What should I do now?

Phantom66

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Still amazed anyone would say folding is the best line. Phantom, I know we've discussed this away from here but I can't agree with you, nor indeed with anyone who says fold. I also don't believe for one minute that anyone actually folds this pre in game.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

That's fine. I have learned a lot in this forum from you and others when I have explained what I would do and been given an alternative option and explanation. Jdallstar made a great post earlier explaining why he thought the call was the optimum option in context. I might be wrong technically, I still don't like calling to be oop. Yes we can flop the world but so can anyone, there are 5 opponents after all.

Looking at it another way...

We are 120/1 ish to flop a flush and if we do even the recs are going to see the possibility so unless we are even luckier to be up against Qxh how are busting someone here? We could even get bust by a str8 flush or a set housing up if we do get action.

We are even worse to flop a straight about 300/1 although if we do there may be more chance of extracting value but we can still lose to hands that house up or other flush draws if there are 2 suited cards that are not ours.

In other words we are about 1% to flop the nuts.

Most of the hands we have a chance of connecting with for the pot odds we have will be so vulnerable against a field of 5 random hands and we are out of position.

So no even after all this discussion I don't think folding is a terrible play here, in a dym, at this level, against this field.
 

Still amazed anyone would say folding is the best line. Phantom, I know we've discussed this away from here but I can't agree with you, nor indeed with anyone who says fold. I also don't believe for one minute that anyone actually folds this pre in game.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Now this bit I do take offence to. I am not lying and I do not believe others who say they would fold are either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k83JUCEe5Po

Is there some other reason you are a touch grumpy today?

hhyftrftdr

I don't believe anyone sits there, in game, having been dealt AKs in the bb and seeing 5 others in the pot, and clicks fold. If you wanna take offence to that then thats your call (no pun as you'd fold, apparently)

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : That's fine. I have learned a lot in this forum from you and others when I have explained what I would do and been given an alternative option and explanation. Jdallstar made a great post earlier explaining why he thought the call was the optimum option in context. I might be wrong technically, I still don't like calling to be oop. Yes we can flop the world but so can anyone, there are 5 opponents after all. Looking at it another way... We are 120/1 ish to flop a flush and even we do even the recs are going to see the possibility so unless we are even luckier to be up against Qxh how are busting someone here? We could even get bust by a str8 flush or a set housing up if we do get action. We are even worse to flop a straight about 300/1 although if we do there may be more chance of extracting value but we can still lose to hands that house up or other flush draws if there are 2 suited cards that are not ours. In other words we are about 1% to flop the nuts. Most of the hands we have a chance of connecting with for the pot odds we have will be so vulnerable against a field of 5 random hands and we are out of position. So no even after all this discussion I don't think folding is a terrible play here, in a dym, at this level, against this field.   Now this bit I do take offence to. I am not lying and I do not believe others who say they would fold are either. Is there some other reason you are a touch grumpy today?
Posted by Phantom66

Why even get out of bed on a morning?

Phantom66

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

I don't believe anyone sits there, in game, having been dealt AKs in the bb and seeing 5 others in the pot, and clicks fold. If you wanna take offence to that then thats your call (no pun as you'd fold, apparently)
Posted by hhyftrftdr

You questioned me. I repeated I would fold. You didn't believe me. You still don't. So I infer you are calling me a liar.

Being called a liar - when trying to be genuine - I do take offence to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1AzBP30UIA

If you just think I am deluding myself because you cant see any other play than a call - fine we'll agree to differ.

I am beginning to agree with Chilling and just want to see the hand now please :-)

Phantom66

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Why even get out of bed on a morning?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

That point about hitting and losing was a minor aside. Main point is that this "double nut maker" only actually flops the nuts 1% of the time. It's a dym. Other players seem keen to throw their chips in so let them. We are a huge dog to the field even with a hand as nice as AKs.

Phantom66

Generally v a weak field I would rather let them clash with each other as much as they like and look for spots where I can be 1v1.

Much easier to get chips from a single weaker opponent by getting value from a better hand or making them fold a better hand than to play 6 handed bingo.

If I thought the shove was getting through enough of the time I would, but at that level I don't hence my view fold is the better option of the 3.

Shall we try and find some common ground?

I dont think a min raise is wise here.

