What should I do now?

Chris_Mc

I would agree with tommy paul here. they are much better at explaining than me. im most likely putting all my chips in here and see what happens. i dont have aq great track record though ans play mainly for fun. look forward to see what the outcome was though.

RLT16

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

It's a £2.25 DYM. The table, not to be rude, looks reasonably soft. Even with my lack of recent NLH game time, I do actually expect to be able to do OK in this - let's say I'd "win" it 66% of the time, just by sticking to solid DYM principles.   We are in Level 1, just started, & I am in the BB. UTG makes it 100 to go. (10/20, but I already know this guy raises almost every hand pre).   The WHOLE TABLE then call.  So it gets to me in the BB, & there is 520 in the middle. (Starting stack is 2,000).   We have A-K suited.  What should I do now, & why?    
Posted by Tikay10

So we have 4 options

Shoving

the issue with shoving is that, as you've described the table as soft i will assume they are 5 weak recs and in general they don't like to fold any pair. so when you get called its by 22+, you will get the odd occasion when you get called by Ax but that will be a far smaller amount of the time. so by shoving you are essentially accepting a flip in a game type where you need to win 56.5% of games just to break even, i know that most people think of races as 50/50 but in terms of actual % you're actual only 47-48% vs most pairs that's an immediate strain on the rest of your results. that's assuming you only get 1 call. and while the 520 chips in the middle would be a nice top up i don't think your going to get the folds enough times to make it +ev in this format.

3 bet

the issue with 3 betting non all in is with 520 in the middle, were going to need to bet large to get the folds we want, and we do want folds doubling up is great ofc but in the overall scheme of things we'd rather win games having never gone to showdown. so were going to have to raise it up to at least 550 but having already seen all 5 players call we shouldn't be surprised to see at least 2 or more of them call (or occasionally 4 bet jam which we should never be calling) then we get to the flop. there is 1850 in the middle and 3 of you in the pot. if you don't hit you have to give up and you've already lost over 25% of your stack and chip preservation is key.

Calling 

Imo this is the second best option although i still dont like it. playing 6 handed with AKs against 5 wide ranges of hands is going to lead to some tricky spots. we are hoping for dry A high flop. any wet flops and we could easily be playing for stacks.

lets set up a wet flop as an example

As Ks - 1900 chips

600 chips in the middle the flop comes Ah 8d 9d

SB checks to us. what do we do now? we know that these are weaker players, they aren't going to fold their draws and with the wide ranges of hands already out there we have no idea if we are ahead, or miles behind.

Bet, folding puts a massive dent in our stack.

Bet, call (1 or more shoves) and we are never going to be a massive favourite if we are ahead but always going to be a massive underdog if behind.

check, call and we still have no idea where we are and there arent going to be alot of turn cards we like.

folding

this is my prefered play here for all the reasons above. plus as i've highlighted its a £2.25 dym and the other 5 players have already shown they want to mix it up with each other and this could easily be a game where we don't have to do anything to cash. that on top of all the messy scenarios make it a fold for me. we WILL find better spots, and that's assuming we need to find a spot and they dont do it for us.

essay over, tear me apart

chilling

Tikay, are you pulling up stats on oppos in NLH dyms, or was it for this specific hand? Wouldn't have thought you had the time.

Is this spot not covered in the above thread, ABC of dyms, John Connor?

RLT16

p.s might need a time bank for all that ^^

jimb0d1

Shove all day...but thats why I lose at dyms  

hhyftrftdr

Amazed people are advocating folding a double nut maker pre flop in a multi way pot.

I also don't believe anyone actually folds in game.

Jac35

I think one of the biggest questions here is why are you playing a dym with rake that high?

Lambert180

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

I think one of the biggest questions here is why are you playing a dym with rake that high?
Posted by Jac35

 

Jac35

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Tikay, are you pulling up stats on oppos in NLH dyms, or was it for this specific hand? Wouldn't have thought you had the time. Is this spot not covered in the above thread, ABC of dyms, John Connor?
Posted by chilling

Matts guide is very good

I'd be slightly wary of taking it as the definitive way to play dyms though 

He wrote it a good while ago and I'm sure he would update many of his thoughts now

Tikay10

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

I think one of the biggest questions here is why are you playing a dym with rake that high?
Posted by Jac35

It was part of my "re-learn NLH" strategy initially. I was, at the time, playing £2.25, £3.30 & £5.50.
 
