty surmising is another few week's of practicing at lower levels, and then perhaps make my second deposit on the same-date as I did before - the 8th - though whether I do this on Oct 8th or Nov 8th, I'm not sure as yet!

Sorry for the long text, but I hope this now makes you realise as to why I've taken the route down my Sky-Poker career that I have!!

Regards
Gary

Jac35

Nice post Gary

I'm glad that you took the previous posts in the manner they were intended.

Mine certainly were not meant to be critical of the way you setting about your challenge. Just trying to offer some advice. Everyone wants you to do well and boost that bankroll. 

Keep going

devonfish5

Yeah, great post Gary,

As Jac says we all want you to do well & get that bankroll to grow.

keep at it mate, it will happen sooner or later.

Always go with your gut feeling too, both on & off the tables, as it's usually right.

have a good day today, run good,

dev

hhyftrftdr

Some excellent reading/contribution on here.

Just an aside from me regarding the Wednesday main/mini that you mentioned you'd like to be rolled enough to play weekly. Whilst it might only have a buy in of £11, you really need to treat is as a £33 MTT (one rebuy one add on). Obviously you can just stump up £11 and no more, but you'll be at a huge disadvantage unless you spin up the starting stack quickly. Ditto for the mini, £5.50 but essentially a £16.50 MTT if you want to give yourself the best chance of cashing. It's basically a £50 night. But they are worth playing, they have great structures.

If I can win a Wednesday main then anyone can!

Good luck.

bbMike

I ran a few numbers late last night (so they might be wrong...), assuming a 55% win rate, at 60p you will lose 5p per game on average. At £1.15 you also lose 5p per game on average. Above that and you will make money faster/lose less at the higher stake. 

So... it really comes down to whether 

a) you think you can sustain the same win rate or better at the next level (indications from other players are that they play very similarly in terms of standard, but maybe something is holding you back mentally?).

b) the current BR of £40 is going to last long enough for you to have a proper shot. At 3/4 games a day you'd have run pretty horribly to bust in a couple of weeks, not saying that can't happen though, most players have 'been there done that' in terms of a downward swing.

Most important thing is that you are thinking about your game, and have an eye on table dynamics through the stages. If Dev is helping you out you shouldn't go far wrong.

It's a lovely story for context n all, but backgrounds aren't really any excuse for closing your eyes and ears to salient advice.

Run good out there.

devonfish5

Hi Gary,

it's been a week since your last post, how's it going now?

I know you've been playing some 30p turbos & also some £1 games with some wins, so how's the b/r now?

I've been observing you too, as you know from yesterday, & I can see so much more improvement in your game from just a week or two ago, so well done.

Keep it up mate, you are well on your way now to becoming a winning player, I'm sure of it.

best wishes,

dev

GaryLaud

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £39.57 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50):

Posted by GaryLaud

So, here we go with an update on what I've been upto since my last posting on Sept 18th.

On the 18th, I made a despot of £6 with the intention to experiment around and put in a reasonable sample of 30p turbo DYM's. Here are my results since that deposit playing 30p level.
P 27
W 11
L 16
WR 40.7%
P/L: -£2.60
So I've lost around 43% of my BR playing these games since 18th September, which I think can be agreed, although I'm OK at this turbo format, I've got ALOT to learn with the concept of shove/fold.

GaryLaud

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £42.37 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50):

In Response to Re: GARY L'S BR THREAD BR £39.57 (Starting BR 8th Aug 14 - Aprox £50) : So, here we go with an update on what I've been upto since my last posting on Sept 18th.
Posted by GaryLaud

Next here is news of what I've been doing in the "Standard" DYM's at Microstakes of 60p/£1.15

TOTAL:
P16
W9
L7
P/L -£0.20
WR: %56.25
Somewhat a suprising result in terms of bankroll movement, which appears to have really stabilised in recent days. A very good week, and although I've significantly reduced my volume at 60p Level, the £1'ers are coming along nicely and I'm now cashing/winning my fair share of these.

felt like I Had LOST a fair chunk of £££ today as I'd had a go at a cheap MTT re-buy, although I've just ran the numbers and overall on DYM's I am just 50p behind, NOT including the cheap re-buy.

So very encouraging sign's all around really!