What should I do now?

Tikay10

I've returned, in a small way, to NLH DYM's.

I've played exclusively PLO & PLO8 for some years now, so I'm struggling with many things, including hand ranges, but mostly betting sizes. In Pot Limit games bet sizes are very easy, if in doubt POT. In NLH, it's so very different, & the temptation to shove is often too much to resist.

I'm also lacking confidence in playing down the streets in NLH, unlike Omaha variants where I pretty much know exactly where I am.
 
So, this hand came up, & I'd be interested in what YOU would do, & also what you would do if you were me in this spot. (The latter is a very different thing, as I'm very rusty at NLH).      

Tikay10

It's a £2.25 DYM. The table, not to be rude, looks reasonably soft.

Even with my lack of recent NLH game time, I do actually expect to be able to do OK in this - let's say I'd "win" it 66% of the time, just by sticking to solid DYM principles.
 
We are in Level 1, just started, & I am in the BB.

UTG makes it 100 to go. (10/20, but I already know this guy raises almost every hand pre).
 
The WHOLE TABLE then call. 

So it gets to me in the BB, & there is 520 in the middle. (Starting stack is 2,000). 

We have A-K suited. 

What should I do now, & why?   

VespaPX

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

It's a £2.25 DYM. The table, not to be rude, looks reasonably soft. Even with my lack of recent NLH game time, I do actually expect to be able to do OK in this - let's say I'd "win" it 66% of the time, just by sticking to solid DYM principles.   We are in Level 1, just started, & I am in the BB. UTG makes it 100 to go. (10/20, but I already know this guy raises almost every hand pre).   The WHOLE TABLE then call.  So it gets to me in the BB, & there is 520 in the middle. (Starting stack is 2,000).   We have A-K suited.  What should I do now, & why?    
Posted by Tikay10

Level 1 - i would bin it with 5 already in the pot.

Good chance 2 or 3 will go to war and increases your chances of cashing.

Disclaimer - i haven't played NLH DYM's for years either.

edrich

I'm not loving going all in with AK on level one, on what I am assuming is a loose table. Of course it does depend on if you think you can get it through.

I think I would be tempted to call for 80 into what is now a 600 pot, and reassess after the flop. This could of course get you into a difficult situation if you flop top pair, and you have let in all the two pairs, sets and draws. You could also hit the flop big and make some chips.

Not totally sure,

                     Ed.

Allan23

I can't claim to be any sort of expert but am definitely a winning player and would consider this a ridiculously easy shove given the notes you've mentioned...would love for a dym boss to say otherwise?

unknown_username

Interesting you should post this, I had the pleasure of you at my tables week or so ago, I saw you 3bet shove with 88 I think LVL 1. (Maybe you had a read and I should shut up).

 But i think you should be tighter,  AK isn't something I like multiway unless its dirt  cheap.

Allan23

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Interesting you should post this, I had the pleasure of you at my tables week or so ago, I saw you 3bet shove with 88 I think LVL 1. (Maybe you had a read and I should shut up).  But i think you should be tighter,  AK isn't something I like multiway unless its dirt  cheap.
Posted by mumsie

3 bet shoving with 88 for 50bb against 1 opponent doesn't seem like something I'd do but I may be wrong! There's an "Allanaus23" on here as well - maybe it was him!

unknown_username

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : 3 bet shoving with 88 for 50bb against 1 opponent doesn't seem like something I'd do but I may be wrong! There's an "Allanaus23" on here as well - maybe it was him!
Posted by Allan23

My sincerest apologies. Wrong guy.

Talon

 Interesting hand.

 I think the biggest problem in the hand is actually your whole cards. They look very pretty and can hit really well. But on the other hand it is only ace high.

To me the best way of looking at this hand is to ignore your holding totally. We have a 5x raise utg and then 4 callers. This says to me we have a lot of luck plays going on here. Marginal holdings and hands than can flop well. The sort that lead to extremely funky two pair combos that cant be seen.

 With this in mind i dont think we can feasibly hit the board hard enough to be certain of being ahead on the flop so would require gambling. Not a good situation to be in. So for me that rules out calling.

 So that only leaves shoving or folding.Any other 3-bet size really wouldnt work here.