Then I was advised that it made no sense, as the rake diluted returns too much.
 
I get that point, but I'm not entirely convinced - surely, to a degree, that is, or could be, offset by the games being that much easier?
 
Anyway, I took the point, & have not played a £2.25 NLH DYM since. I do play the odd £2.25 PLO8 DYM now & then, when I am short of games, but generally the extra rake in them is offset by table quality. 

So now, I just play £3.30, & £5.50 i the NLH. 

I did spend one evening 10 days ago dipping my toes in the £11 games, & running into Timmy, SJSpansky, RLT & Co. That sure went well.
 
I have also played, surprisingly - but with very good reason (tables looked ultra playable) - 3 of them @ £22. Hard to believe that some £22 tables (I emphasise "some") are softer than the average £3 or £5 table, but they are. And after the outrageously good luck I had in a £22 NLH affair this morning, I might never play another. Sheesh, doubt I've ever been a bigger dog to cash, I had 50 chips at 200-400.......and won.
 
 

stuarty117

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Really Stu?  I always admire your discipline at DYM (I try to curb my reckless side, doesn't always work :-)), but surely folding here is too tight.
Posted by HENDRIK62

Folding is deffo not tight its smart especially at a 2.25 dym.

If we shove in my experience u will get someone calling with a mid pair then we are flipping/slight underdog. Calling is bad. Remember we only have Ace high we shove and get a gambler to call with any2 our odds still not great. We have only invested 20 chips. 

Turbo dym auto reshove or a 6max

Also by folding we are near GTD to be in 2nd place straight away.

Phantom66

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Amazed people are advocating folding a double nut maker pre flop in a multi way pot. I also don't believe anyone actually folds in game.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I thought jimi was the only non believer around here?

I think you should believe the players who have winning records at high volumes of 3.30 dyms when they say fold here. And I mean the likes of stu and rlt and not me although I happen to agree. 

Jac35

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I thought jimi was the only non believer around here? I think you should believe the players who have winning records at high volumes of 3.30 dyms when they say fold here. And I mean the likes of stu and rlt and not me although I happen to agree. 
Posted by Phantom66

I actually think folding is terrible here 

HENDRIK62

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Folding is deffo not tight its smart especially at a 2.25 dym. If we shove in my experience u will get someone calling with a mid pair then we are flipping/slight underdog. Calling is bad. Remember we only have Ace high we shove and get a gambler to call with any2 our odds still not great. We have only invested 20 chips.  Turbo dym auto reshove or a 6max Also by folding we are near GTD to be in 2nd place straight away.
Posted by stuarty117

Absolutely agree, shoving here is not my preferred option, calling is poor, I think I can happily squeeze to 500 chips here and even if we don't thin the field, we will have a good idea where we are post flop, assuming sb doesn't lead we check to UTG (who will probably have come along) and when he bets into our flopped nut flush we come over the top :-) 

Did I say I was an optimist :-)

In the unlikely event that I do not flop the flush I can fold and happily carry on with 1500 chips.

jdsallstar

I think this is the easiest flat here in the world. Shoving is way too risky at this level when you'll get so many good chances later on. Folding just seems crazy too. The fact they're suited just seals the call. I'd probably flat all suited aces and small pairs here too with the huge implied odds.

Flop's easy enough played and we can just play it pretty cautiously given how much edge we believe we have on the field.

If we flat with the right board we can win the game in this hand. if we fold we dont have that chance and if we shove yes we can win it but we can also very easily lose it.

Flat>fold>shove in my book.

B16JDH

 So early on I'm folding. AK is only ace high and you are a slight dog to 2-2. I'm not flipping early on in level 1 and especially against a soft table in low stakes.

The others sat there have got to be good enough to understand the shove and on a soft table you are likely to pick up at least two callers who are taking a "punt".

