What should I do now?

Phantom66

^^^ shove pre

as played shove flop

Lambert180

Can't see the stacks but if you have ~2000 or less I prefer a jam (and likewise if either of the other players have those kinda stack sizes). 

How on earth did you fold the flop (no offence lol)? Was it a misclick?

hhyftrftdr

Good fold....various backdoor straight flushes lurking that would render your Ac nut flush obsolete.

jdsallstar

What the hell happened there mumsie? lol shove pre, shove flop....shove something anyway lol

MP33

But i think you should be tighter,  AK isn't something I like multiway unless its dirt  cheap.

Then tonight, I play like this.

Your not the only one. I do this as well. Say something on the forum then when i get in that position play it completely differently. Looks like a shove from here tho

SMARTGOAT

2.25 DYM's are filled with recreational players unlike the other stakes, there are very few 2.25 regs, this means the higher rake is still beatable. I've maintaned a 65% win rate over a small sample of 300 2.25 games since i started recording my results. There is one player on here who I only ever see at these stakes and has exceptionally good stats despite the extra rake.

I'm still certain I would call here, I'm sure Tikay is correct in predicting his edge and in which case he should use his edge post flop rather than getting it in level 1. We're probably flipping at worst here if we get it in, but if we double up we're not guarenteed to cash, we're probably an 85-90% favourite. Against players likely to make mistakes it is up to you to adjust your strategy, rather than accepting that they made a mistake in calling for a flip.

I'm glad Tikay has kept us in suspense, the result would of created a bias in the responses. The beauty of poker is that all decisions could be argued as profitable and there is no real definitive answer.

goldon

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Can't see the stacks but if you have ~2000 or less I prefer a jam (and likewise if either of the other players have those kinda stack sizes).  How on earth did you fold the flop (no offence lol)? Was it a misclick?
Posted by Lambert180

Saw hot flush coming.... spluttered.... teeth fell out bent down to pick them up.... got timed out

Tikay10

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

2.25 DYM's are filled with recreational players unlike the other stakes, there are very few 2.25 regs, this means the higher rake is still beatable. I've maintaned a 65% win rate over a small sample of 300 2.25 games since i started recording my results. There is one player on here who I only ever see at these stakes and has exceptionally good stats despite the extra rake. I'm still certain I would call here, I'm sure Tikay is correct in predicting his edge and in which case he should use his edge post flop rather than getting it in level 1. We're probably flipping at worst here if we get it in, but if we double up we're not guarenteed to cash, we're probably an 85-90% favourite. Against players likely to make mistakes it is up to you to adjust your strategy, rather than accepting that they made a mistake in calling for a flip. I'm glad Tikay has kept us in suspense, the result would of created a bias in the responses. The beauty of poker is that all decisions could be argued as profitable and there is no real definitive answer.
Posted by SMARTGOAT

+ 1 to both of those statements.

Tikay10

So many great replies in this, & it's impossible to name all those who posted such great advice, even though much of it was contradictory. There is no correct definitive answer, of course.

I've learned so much from this one thread, & my game will be better for it.

Tikay10

Fold pre?

I can't actually imagine I could ever do that here.
 
But If I did, for whatever reason, there's one thing for sure - I'd not tell a single living soul.
 
I had a few things in my mind, but folding was not amongst them.

Tikay10

When I first returned to NLH via these DYMs, I found that jamming very big hands early doors often resulted in folks calling off with all sorts of junk, & I doubled up many times.

But I'm trying to re-learn the game, & eventually, move up the stakes. And that kite just won't fly at higher stakes.
 

Tikay10

I've always been a big fan of squeezing. I get almost offended  by serial limping. These boys have to be punished.

A mate of mine from the old Luton G days, Richard Lynch (sadly, he passed away recently) used to say "they can't call, can they?"

So I do squeeze quite often, it is very satisfying on so many levels.

Psychologically, the limpers HATE it. We have pushed them around, forced them to do something (fold), & nobody likes to be pushed around. A successful poker squeeze really does give us psychological superiority. 

The Sticky Sorts want to be in their comfort zone. And we want to take them out of their comfort zone.

You wanna see a flop sunshine? Well call this then. 

It's hugely profitable, on balance.
 
Of course, it won't work at higher stakes, as most who play those stakes would never serial limp.

