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Cash players... please resolve this argument for me:

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  • edited February 2010

    get it in asap, AJss good enough to be ahead of a serial shover.

  • edited February 2010
    There is no debate. Call, call call and more call. 
  • edited February 2010
    in Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    it's the new unindecicive me :)
    Posted by cottlad
    :)

    In all seriousness, cottlad has it spot on and backs it up with sound explanation and reasoning! oh and maths!

    On the face of it, it looks like a fold to many, but when you read blackfishes expo of the oppo, (of which he has a very good read) its an easy call.

    Remember that this is a cash game, and a game in which blackfish will be adequately rolled. If we are in an MTT then its a different story as we are busto if we lose.

    To fold in this spot, against this oppo, with the history and info we have on this player is deffo -Ev long term.

    You cant always have aces or kings!
  • edited February 2010
    Let me point out he didnt shove every hand... He shoving selected hands.
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    Cottlad did you not read my justification for my fold? 
    Posted by Strat91
    Yes, but yr wrong i'm afraid.  Of course it's personal choice and whatever you choose cannot be wrong for you..... but pokerwise and mathematically it's a bad fold.

    1) if you don't get his money someone else will..... and very soon...... certainly before you get dealt AA/KK
    2) we have proved that we have a minimum of 60% equity...... this is massive in nlhe.  I would quite happily take this double up spot all day and every day with 60% equity and i have absolutely no idea why anyone would turn it down????? 

    Poker is a game of averages and if you get allin with an average equity of 60% or more you'll soon be retiring :)

    oh and 3)......... ther are soooooooted!!!!! :)
  • edited February 2010
        equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied   
    Hand 0:     65.393%      64.40%     01.00%         1350786717      20872070.00   { AsJs }
    Hand 1:     34.607%      33.61%     01.00%          705041543      20872070.00   { random }





    Basically you have 65% equity against any random hand so its defenetly worth calling. If your still going to fold then you should drop down stakes - if you can't afford to take a 65/35 flip then you shouldn't be playing.


    (PS this assumes that he is actually shoving every single hand but even if he's only shoving half the time you still have equity to call)
  • edited February 2010
    IMO AJ even s is not that hot a hand!!!

    Only way this is a good call is if you can see that he has Q7 and not assume...Might only be cash but it's for all of your evenings work, I'd rather have suited connectors TBH rather than A high.

    Also this guy is a cardrack (for the night at least) he's already sucked out on you numerous times tonight with cr@p cards

    Just like the villain I'd rather shove my stack first than call my stack off with AJ...simples

    Still a fold for me boys

    x
  • edited February 2010
    put it this way strat........  if someone flipped a coin and said heads or tails..... my £6 versus your £5 you'd snap his hand off right as long as you knew it wasn't rigged?
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : ok so 66 vs Q7...insta call but AJ vs Q7...insta fold LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
    Posted by scotty77
    Made hand v unmade hand?

  • edited February 2010
    The villain started off shoving every hand, then check folded a couple of hands and then started shoving again for a while... i think he was just bored and wanted to keep shoving or something and gamble to keep himself entertained... his pattern of play was to shove every hand until he was called (then he sucked out) and would fold a couple, then shove every hand again... he done this over and over again, i was really worried that someone else would take him out so when i had AJs in BB and everyone folded to his shove i snap called... it was a great chance to get my money in as a 60% favourite for almost a 500BB pot! My read on him was that i was on average 60% favourite.

    now to add to this discussion... if he is shoving as i feel with any ace, king, pair, some queens, some suited cons... then what should you call with? i feel A9+ and 88+...
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : Yes, but yr wrong i'm afraid.  Of course it's personal choice and whatever you choose cannot be wrong for you..... but pokerwise and mathematically it's a bad fold. 1) if you don't get his money someone else will..... and very soon...... certainly before you get dealt AA/KK 2) we have proved that we have a minimum of 60% equity...... this is massive in nlhe.  I would quite happily take this double up spot all day and every day with 60% equity and i have absolutely no idea why anyone would turn it down?????  Poker is a game of averages and if you get allin with an average equity of 60% or more you'll soon be retiring :)oh and 3)......... ther are soooooooted!!!!! :)
    Posted by cottlad
    Lets not go into the sooooted business again - still having nightmares from that guy this afternoon hitting everything sooooooted!! Hope you managed to take him down in the end mate!!
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    IMO AJ even s is not that hot a hand!!! Only way this is a good call is if you can see that he has Q7 and not assume...Might only be cash but it's for all of your evenings work, I'd rather have suited connectors TBH rather than A high. Also this guy is a cardrack (for the night at least) he's already sucked out on you numerous times tonight with cr@p cards Just like the villain I'd rather shove my stack first than call my stack off with AJ...simples Still a fold for me boys x
    Posted by TRIP5
    please don't heed any of the above advice if you aim to become a winning poker player..... if you're already winning i don't need to tell you that ;)
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : this is amazing
    Posted by scotty77
    LOL why? it might seem a bit radged but if someone is shoving again and again they arnt goading me and in the end you can goad them.

    If i am wrong at least i wont loose all my dosh and ignorance is indeed bliss lol. He defo should fold.

    Cheers Scotty

    Airwalker
  • edited February 2010

    Just a quick question before I reply to that comment. whats skys cash game rake %?

  • edited February 2010
    Oh Cottlad why do you bother
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : Made hand v unmade hand?
    Posted by TRIP5
    in this spot...unmade hand.

    66 is more easily crushed than AJss.

    Even if he shows KK vs AJss then you are about 32% to win.

    If he shows KK vs your 66 then you are 20% to win.