Phantom66

Not that I am getting obsessed by this thread or anything but.

A quick tally up

Fold  10

Call    8

Raise  2

Shove 8

So that's 10 liars, 8 solid dym players, 8 solid MTT players and 2 unclassifieds

(didnt count matt although I guess he wont be folding, probably shoving as any flip is 80/20 for him)

MP33

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Not that I am getting obsessed by this thread or anything but. A quick tally up Fold  10 Call    8 Raise  2 Shove 8 So that's 10 liars, 8 solid dym players, 8 solid MTT players and 2 unclassifieds (didnt count matt although I guess he wont be folding, probably shoving as any flip is 80/20 for him)
Posted by Phantom66

lol - I know what you mean. I,ve had this hand in my head all night. I did say fold but after reading some of the replies can see why a call would make sense as well. We know it was early in the 1st level , but what was the action like before this hand - Had it been pretty aggro in first few hands or had it been tight up until this point? if it had been pretty tight up until this hand i might lean toward a call but if it had already been aggro from 1st hand i,m staying out of it and folding. One conclusion i,ve come to is its deffo not a shove or a re-raise imho of course. I know we shouldn,t be results oreintated but just wanna know what happened now. Also when Tikay says this guy UTG always raises pre - whats his normal raise size?

eon1961

punish the limpers all in

HENDRIK62

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

punish the limpers all in
Posted by eon1961

:-)

TommyD

A couple of scenarios/questions/'what would you do?' for the folders in this thread.

One of the more prevalent arguments being put forward to fold is this is a low level DYM and you'll always get a couple of callers to a shove.  So what do you do with kings here (versus two I would estimate we'd be around 65% to win the hand)?  Second, very first hand this DYM you have 88 UTG.  You just open folding?

Honestly curious considering the arguments being put forward.  Very good thread.

MP33

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

A couple of scenarios/questions/'what would you do?' for the folders in this thread. One of the more prevalent arguments being put forward to fold is this is a low level DYM and you'll always get a couple of callers to a shove.  So what do you do with kings here (versus two I would estimate we'd be around 65% to win the hand)?  Second, very first hand this DYM you have 88 UTG.  You just open folding? Honestly curious considering the arguments being put forward.  Very good thread.
Posted by TommyD

I,d be shoving with KK,, but UTG i,d be folding 88 in the very first hand, although sometimes i will get tempted to try and see a flop even though i think its the wrong move. Thats one of the hardest things i find with DYM,s - laying down good hands pre-flop in first level or 2 . (probably because were so used to raising with them in other forms of the game)

chilling

I do hope there are bustos in this hand, otherwise this journey is going to be an anticlimax.Im thinking the reason for asking for views on how to play this hand, is because it went pear-shaped for tikay.Ger is a wise owl, no need to play a pretty hand this early against the whole table.Each to their own though. I do hope tikay didnt time out. ( curve ball )

Jac35

I see no reason not to raise 88 utg 1st level 

Lambert180

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I,d be shoving with KK,, but UTG i,d be folding 88 in the very first hand, although sometimes i will get tempted to try and see a flop even though i think its the wrong move. Thats one of the hardest things i find with DYM,s - laying down good hands pre-flop in first level or 2 . (probably because were so used to raising with them in other forms of the game)
Posted by MP33

Wow, open folding 88 in level 1 of a DYM has to be a mistake surely.

Jac35

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

I do hope there are bustos in this hand, otherwise this journey is going to be an anticlimax.Im thinking the reason for asking for views on how to play this hand, is because it went pear-shaped for tikay.Ger is a wise owl, no need to play a pretty hand this early against the whole table.Each to their own though. I do hope tikay didnt time out. ( curve ball )
Posted by chilling

How the hand played out doesn't matter one jot

chilling

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : How the hand played out doesn't matter one jot
Posted by Jac35

I think it does myself. Otherwise there's no need to ask the question, or for views.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I think it does myself. Otherwise there's no need to ask the question, or for views.
Posted by chilling

I think Jac's point is that it's the same as saying 'well we shoved with KK and walked into AA so it's a bad move'.