 

Tikay10

So I jammed all-in.

I was only worried about UTG man, logically nobody else can have a hand.

He snap-called. Whoops.

It seemed an age before everyone else folded, & I was cursing myself for being so dumb. Boy, I was gonna look pretty silly now.
 
Eventually, everyone else folds, & it's on their backs.
 
He has A-5.

There's no twist in the tail, the door card was the King, & it ran out safely.  

 

Jac35

There's one player who gets the lot at £5.50 dyms who limps in constantly. It shouldn't work for him but it really does

Tikay10

I was really heartened by several successful players saying "easiest jam ever". I thought so, too. When TommyD says it's a good play, it probably is.
 
Howevva.....

The thread has taught me it was the wrong play, & I'd not do it again. I played it wrong, but won.
 
Actually, I MIGHT do it again, (at small stakes) as I love that squeeze play so much. But I'll just not tell anyone.......

It was not the world's worst play, far from it. But it was not great, either. And it deffo won't work at higher stakes, as that scenario, with everyone limping, is simply impossible at higher stakes. And if it did happen, the Button would very likely squeeze first.....  

 

Tikay10

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

There's one player who gets the lot at £5.50 dyms who limps in constantly. It shouldn't work for him but it really does
Posted by Jac35

I doubt it works in the long term Paul.

Maybe you need to squeeze.

Most Sticky Sorts have horrendous loss rates per game over extended sample sizes.   

Jac35

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I doubt it works in the long term Paul. Maybe you need to squeeze. Most Sticky Sorts have horrendous loss rates per game over extended sample sizes.   
Posted by Tikay10

I totally agree

This chap has played 53k games though which makes it interesting to me

Sent you a link 

...

Anyway

Sorry for short derail

Back to this hand

Jac35

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I doubt it works in the long term Paul. Maybe you need to squeeze. Most Sticky Sorts have horrendous loss rates per game over extended sample sizes.   
Posted by Tikay10

You could well be right. I'm very nitty

Lambert180

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

I was really heartened by several successful players saying "easiest jam ever". I thought so, too. When TommyD says it's a good play, it probably is.   Howevva..... The thread has taught me it was the wrong play, & I'd not do it again. I played it wrong, but won.   Actually, I MIGHT do it again, (at small stakes) as I love that squeeze play so much. But I'll just not tell anyone....... It was not the world's worst play, far from it. But it was not great, either. And it deffo won't work at higher stakes, as that scenario, with everyone limping, is simply impossible at higher stakes. And if it did happen, the Button would very likely squeeze first.....    
Posted by Tikay10

Just to point out... no one limped in your hand There was a 5x and then lots of calls.

Although if it was the same amounts but limps (so it's 50/100 and they all limp) then I'd be even more inclined to jam 

hhyftrftdr

Can never underestimate the 'gamble' some players have (I wanna use a different word but it wouldn't be very nice and I have a nice guy image to uphold)

Can often do similar in the lower (and sometimes higher) stake BHs, never ceases to amaze me what people will look you up with early doors.

I was quite happy to fence sit regarding calling/3betting/jamming, the only clear mistake in my eyes was folding. Glad it didn't enter your thought process

Whizzewky

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

So I jammed all-in. I was only worried about UTG man, logically nobody else can have a hand. He snap-called. Whoops. It seemed an age before everyone else folded, & I was cursing myself for being so dumb. Boy, I was gonna look pretty silly now.   Eventually, everyone else folds, & it's on their backs.   He has A-5. There's no twist in the tail, the door card was the King, & it ran out safely.    
Posted by Tikay10

Very surprised,in most other forms,cash, turbo most mtt's it would be a no brainer to jam..in this situation so early on makes little sense to me.

MP33

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

So I jammed all-in. I was only worried about UTG man, logically nobody else can have a hand. He snap-called. Whoops. It seemed an age before everyone else folded, & I was cursing myself for being so dumb. Boy, I was gonna look pretty silly now.   Eventually, everyone else folds, & it's on their backs.   He has A-5. There's no twist in the tail, the door card was the King, & it ran out safely.    
Posted by Tikay10

He,s possibly done you a big favour there and potentially put another player off calling with a pocket pair, who may have done, had they thought they,d be going in 2 handed

bbMike

Never underestimate the number of times the oppo's cat might jump on their keyboard.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Very surprised,in most other forms,cash, turbo most mtt's it would be a no brainer to jam..in this situation so early on makes little sense to me.
Posted by Whizzewky

Don't think I'd make a habit of it Whizzy, it just seemed to good to resist at the time.

