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Cash players... please resolve this argument for me:

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  • cottladcottlad
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : Does it have to be apples? im not a fan.
    Posted by dantb10
    It has to be apples because the greengrocer has just had a rush on grapefruits and only has 2 left.
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  • scotty77scotty77
    edited February 2010
    lol cottlad
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  • NColleyNColley
    edited February 2010
    Scotty I think Webby doesn't understand, this is cash Webby, not a DYM where you fold everything to an all in except AA or KK for the first 5 levels. This is the hand I've been waiting for, my target has shoved again, we know we are going to be 60% or more ahead the majority of times, so snap it off, and if we lose, reload again.
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO
    edited February 2010
    the ONLY time it should be folded imo is if,

    1 - losing 200+ big blinds is really gonna hurt you, and if thats the case you shouldnt be at the table, as ur not rolled.

    2 - losing that big pot, will send you into monkey tilt which will cost you most of ur roll over the next few hours.

    Both of these suggest you shouldnt even be playing, let alone reloading to the max.

    Seems like you have the gist though and just wanted confirmation. 

    Lot of good players giving their advice here.  Webby, you would do well not to alienate these players as these could help you no end further down the road.

    Also, ppl that are justifying call/fold or w/e by saying `IMO`.  A lot of decisions in cash, have nothing to do with opinions.  They are either mathematically correct or incorrect.
    If you are using your opinion and folding, it is more likely it is due to one of the points I made above.

    FWIW webby, I would love to have the input that some of these players have made on this thread in some of mine
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    OK this is my final post on this subject...... it's just for Webby...... I don't know how to simplify it more...... You have £1000 you use for poker/gambling One day yr walking past the greengrocers and he shouts you over Lined up on a table he has 6 red and 4 green apples and 10 buckets  He says you can have 100 goes at picking one of the 6 red apples from underneath a bucket for £5 per go and for each correct guess he will give you another £5. You think for a while and do the maths....... 100 x £5 = £500 cost You will guess correctly on average 6 times out of 10 or 60 times out of 100. Your expectation is therefore 60 x £10 minus yr stake = £100 profit. Do you accept the greengrocers offer? Oh and just as an addition....... our expectation in the hand in question is greater than 6/10 for every go..... Your move?
    Posted by cottlad

    I was going to stay out of this "discussion" but I can't help myself now.

    To extend this analogy, we know for a fact that there is another grocer down the street who is offering the same deal but has 7 red apples and 3 green apples (or even 7.5 green apples and 2.5 red apples).
    But we've got a hole in our pocket and we're dripping £1 coins as we walk. Also, there's a chance that the other grocer will have shut up shop (for the day) by time we get there or will have gone bust because someone else has had a go at his apples and been successful.

    So to make a "mathematical" decision, we need to know the distance to the next greengrocer and how much money other people might wager with him and the likelihood of him closing for the day before we get there. Without this information we cannot make the a fully informed mathematical decision.


    For those who are not keen on analogies, what we need (at least) to be able to make a full mathematical decision are:

    1. the equity (i.e. the likelihood of us winning) that we have with our current hand against our opponent's "range"
    2. the average equity that we would have if we wait for one of a range of better hands
    3. how many hands will we have to wait (on average) before getting one of these hands
    4. the stack sizes of the other players at the table and their likelihood to call an aipf by the villain (i.e. how likely is he to go broke before we get to call him)
    5. the likelihood of the villain leaving the table with his stack intact (or changing his game plan)
    6. the stack sizes relative to the blinds

    It is not always the case that we should make the call because it is +EV for this particular hand and our opponent's range. If our equity is 51% (say) it would certainly be better to wait for a stronger hand. Therefore, it is a matter of judgement as to whether to call weighing up all the factors above.

    Having said all that, 60% is significant equity and most successful cash players would call. The reason for this being that waiting for an opportunity where we have 75% (or similar) equity would take too long and involve the risk of us never getting the opportunity to call an aipf from this opponent.

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  • ACESOVER8sACESOVER8s
    edited February 2010
    Webby, I know you like a bit of contraversy but your comments about the high stakes players doesn't stack up mate.