We can't get the result of this 1 hand from Tikay and use that to say that any decision was right. Maybe he jams and gets called in all 5 spots, but that doesn't mean it's bad longterm, or maybe he folds and then would have got a QJT flop and stacked 2 players who had QJ and TT, and we can't say it's a bad fold because of that etc. So the result is kind of irrelevant

Jac35

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I think it does myself. Otherwise there's no need to ask the question, or for views.
Posted by chilling

The reason to ask the question and ask for views is so that we can try and make the right decisions.

How the hand plays out is irrelevant 

chilling

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : I think Jac's point is that it's the same as saying 'well we shoved with KK and walked into AA so it's a bad move'. We can't get the result of this 1 hand from Tikay and use that to say that any decision was right. Maybe he jams and gets called in all 5 spots, but that doesn't mean it's bad longterm, or maybe he folds and then would have got a QJT flop and stacked 2 players who had QJ and TT, and we can't say it's a bad fold because of that etc. So the result is kind of irrelevant
Posted by Lambert180

Im presuming tikay is multi-tabling and needs to know what a dym player would instinctively do on auto pilot.The result is important, as it verifies you decision.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Im presuming tikay is multi-tabling and needs to know what a dym player would instinctively do on auto pilot.The result is important, as it verifies you decision.
Posted by chilling

If someone jams 20bb and we are discussing whether we should call with K8o or not, I'm gonna say you deffo shouldn't. If you do call and the villian shows Q8o and you win the 70/30 does that mean you were right to call?

Phantom66

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

A couple of scenarios/questions/'what would you do?' for the folders in this thread. One of the more prevalent arguments being put forward to fold is this is a low level DYM and you'll always get a couple of callers to a shove.  So what do you do with kings here (versus two I would estimate we'd be around 65% to win the hand)?  Second, very first hand this DYM you have 88 UTG.  You just open folding? Honestly curious considering the arguments being put forward.  Very good thread.
Posted by TommyD

Firstly there are no folders in this thread we are all lying ;-)

I dont think you always get 2 callers to a shove, but I would expect 1 at least and often two and much more often they will have pairs not Ax.

Shoving KK AA.  I think QQ probably good too given calling ranges and that sometimes times we get 0 or 1 caller.

Against 5 unknown opponents folding 88 1st hand utg yes.  If I am confident we only get called and are rarely 3bet then I might open 88 from utg. 88 v one weak opponent, or set mining v a few callers on a passive table is ok but I really try and avoid playing out of position, especially against players I don't know.

chilling

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : If someone jams 20bb and we are discussing whether we should call with K8o or not, I'm gonna say you deffo shouldn't. If you do call and the villian shows Q8o and you win the 70/30 does that mean you were right to call?
Posted by Lambert180

Well as i see it, the only unusual thing we have here, is the amount of callers.Asking the question was always going to lead to different camps.

Some right some wrong.( in this particular hand ) So it must come down to the view of the player(s) tikay respects the most, if wanting help.

Regardless of the outcome then.

chilling

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : If someone jams 20bb and we are discussing whether we should call with K8o or not, I'm gonna say you deffo shouldn't. If you do call and the villian shows Q8o and you win the 70/30 does that mean you were right to call?
Posted by Lambert180

Indeed, poker is a betting game, but this hand may involve the whole table

MP33

I also think some of these decisions we have to  mix up a bit. Were often up against the same players and obv making the same move everytime becomes to predictable

RLT16

Firstly  UTG level one with 88 I'm just min raising.

Back to the main hand but with KK it's an obvious shove, I'd shove QQ+ in that spot.  I know people will talk about balancing your range by shoving AK but you don't need to balance your range in a £2.25 dym, I don't want to be rude but 99% of the people in those games aren't looking at your ranges or there own ranges they are looking at the 2 cards in there own hand. Like you say when you shove and get 2 calls with KK we are likely to be 65% well above the required win % required to turn a profit and closer to 80% when we only get one call. 

I have a question for the guys saying we should shove AK, when we shove and get a call, before the cards are flipped over are we ever happy that we've been called?  are we relieved when everyone folds? And are we ever expecting to be anything other than a 46-48% underdog, assuming we only get one call, i would  guess at closer to 30% with 2 calls.

I think what the people, including myself are failing to get across is that while AK may occasionally get you 500 chips in this spot far more often it's going to have you flipping (or worse) in the first level of a DYM. The risk in this exact dym against these exact dym players far outweighs the reward. There is a bigger skill edge to be had in playing small ball poker down the streets.