The transition from Pot Limit (PLO & PLO8) to NL are so long playing exclusively PL has made me a bit trigger happy.

Glad I started the thread though, as it taught me loads, & I'll be curbing that habit now.
 
How was the laptop? Not like to be you next time you pass. Boy that's gonna sting.  

TommyD

Well I'm gonna stick to my guns here and say it's still a jam.  I respect and get where most of the arguments being put forward for other options are coming from though.

Let me elaborate on the thinking.  To cash in a DYM we need an average finishing stack of 4k.  We are going to need to accumulate chips.  Yes chip conservation is a high priority and every hand should be addressed with the question 'What's a very good reason why I shouldn't fold?'  I feel this does present such a reason from the dynamic you have put forward.

We should limit the times we are at risk, ideally to zero but as much as we have testimonies from people in this thread of 'someone will call,' the juicy days of not having to play a hand in 20% of DYMs to cash as chips flew around are all but over.  You'll be in at least one at risk spot.  Now unless flop sets and run like [insert current in form Reg's name here] these spots will be 65%-70% spots if we are playing optimally.  Clearly we'd like to avoid this but there's a strong chance we'll face at least one a game.  That's why if we were calling off (and indeed any time we call off rather than jam ourselves) it is, to me at least, much more borderline.

Back to the actual hand, now it's critically important now we've doubled from a dominating position early that we navigate our way to the win.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Well I'm gonna stick to my guns here and say it's still a jam.  I respect and get where most of the arguments being put forward for other options are coming from though. Let me elaborate on the thinking.  To cash in a DYM we need an average finishing stack of 4k.  We are going to need to accumulate chips.  Yes chip conservation is a high priority and every hand should be addressed with the question 'What's a very good reason why I shouldn't fold?'  I feel this does present such a reason from the dynamic you have put forward. We should limit the times we are at risk, ideally to zero but as much as we have testimonies from people in this thread of 'someone will call,' the juicy days of not having to play a hand in 20% of DYMs to cash as chips flew around are all but over.  You'll be in at least one at risk spot.  Now unless flop sets and run like [insert current in form Reg's name here] these spots will be 65%-70% spots if we are playing optimally.  Clearly we'd like to avoid this but there's a strong chance we'll face at least one a game.  That's why if we were calling off (and indeed any time we call off rather than jam ourselves) it is, to me at least, much more borderline. Back to the actual hand, now it's critically important now we've doubled from a dominating position early that we navigate our way to the win.
Posted by TommyD

Not a bad effort considering that whilst you were posting this, you were also busy winning last night's Main Event. Congrats.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Well I'm gonna stick to my guns here and say it's still a jam.  I respect and get where most of the arguments being put forward for other options are coming from though. Let me elaborate on the thinking.  To cash in a DYM we need an average finishing stack of 4k.  We are going to need to accumulate chips.  Yes chip conservation is a high priority and every hand should be addressed with the question 'What's a very good reason why I shouldn't fold?'  I feel this does present such a reason from the dynamic you have put forward. We should limit the times we are at risk, ideally to zero but as much as we have testimonies from people in this thread of 'someone will call,' the juicy days of not having to play a hand in 20% of DYMs to cash as chips flew around are all but over.  You'll be in at least one at risk spot.  Now unless flop sets and run like [insert current in form Reg's name here] these spots will be 65%-70% spots if we are playing optimally.  Clearly we'd like to avoid this but there's a strong chance we'll face at least one a game.  That's why if we were calling off (and indeed any time we call off rather than jam ourselves) it is, to me at least, much more borderline. Back to the actual hand, now it's critically important now we've doubled from a dominating position early that we navigate our way to the win.
Posted by TommyD

I'm getting some help (coaching, advice) from 2 respected DYM guys who are both big winners long term, & they both think I should not be jamming here, & I've kinds agreed they are right.

The temptation to jam in this spot still sits with me though, it just does. It's such a great spot. 