    Are they better because they "Play" higher stakes?  NO they are better because they WIN at higher stakes. If these guys were people who deposited thousands and donked it off then fair enough but these are people who have built rolls by consistantly making the right play. They are sharing the information that they have built up over extended periods of playing at those stakes and making money from it. It's one of those "When This Guy Speaks, You Should Listen" type situations. If you ever decide to play cash games these are EXACTLY the guys you want commenting on your hands.
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  • OMahonyOOMahonyO
    edited February 2010
    loving these analogies
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  • hurst05hurst05
    edited February 2010
    strange hand love the thread haha i love reading arguments. its a tricky one, if im at a table vs a guy whos having it all his own way then id reluctant to call. thing is, everyone who plays high stakes would call this yeah, if this hand was the equivalent at 200nl would you want to go allin for £500 with a-j suited when even if he has the likes of 9-q your still not that big of a favourite to risk £500 especially as to have 500 you would have got it up from 200 so very risky, and on the off chance he doesnt have you crushed well. your hoping he has a lower jack or lower ace, i dont think i could call this, let him have his 4p
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  • dav1964dav1964
    edited February 2010
    What a great thread this has been with so much input from the BIGGER cash players.The 2 players who i will not name consistently saying FOLD are never ever going to be good cash players.FWIW i play 5p/10p,10p/20p and sometimes 15p/30p and with the info i have on this particular player i CALL all day long.Once again ty for all the input from some of the players and TPers.dav
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  • jamesg1987jamesg1987
    edited February 2010
    I don't play that high stakes but can't imagine people openly shoving with rubbish like K-4 every few hands so although the comparison is the same it's hard to relate the two. Also the odds are the same no matter the stakes and are playing within the same limits of their bankroll, so I imagine people at the higher stakes are still making the call.

    CALL CALL CALL!!
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  • hurst05hurst05
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    What a great thread this has been with so much input from the BIGGER cash players.The 2 players who i will not name consistently saying FOLD are never ever going to be good cash players.FWIW i play 5p/10p,10p/20p and sometimes 15p/30p and with the info i have on this particular player i CALL all day long.Once again ty for all the input from some of the players and TPers.dav
    Posted by dav1964
    i have no knowledge of this player, just what the OP has said, have you met him on these stakes then dav? if so he is surely playing at a crazy level, talk about a jump in stakes
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  • webby234webby234
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    Webby, I know you like a bit of contraversy but your comments about the high stakes players doesn't stack up mate. Are they better because they "Play" higher stakes?  NO they are better because they WIN at higher stakes. If these guys were people who deposited thousands and donked it off then fair enough but these are people who have built rolls by consistantly making the right play. They are sharing the information that they have built up over extended periods of playing at those stakes and making money from it. It's one of those "When This Guy Speaks, You Should Listen" type situations. If you ever decide to play cash games these are EXACTLY the guys you want commenting on your hands.
    Posted by ACESOVER8s
    aces i know they are good players and would call but i wouldnt its that simple, by the way not all good players play the higher stakes, there are some donks who play at that level
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  • webby234webby234
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    What a great thread this has been with so much input from the BIGGER cash players.The 2 players who i will not name consistently saying FOLD are never ever going to be good cash players.FWIW i play 5p/10p,10p/20p and sometimes 15p/30p and with the info i have on this particular player i CALL all day long.Once again ty for all the input from some of the players and TPers.dav
    Posted by dav1964
    i am assuming i am one of the players you talk about here dav?

    right if i am in the same situation as blackfish then yes i do call all day long, 2 reasons really.

    1, because i am fed up of this guy keep shoving with dirt and getting lucky
    2, because i am a gambler and love to feel the rush of those split second decisions


    i dont make the call because i think i am at least a 60% fav, its amazing how many high stakes players on here are assuming its a guaranteed certainty to be a 60% favourite, they havent even considered the guy could be shoving with qq or kk like he did last time?
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : i am assuming i am one of the players you talk about here dav? right if i am in the same situation as blackfish then yes i do call all day long, 2 reasons really. 1, because i am fed up of this guy keep shoving with dirt and getting lucky 2, because i am a gambler and love to feel the rush of those split second decisions i dont make the call because i think i am at least a 60% fav, its amazing how many high stakes players on here are assuming its a guaranteed certainty to be a 60% favourite, they havent even considered the guy could be shoving with qq or kk like he did last time?
    Posted by webby234
    You do not understand. You have misunderstood (perhaps deliberately) what they have said.
    They are not saying that they are a certainty to be 60% favourite - far from it.
    They are saying that they are 60% against his probable range.
    I'm VERY surprised that you are still failing to grasp this concept.