    And double lol at using terms like card rack etc.

    Cash poker is about taking every equity advantage possible.  From our reads AJ is gonna have very very good equity.
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    IMO AJ even s is not that hot a hand!!! Only way this is a good call is if you can see that he has Q7 and not assume...Might only be cash but it's for all of your evenings work, I'd rather have suited connectors TBH rather than A high. Also this guy is a cardrack (for the night at least) he's already sucked out on you numerous times tonight with cr@p cards Just like the villain I'd rather shove my stack first than call my stack off with AJ...simples Still a fold for me boys x
    Posted by TRIP5
    ace high is nicely ahead of his range... suited cons are not! When you talk about getting your stack in first it is because you have the added advantage of them folding... i dont want him to fold i want him to call and me be a 60% favourite.
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    The villain started off shoving every hand, then check folded a couple of hands and then started shoving again for a while... i think he was just bored and wanted to keep shoving or something and gamble to keep himself entertained... his pattern of play was to shove every hand until he was called (then he sucked out) and would fold a couple, then shove every hand again... he done this over and over again, i was really worried that someone else would take him out so when i had AJs in BB and everyone folded to his shove i snap called... it was a great chance to get my money in as a 60% favourite for almost a 500BB pot! My read on him was that i was on average 60% favourite. now to add to this discussion... if he is shoving as i feel with any ace, king, pair, some queens, some suited cons... then what should you call with? i feel A9+ and 88+...
    Posted by BlackFish3
    So what happened Black? were you 60% lucky?
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    Oh Cottlad why do you bother
    Posted by BrownnDog
    I dunno tbh lol.
    Just trying to help blind pensioners across the road...... probably more fun to watch them dodge the traffic though :)
  • edited February 2010
    I will post the result tomorrow because i feel it will make people's oppinions who haven't yet posted results orientated... if he had a better hand preflop then people might lean towards fold, if he had a weaker hand preflop then people might lean towards call.
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : in this spot...unmade hand. 66 is more easily crushed than AJss. Even if he shows KK vs AJss then you are about 32% to win. If he shows KK vs your 66 then you are 20% to win. And double lol at using terms like card rack etc. Cash poker is about taking every equity advantage possible.  From our reads AJ is gonna have very very good equity.
    Posted by scotty77
    I think what you are saying here is right but i would rather stick all my cash in on my terms so that if i loose its a bad beat so i dont feel as bad lol.

    I'm still not making any sense am i lol


  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : please don't heed any of the above advice if you aim to become a winning poker player..... if you're already winning i don't need to tell you that ;)
    Posted by cottlad
    Cotty,

    It's an opinion not advice. With my money I would fold with my stack intact rather than gamble...guess it's the nit in me eh?

    Either way - for me...still a fold!

    x
  • edited February 2010
    shoving every hand its an easy call....... i would do it on 500 nl and 1000nl too.
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : in this spot...unmade hand. 66 is more easily crushed than AJss. Even if he shows KK vs AJss then you are about 32% to win. If he shows KK vs your 66 then you are 20% to win. And double lol at using terms like card rack etc. Cash poker is about taking every equity advantage possible.  From our reads AJ is gonna have very very good equity.
    Posted by scotty77
    I love cardrack...much better term than 'hitting his varience' :o)
  • edited February 2010
    Hes not shoving every hand you ignorant people. Hes shoving selected hands. Reads the posts.. And to anyone who actually knows, whats the rake % on 4NL cash on sky.
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    To me his range is any ace, any pair, any king, a lot of queens and suited connecting hands... so that makes it a profitable call... so if its a profitable call why would i fold? i dont want anyone else taking his money before i can.
    Posted by BlackFish3


    This is the best post of yours i've read mate. Keep thinking like this for cash :)





    Have to admit, started writing a post and including stoves and stuff but meh just cawl if he's open shoving greater than 15-20% of the time it's a snappety snap.

    DONT post the results, every so often he will have a hand, that's poker.
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : I think what you are saying here is right but i would rather stick all my cash in on my terms so that if i loose its a bad beat so i dont feel as bad lol. I'm still not making any sense am i lol
    Posted by AIRWALKER

    It is always on your terms that the money is going in, hence you have to be able to justify your actions. When you are sitting at a cash table you are looking to make money. If someone wants to go all in every hand then you should be there to capitalise and take the good bets that are on offer. 


  • edited February 2010
    This is his pattern of play:
    Shoved with Q9s and sucked out first hand joined the table.
    Plays loose passive for 4 hands
    Shoves
    Loose passive 2 hands
    Shoves
    Loose passive 1 hand
    Shoves next 4 hands in a row
    Loose passive next 6 hands
    Shoves next 2 hands in a row


    When he shoved he had AK, rag aces, rag kings, Q9s and KK. He lost every pot he didn't shove in so my impression of him is a player that tries to play with the stack he builds up... gets bored very quickly and so shoves until he gets called and either goes bust or doubles up and then plays on until he once again gets bored and repeats...

    From this I feel that you can put him on the range of any ace, any king, any pair, some queens and some suited cons mixed in. AJs beats this range and so that is why I called.
  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    Just a quick question before I reply to that comment. whats skys cash game rake %?
    Posted by Strat91

  • edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : It is always on your terms that the money is going in, hence you have to be able to justify your actions. When you are sitting at a cash table you are looking to make money. If someone wants to go all in every hand then you should be there to capitalise and take the good bets that are on offer. 
    Posted by beaneh
    Dont you think that it was too much of a risk though? Is that hand really goon enough, i mean, its sort of well loosable and more gambling than playing the game to me but i'm not saying your wrong.
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