You can't win a DYM in level one but you sure as hell can loose it.

stuarty117

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Absolutely agree, shoving here is not my preferred option, calling is poor, I think I can happily squeeze to 500 chips here and even if we don't thin the field, we will have a good idea where we are post flop, assuming sb doesn't lead we check to UTG (who will probably have come along) and when he bets into our flopped nut flush we come over the top :-)  Did I say I was an optimist :-) In the unlikely event that I do not flop the flush I can fold and happily carry on with 1500 chips.
Posted by HENDRIK62

This can put you under pressure by going this low in level one and you could start making loose calls starting to chase hands. Even if we flop a A or a K they may have AA or KK anyway. 

As tikay says its a weak table so just fold you will cash alot more times than not. 

Even if we double our chip stack here we are not assured of cashing, yes it helps alot. Cant win it in level one but can lose it.

If it was a timed mtt that lasts 5mins woohoo go for it

gerardirl

Its a dym not a 6 max, fold and let them go to war at level 1.

With AK I reckon you are behind here, surely one of the 5 callers has a pair, so you shove and they call your less than 50%.

If the table is weak surely you will have ample oppurtunity to build your stack.

Ger

Essexphil

2 options:-

1. Shove; and
2. Think carefully and shove

Anyone who folds there who makes money, could be making more money....

chilling

Cmon mr T, im going out in a mo. REVEAL.

gerardirl

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

2 options:- 1. Shove; and 2. Think carefully and shove Anyone who folds there who makes money, could be making more money....
Posted by Essexphil

Yes if its an mtt or 6 max

Mayhem357

I think you can tell it's the very good MTT/6 max players saying this is a jam and the good DYM players saying it's not.  DYMS are about equity and on £2 DYMs I reckon your shove is getting called more often than not by garbage, probably you are 60/40 or 50/50 way too often and your equity doesn't increase by that much.   You simply don't need to take the chance especially on the low stakes most of the recreational players will knock themselves out early going to war with marginal hands and you are often on the bubble by levels four or five.

Had this been on a better table at say £5s or £11s a shove may work because people have a bit better hand selection and grasp of equity but at the micro stakes it's a long term losing play in my view.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Cmon mr T, im going out in a mo. REVEAL.
Posted by chilling

The reveal is actually irrelevant. We can make a bad play & win, or a correct play & lose.
 
I will reveal how it played out, but if I say what happened it affects how people reply.

And as you can see, there have been some very different views on what is the correct play.
 
The experienced winning NLH players won't learn much - if anything - from this thread - but I bet many others do, me included.    

B16JDH

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : The reveal is actually irrelevant. We can make a bad play & win, or a correct play & lose.   I will reveal how it played out, but if I say what happened it affects how people reply. And as you can see, there have been some very different views on what is the correct play.   The experienced winning NLH players won't learn much - if anything - from this thread - but I bet many others do, me included.    
Posted by Tikay10

Right play, wrong result... All part of poker.

jdsallstar

If we assume we win 65% of the time against this field at the start, if we call and then fold flop playing with 1900 stack I'd still put that win percentage at 60%+. If we play and win this hand, especially if we double, that our win percentage will go to 85%+. I'm calling.

Then there's the whole side issue of it's fun to be in this hand ��

gerardirl

Give TImmy a call!

Essexphil

In isolation, the shove with AK may not be plus ev. however, the fact that I do shove with AK there means I get a lot more callers with my AA/KKs. That needs to be factored in

Have to say I fear Tommy a lot more in DYMs than the "reg" DYMers

Jac35

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In isolation, the shove with AK may not be plus ev. however, the fact that I do shove with AK there means I get a lot more callers with my AA/KKs. That needs to be factored in Have to say I fear Tommy a lot more in DYMs than the "reg" DYMers
Posted by Essexphil

Do you really think that we need to be balanced with our actions in £2.25 Dym?

I woukd seriously doubt that the players woukd be aware enough to notice this.

Last bit is interesting 

Essexphil

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Interesting  In all honesty do you think that the players in this £2.25 dym would be thinking along these lines Phil?
Posted by Jac35

Only the better ones.

The problem with the ultra cautious approach of some is that they appear to want to play with their cards effectively face up. That will make money up to (poss0 £5.50 DYMs. Then people get left with a really exploitable style at higher levels....

Jac35

I like jds posts a lot on this thread