    Also, your comments about there being bad players at NL200 are irrelevant since it is not those players who are offering advice here.
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  • webby234webby234
    edited February 2010
    how do they know is probably range? they are going on what someone else has said.

    cant be bothered to go back through the thread and read it all again but am sure blackfish has said that hes won 3 races against him so far and pushed all in in same position with KK?

    ps: all the players who have posted on this thread, not all are great, there are a couple of fishes amng us you know
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  • MereNoviceMereNovice
    edited February 2010
    Blackfish stated how often the guy had gone all in.
    From this you can deduce his range.
    It's not an exact science (and certainly not over this small a sample) but given the frequency of his aipf bets and the hands that he showed it is reasonable to assume that he is raising with at least the top 30% of hands - this is what defines his range.
    It then follows that AsJs is 60% against that range.
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  • webby234webby234
    edited February 2010
    i still wouldnt make the call, maybe thats why i dont play cash?
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  • oynutteroynutter
    edited February 2010
    you should always fold if you think you're ahead--just in case you are wrong---lol

    small stake, fast blinds,dym players are all mad imo, the rake is stupid, and the game is a waste of time.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited February 2010
    THIS THREAD IS AWESOME!!!! 



    AHAHAHHAHAHAAH




    Webby have you been placed here to be on windups 24/7 or are you just a prize plonker?



    BTW DYM's are the simplest most excruciating format of poker there is, with the least skill physically possible.
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  • webby234webby234
    edited February 2010
    a lot of skill required you fool, maybe you cant play a DYM becuase you wanna play every pot and get involved with raggy cards, get back on your cash table and leave us DYM players alone!!!!
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    a lot of skill required you fool, maybe you cant play a DYM becuase you wanna play every pot and get involved with raggy cards, get back on your cash table and leave us DYM players alone!!!!
    Posted by webby234

    lol


    The game we play is called poker. There are different variations. Some which force the action others which don't.

    DYM's are the most simple form of poker there is, there is no skill and there is no change to strategy. Tight is right. And horribly tight folds are rewarded. It's quite incredible just how much worse they managed to make a 9man top 3 pay sng, I thought they were bad!!!


    I'm very sorry that I initially tried to help you. I wont do again, you obviously know too much to learn anything. (lol)




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  • TRIP5TRIP5
    edited February 2010
    This guy has already lucked 3 all-in's against Black with dross! Whether we like it or not players (even bad ones) do have dream runs - the better players call it variance!! So why oh why with this knowledge would I allow him to win a forth on his terms...

    With this in mind I would still pass this...




    In favour of this...




    I do not call on the basis that it is the best offer at the time...which ever way I look at this I want my money in when I know I'm a better than 60% against this player on this night...is it not better to reduce the luck/gambling element?

    For 4p (or 1bb) it is an easy pass...his money will still be there but there is no chance of mine joining his stack on his terms. Different player, different outcome!!

    x
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    This guy has already lucked 3 all-in's against Black with dross! Whether we like it or not players (even bad ones) do have dream runs - the better players call it variance!! So why oh why with this knowledge would I allow him to win a forth on his terms... With this in mind I would still pass this... In favour of this... I do not call on the basis that it is the best offer at the time...which ever way I look at this I want my money in when I know I'm a better than 60% against this player on this night...is it not better to reduce the luck/gambling element? For 4p (or 1bb) it is an easy pass...his money will still be there but there is no chance of mine joining his stack on his terms. Different player, different outcome!! x
    Posted by TRIP5


    The probabilities of each event are mutually exclusive, it's not conditional that after you win a few you're more likely to win another. The maths never changes. All you're looking at doing is getting your money in good, obviously it is your money so you can try and choose what advantage you get it in with. However if you were going to be happy to always get it in with QQ preflop vs a tight player (who would get AK, and QQ+ in pre) because QQ 'is a good hand' then you are taking a worse gamble than if you get AJs in vs a set of hands that could hold anything. All hand strengths and values in poker are relative, both preflop and post flop.
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  • ACESOVER8sACESOVER8s
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    This guy has already lucked 3 all-in's against Black with dross! Whether we like it or not players (even bad ones) do have dream runs - the better players call it variance!! So why oh why with this knowledge would I allow him to win a forth on his terms... With this in mind I would still pass this... In favour of this... I do not call on the basis that it is the best offer at the time...which ever way I look at this I want my money in when I know I'm a better than 60% against this player on this night...is it not better to reduce the luck/gambling element? For 4p (or 1bb) it is an easy pass...his money will still be there but there is no chance of mine joining his stack on his terms. Different player, different outcome!! x
    Posted by TRIP5
    His moneu won't still be there is exactly the point. If Black has reduced his holdings to put him on a range then 1 2 or even all of the other players will have a similar impression. If you don't call here someone else will in the next set of hands and you could lose your value for the player when he's reduced to 10 or 20 bb's instead of being able to stack him. You can't fold when your ahead just because a guy got lucky against you before. This makes no sense and your ultra tight approach will not work playing cash. I understand you have your opinion on this but honestly, this one is a call, even though we know the outcome that the guy gets lucky again you can't say it's wrong to call, junk was well within the guys range and low and behold it that's exactly what he had. Blacks made the correct call
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  • ybyb
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    For 4p (or 1bb) it is an easy pass...his money will still be there but there is no chance of mine joining his stack on his terms. Different player, different outcome!! x
    Posted by TRIP5