Anyway, yes, once I doubled, I just had to get home safely. In these situations, I'm as near a lock as possible, I play snug & cosy, & just sit quietly for the most part. Bashing up the shorties just because I can, with my double stack, holds no appeal to me, I long ago forgot all about ego. We get the same money for 3rd as 1st, & that'll do me.

I saw a kid with 5,500 chips 5 handed end up busting in 5th 2 nights ago. That's ego at its worst.        

Phantom66

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Well I'm gonna stick to my guns here and say it's still a jam.  I respect and get where most of the arguments being put forward for other options are coming from though. Let me elaborate on the thinking.  To cash in a DYM we need an average finishing stack of 4k.  We are going to need to accumulate chips.  Yes chip conservation is a high priority and every hand should be addressed with the question 'What's a very good reason why I shouldn't fold?'  I feel this does present such a reason from the dynamic you have put forward. We should limit the times we are at risk, ideally to zero but as much as we have testimonies from people in this thread of 'someone will call,' the juicy days of not having to play a hand in 20% of DYMs to cash as chips flew around are all but over.  You'll be in at least one at risk spot.  Now unless flop sets and run like [insert current in form Reg's name here] these spots will be 65%-70% spots if we are playing optimally.  Clearly we'd like to avoid this but there's a strong chance we'll face at least one a game.  That's why if we were calling off (and indeed any time we call off rather than jam ourselves) it is, to me at least, much more borderline. Back to the actual hand, now it's critically important now we've doubled from a dominating position early that we navigate our way to the win.
Posted by TommyD

1. To cash in a DYM we just need a finishing stack, If we focus on trying to get to 4k+ I would suggest we are not playing optimally.

2. Agreed - attempting to fold to the money is a very bad strategy - just enjoy the rare times when it happens

3. I understand where you are coming from in the rest of the post but you are not 65-70% by jamming AK here surely? 

Priority for a DYM is to reach the bubble with a playable stack imo.

My strategy is to try and get there with as little risk as possible, doesnt mean I dont shove or call all-in pre, of course I do.

Yes accumulate chips, but I try and do that by isolating weaker players. 

At low stakes (and this is in the context of a 2.25 dym) there are plenty of fit/fold types who you can pick chips up from, and a few calling stations and serial bluffers who are easy to spot and exploit. Why would we want to give up our edge on them by flipping?

If we reach the bubble with a playable stack we have mostly done our job. If there are 4 equal ability players on a dym bubble we should cash 75% of the time now. Happy days. 

MattBates

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : 1. To cash in a DYM we just need a finishing stack, If we focus on trying to get to 4k+ I would suggest we are not playing optimally. 2. Agreed - attempting to fold to the money is a very bad strategy - just enjoy the rare times when it happens 3. I understand where you are coming from in the rest of the post but you are not 65-70% by jamming AK here surely?  Priority for a DYM is to reach the bubble with a playable stack imo. My strategy is to try and get there with as little risk as possible, doesnt mean I dont shove or call all-in pre, of course I do. Yes accumulate chips, but I try and do that by isolating weaker players.  At low stakes (and this is in the context of a 2.25 dym) there are plenty of fit/fold types who you can pick chips up from, and a few calling stations and serial bluffers who are easy to spot and exploit. Why would we want to give up our edge on them by flipping? If we reach the bubble with a playable stack we have mostly done our job. If there are 4 equal ability players on a dym bubble we should cash 75% of the time now. Happy days. 
Posted by Phantom66

This boils down to calling ranges. It seems most from the non jam camp have decided AQ etc isnt calling and we are only called by pairs and not the large number of hands we dominate (like A5 for example). 

Phantom66

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : This boils down to calling ranges. It seems most from the non jam camp have decided AQ etc isnt calling and we are only called by pairs and not the large number of hands we dominate (like A5 for example). 
Posted by MattBates

In a sample of 1 we have made a great shove and got the sort of call we are looking for.

If you want to justify the jam you can assume a high % of folds and calls from Ax. If I want to justify a non-jam I can assume a low % of folds and a high % of more than one caller and a low % of Ax calls.

I dont shove in these spots anymore (took we a while to adjust from 6max to dyms) so I dont have a great sample of calls here either - I don't expect anyone does so we are all speculating on ranges to a certain extent.

Truth is none of us know for sure - I think if we look at the anti-jammers most of them are dym regulars.