I would compare it to picking up AA on the bubble of a sat while your sat in second 10 people payed and the chip leader jams on you, calling with AA would be the right play if we needed to accumulate chips but we don't we just need to survive. 

AK in this spot of a Mtt, six max or cash game, rip it in/raise it. In a dym just let it go. 

VespaPX

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Firstly  UTG level one with 88 I'm just min raising. Back to the main hand but with KK it's an obvious shove, I'd shove QQ+ in that spot.  I know people will talk about balancing your range by shoving AK but you don't need to balance your range in a £2.25 dym, I don't want to be rude but 99% of the people in those games aren't looking at your ranges or there own ranges they are looking at the 2 cards in there own hand. Like you say when you shove and get 2 calls with KK we are likely to be 65% well above the required win % required to turn a profit and closer to 80% when we only get one call.  I have a question for the guys saying we should shove AK, when we shove and get a call, before the cards are flipped over are we ever happy that we've been called?  are we relieved when everyone folds? And are we ever expecting to be anything other than a 46-48% underdog, assuming we only get one call, i would  guess at closer to 30% with 2 calls. I think what the people, including myself are failing to get across is that while AK may occasionally get you 500 chips in this spot far more often it's going to have you flipping (or worse) in the first level of a DYM. The risk in this exact dym against these exact dym players far outweighs the reward. There is a bigger skill edge to be doing in playing small ball poker down the streets. I would compare it to picking up AA on the bubble of a sat while your sat in second 10 people payed and the chip leader jams on you, calling with AA would be the right play if we needed to accumulate chips but we don't we just need to survive.  AK in this spot of a Mtt, six max or cash game, rip it in/raise it. In a dym just let it go. 
Posted by RLT16

Like

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

In Response to Re: What should I do now? : Firstly there are no folders in this thread we are all lying ;-) I dont think you always get 2 callers to a shove, but I would expect 1 at least and often two and much more often they will have pairs not Ax. Shoving KK AA.  I think QQ probably good too given calling ranges and that sometimes times we get 0 or 1 caller. Against 5 unknown opponents folding 88 1st hand utg yes.  If I am confident we only get called and are rarely 3bet then I might open 88 from utg. 88 v one weak opponent, or set mining v a few callers on a passive table is ok but I really try and avoid playing out of position, especially against players I don't know.
Posted by Phantom66

Incred.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: What should I do now?:

Firstly  UTG level one with 88 I'm just min raising. Back to the main hand but with KK it's an obvious shove, I'd shove QQ+ in that spot.  I know people will talk about balancing your range by shoving AK but you don't need to balance your range in a £2.25 dym, I don't want to be rude but 99% of the people in those games aren't looking at your ranges or there own ranges they are looking at the 2 cards in there own hand. Like you say when you shove and get 2 calls with KK we are likely to be 65% well above the required win % required to turn a profit and closer to 80% when we only get one call.  I have a question for the guys saying we should shove AK, when we shove and get a call, before the cards are flipped over are we ever happy that we've been called?  are we relieved when everyone folds? And are we ever expecting to be anything other than a 46-48% underdog, assuming we only get one call, i would  guess at closer to 30% with 2 calls. I think what the people, including myself are failing to get across is that while AK may occasionally get you 500 chips in this spot far more often it's going to have you flipping (or worse) in the first level of a DYM. The risk in this exact dym against these exact dym players far outweighs the reward. There is a bigger skill edge to be had in playing small ball poker down the streets. I would compare it to picking up AA on the bubble of a sat while your sat in second 10 people payed and the chip leader jams on you, calling with AA would be the right play if we needed to accumulate chips but we don't we just need to survive.  AK in this spot of a Mtt, six max or cash game, rip it in/raise it. In a dym just let it go. 
Posted by RLT16

To do that you have to, you know, see flops and not fold and stuff.

unknown_username

me id shove

i dont play DYMs but my thoughts would be if i shove i may get people to fold and id probably be up against one or two callers which is better than five *unless they are all nuts* if i lose reload another i should be rolled to play these games and i may never get a premium hand again in this game , and if your playin six tables you wont have to think about that hand again on that table

ah the thoughts rookie ,  simplistic eh