    That's the point though, it won't be. If we don't get our money in when we are a 60% favourite against the opponents perceived range then someone else will, and they'll be the ones to gain from the +EV play. What is your calling range here? If you're waiting for a spot when you have a lot more than 60% equity then chances are you won't ever got your money in against him because his cash will be all gone by the time you get QQ/KK/AA. Tbh any cash player who doesn't call when they think they are around a 60% favourite isn't going to be profitable in the long run.

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  • Seagull158Seagull158
    edited February 2010
    146 posts so far.
    HAS THIS ARGUMENT BEEN RESOLVED YET?
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  • dav1964dav1964
    edited February 2010
    It was resolved ages ago.Unfortunately a few players still cannot grasp the concept that it is a call.lol dav
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  • TRIP5TRIP5
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : The probabilities of each event are mutually exclusive, it's not conditional that after you win a few you're more likely to win another. The maths never changes. All you're looking at doing is getting your money in good, obviously it is your money so you can try and choose what advantage you get it in with. However if you were going to be happy to always get it in with QQ preflop vs a tight player (who would get AK, and QQ+ in pre) because QQ 'is a good hand'then you are taking a worse gamble than if you get AJs in vs a set of hands that could hold anything. All hand strengths and values in poker are relative, both preflop and post flop.
    Posted by beaneh
    Hey Beaneh, I know this...lol

    You seem to be making assumptions about my overall poker play that are unfair and simply not true! why does everything have to be decided pre flop? It is possible to play the streets!!! I'm not sure you can take my strategy to this situation/player and apply it to my poker in general, this is an isolated case and i am offering my opinion based on the parameters provided in this instance.

    Specifically in this play, If I had different hole cards or had already invested money in the pot and been raised all in then the outcome would have been different for me...but with zero invested, against this player, let him have his 4p. 

    I still don't think AJ -  suited or not -  is the best situation for me to call off my stack this time...what can I say? Even against his range he could have me dominated on this occasion or (as happened) can out draw me.

    As it happens Black did the right thing according to the majority of posters and called...he happened to lose his stack on this occasion but as it was right in the long term then that's okay? I on the other hand would have not been out drawn against this guy on this occasion (I may well have been on another hand but that would be a different thread).

    Why spend hours building BR to lose it all on one hand, against someone you can't get a read from? I'm not trying to be confrontational but instinct tells me to fold on this occasion, had I have called I would have wished that I hadn't!!!

    As it happens - for my limit I am a successful cash player..believe it or not it's tourneys that I struggle with :o)

    All the best

    x

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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    Hey Beaneh, I know this...lol You seem to be making assumptions about my overall poker play that are unfair and simply not true! why does everything have to be decided pre flop? It is possible to play the streets!!! 
    Posted by TRIP5

    errr I wasn't trying to be rude or make aspersions about your play. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your thinking regarding this situation. Saying hold em isn't a preflop game is true except when you are analysing a situation where your opponents moves all in pre flop.


    If you dont think AJ is a good enough hand to call it off with then you should provide some mathematical/logical proof and reasoning. Yourself and webby have only so far given personal reasons and no explanation. There is not just 4p in the pot, he has put his stack in aswell.

    The idea that because black showed he lost to a worse hand that he shouldn't call is imo moronic. You can only get your money in good, the rest is down to short term variance of the type provided by skys rng. The whole point is putting this 200bb in isn't your whole bankroll and everything you have worked for, if you are playing correctly you will be able to lose this pot, rebuy and not even think about it because you know you made the correct play.



    I'm going to be brutally honest. From what you have put, about  

    'but with zero invested, against this player'

    and 

    'As it happens Black did the right thing according to the majority of posters and called...he happened to lose his stack on this occasion but as it was right in the long term then that's okay? I on the other hand would have not been out drawn against this guy on this occasion' 





    You don't quite understand the reasons why you are doing stuff at cash.
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  • beanehbeaneh
    edited February 2010
    In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::
    146 posts so far. HAS THIS ARGUMENT BEEN RESOLVED YET?
    Posted by Seagull158

    There isn't an argument or a discussion.  There are just 1 or 2 people who dont really understand cash.

    The 100% correct answer is,


    It is a winning play with the reads provided to call off 200big blinds versus this opponent with this holding.



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