 This being a dym and the only concern in all hands is chip preservation. The most likely course of action here in my opinion is a fold.

  When there is this much action at this stage early knockouts will happen. Could even end up with one of those lovely situations of cashing without playing a hand. I would even consider just folding every single hand on level 1 from this point and wait and see. You would still have a very playable stack and could easily be in the end game situation

SMARTGOAT

I would see it as a pretty easy call given that the table is soft, post flop i'd try and see a showdown as cheaply as possible if i hit the board, no need to create a big pot if the table seems weak, one mid sized early pot in these games can see you through to the money. Folding here is too tight and raising is too risky as you are forced to fold to a reraise and are likely to be called by a couple of players. Shoving is too much of a gamble given its all about survival.

Tikay10

Thanks for the replies. It's quite interesting, I think.

I'll let the thread sweat for another day or so, then do the "reveal" as to what happened.  

Phantom66

Given ithe context of a dym with a relatively easy field, I am folding. Calling to be out of position with a drawing hand v 5 opponents with any 2 cards doesnt make sense to me.

Think I am only shoving AA KK in that spot.

You will are guaranteed  to be top 3 in chips by folding unless something funky has already happened to stacks or happens in this hand. It is also quite possible that 1 or 2 will bust this hand.

weecheez1

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Given ithe context of a dym with a relatively easy field, I am folding. Calling to be out of position with a drawing hand v 5 opponents with any 2 cards doesnt make sense to me. Think I am only shoving AA KK in that spot. You will are guaranteed  to be top 3 in chips by folding unless something funky has already happened to stacks or happens in this hand. It is also quite possible that 1 or 2 will bust this hand.
Posted by Phantom66

+1

hhyftrftdr

People saying fold pre?!

Knitting is fun.

HENDRIK62

not folding, not calling, not shoving.

hhyftrftdr

I think our table position is an advantage in this spot.

Say we peel (which I think is fine, though it's pretty close with raising) we go 6 way with 600 in the middle. Regardless of what the flop is (if we smash or whiff, and assuming SB checks), it's on original raiser to act. If they cbet into 5 players (which sounds crazy but this is a £2.25 game on Sky) then we're gonna have a good idea of who's potentially strong by the time its on us. It's gonna be tough for someone to conceal a strong hand should a set/2P be lurking.

If we flop something like 2P, TP and NFD or gutshot and NFD then in they go I think. Chip preservation is important but equally if you can accumulate a stack early doors then you often sail into the money.

Wouldn't begrudge a shove pre, though it 'looks like AK' so someone might spin you with TT etc. Would balance this by also shoving AA/KK in this spot sometimes.

Jac35

Fold?

TommyD

This is just a redic easy jam.

The current pot represents a +25% increase of our stack.  The opener can have one of the 6 combos that dominate us but from the experience you have seen, they have a huge amount more.  I very much doubt anyone else has one of these as in level 1 they would in general be more inclined to isolate the opener, unless there has been a ton of squeezing going on.

We'd prefer to just win the pot uncontested, of course we would.  We win then 100% of the time.  But we're not the ones making a mistake here if we jam.  Say one of the callers has 77, and they decide to go flipping.  By them calling off, they are the ones making the mistake saying 'I hope I'm flipping' in a DYM.

We fold out everyone most of the time for a 25% stack gain, we make an oppo make a mistake some of the time and in those spots we are either even money or decently ahead (I've seen K9o call in these spots more than once) and very rarely we are dominated but can always get there.

Just jam, keep it simple, it's never a mistake as the play has been described.

Tikay10

These answers are fascinating, & some are very different.

Would appreciate a few more replies before the rveal.

What is most important, of course, is not the result, win or lose, but what is the correct or optimal play here? 

Allan23

Couldn't agree more TommyD - seems to be a common thing people write "could find a better spot" etc and although it has its merits in DYM's surely it is extremely flawed thinking in this scenario - by shoving we must be prrrintttingg money long term and therefore it must be good?

Lambert180

I've been having a muck around with DYMs again the last few days and I think I'm with Tommy and jamming. If the open had been 60 and then everyone called, I'd be much more inclined to just peel pre because the risk/reward would be a lot worse. Then I'd just play very straight forwardly postflop/only continue if I've hit TP+ and even then keep the pot under control unless we've hit really hard.

Peeling the extra 80 isn't the worst option in the world either but my preferences are jam > peel > fold

SMARTGOAT

If you're a 66% favourite to beat the field I think it is a mistake shoving level 1 with anything other than Aces or Kings. Chip preservation is much more important than the 500 chips in the middle. I find the weaker DYM players are too loose early and too tight late, which is were you can exploit your edge. 

the_buckle

snap shove

chilling

I wouldve just called, only Ace high, then take it from there. Did you pot it?( most unlike you early )This is gonna end in tears me thinks, as i know your feelings on searching HH.

Ive seen busto in plo8 dyms in the very first hand a fair few times.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

If you're a 66% favourite to beat the field I think it is a mistake shoving level 1 with anything other than Aces or Kings. Chip preservation is much more important than the 500 chips in the middle. I find the weaker DYM players are too loose early and too tight late, which is were you can exploit your edge. 
Posted by SMARTGOAT

I should add & explain, in case it sounded conceited or overly chirpy, that it is very rare for me to consider myself a 66% jolly in a NLH DYM. I sort of plucked the number out of the air but it won't be far out.

Over a 22,000 game sample of PLO8 games I'm around 58%, but over a 200 game sample of NLH games in the last few weeks I'm only around 50%. But this DID look a very very soft table.
 
There was nobody of your calibre on the table. Generally, there are 1 or 2 players who I try to avoid banging heads with, but there were none on this occasion.  

Tikay10

So we have several very highly rated & profitable players saying "it is a shove, no question about it".

And several equally esteemed players (+ Hendrick) suggesting either call, or raise.

It seems we all approach this great game of poker so differently. Which is great.  

spinky6108

I'm with smartgoat and Hendrik i'm folding AK level 1 against all those guys calling a raise.

Jac35

I doubt that I'd jam here. We had an edge in this game.

We shove and they all fold. Well, that's the best outcome we can hope for. We add nicely to our stack but we're by no means locked.

We get a call and we're crushed. That's not good. We're out.

We get a call from any pair. This seems the most likely scenario. It's not one i like. I get that we haven't made a mistake but that's irrelevant. We're still flipping at a stage where we don't want to be doing that.

We get a call from hands we dominate, AQ AJ etc. Yeah it will happen from time to time but there will not be enough times that this happens in my view.

I also think the fact he 5xed is very important. When players do this in low stake Dyms I often find its with very strong hands.

Phantom66

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

This is just a redic easy jam. The current pot represents a +25% increase of our stack.  The opener can have one of the 6 combos that dominate us but from the experience you have seen, they have a huge amount more.  I very much doubt anyone else has one of these as in level 1 they would in general be more inclined to isolate the opener, unless there has been a ton of squeezing going on. We'd prefer to just win the pot uncontested, of course we would.  We win then 100% of the time.  But we're not the ones making a mistake here if we jam.  Say one of the callers has 77, and they decide to go flipping.  By them calling off, they are the ones making the mistake saying 'I hope I'm flipping' in a DYM. We fold out everyone most of the time for a 25% stack gain, we make an oppo make a mistake some of the time and in those spots we are either even money or decently ahead (I've seen K9o call in these spots more than once) and very rarely we are dominated but can always get there. Just jam, keep it simple, it's never a mistake as the play has been described.
Posted by TommyD

I would probably agree if it was a £22 dym with a couple of regs at the table.

I would definitely agree if it was a 6 max at any level with any standard of players.

BUT it isn't it's a 2.25 dym with a soft field which is the context that matters most to me.

Why risk a flip or worse at level 1 v a soft field when all we need to do is cash.

The point is too many players are going to call a shove at that level with 77+ and if we know they make those kind of mistakes we can let them knock each other out or find spots to isolate cheaply later.

That shove will not get though enough times at that level to make it correct.

stuarty117

One of the most easy folds your likely to make. 

Quite possible be 4 allins next round of betting

HENDRIK62

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

One of the most easy folds your likely to make.  Quite possible be 4 allins next round of betting
Posted by stuarty117

Really Stu? 

I always admire your discipline at DYM (I try to curb my reckless side, doesn't always work :-)), but surely folding here is too tight.