Cash players... please resolve this argument for me:

TRIP5

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : errr I wasn't trying to be rude or make aspersions about your play. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your thinking regarding this situation. Saying hold em isn't a preflop game is true except when you are analysing a situation where your opponents moves all in pre flop. If you dont think AJ is a good enough hand to call it off with then you should provide some mathematical/logical proof and reasoning. Yourself and webby have only so far given personal reasons and no explanation. There is not just 4p in the pot, he has put his stack in aswell. The idea that because black showed he lost to a worse hand that he shouldn't call is imo moronic. You can only get your money in good, the rest is down to short term variance of the type provided by skys rng. The whole point is putting this 200bb in isn't your whole bankroll and everything you have worked for, if you are playing correctly you will be able to lose this pot, rebuy and not even think about it because you know you made the correct play. I'm going to be brutally honest. From what you have put, about   ' but with zero invested, against this player' and   'As it happens Black did the right thing according to the majority of posters and called... he happened to lose his stack on this occasion but as it was right in the long term then that's okay? I on the other hand would have not been out drawn against this guy on this occasion'   You don't quite understand the reasons why you are doing stuff at cash.
Posted by beaneh

Not true, I actually stated on page 1 of this post that I would have folded, and I understand your reason for advising Black NOT to post the results for the same reason.

lol - Maybe not to your meta-level but my play suits me just fine and my caution in these types of showdowns leaves my manhatten in a nice 'steady eddie' upwardly motion while cutting down on bad beats stories...

I prefer to take the gamble out of poker as much as possible...this attitude may not work for everyone!!!

x

big_mick12

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : Hey Beaneh, I know this...lol You seem to be making assumptions about my overall poker play that are unfair and simply not true! why does everything have to be decided pre flop? It is possible to play the streets!!! I'm not sure you can take my strategy to this situation/player and apply it to my poker in general, this is an isolated case and i am offering my opinion based on the parameters provided in this instance. Specifically in this play , If I had different hole cards or had already invested money in the pot and been raised all in then the outcome would have been different for me...but with zero invested, against this player, let him have his 4p.  I still don't think AJ -  suited or not -  is the best situation for me to call off my stack this time...what can I say? Even against his range he could have me dominated on this occasion or (as happened) can out draw me. As it happens Black did the right thing according to the majority of posters and called...he happened to lose his stack on this occasion but as it was right in the long term then that's okay? I on the other hand would have not been out drawn against this guy on this occasion (I may well have been on another hand but that would be a different thread). Why spend hours building BR to lose it all on one hand, against someone you can't get a read from? I'm not trying to be confrontational but instinct tells me to fold on this occasion, had I have called I would have wished that I hadn't!!! As it happens - for my limit I am a successful cash player..believe it or not it's tourneys that I struggle with ) All the best x
Posted by TRIP5

YES!!!!! it is right it will, in the long term make you money.

dav1964

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : Not true, I actually stated on page 1 of this post that I would have folded, and I understand your reason for advising Black NOT to post the results for the same reason. lol - Maybe not to your meta-level but my play suits me just fine and my caution in these types of showdowns leaves my manhatten in a nice 'steady eddie' upwardly motion while cutting down on bad beats stories... I prefer to take the gamble out of poker as much as possible...this attitude may not work for everyone!!! x
Posted by TRIP5

And long term the only loser is going to be YOURSELF im afraid.dav

dantb10

Where have all the apples gone?

TRIP5

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : And long term the only loser is going to be YOURSELF im afraid.dav
Posted by dav1964

Cheers Dav, guess we'll agree to disagree on this one

x

BlackFish3

hey everyone, it didn't bother me putting £10 in on this one hand because i am rolled for it, i put him on a range and worked out that with AJs i was ahead of his range enough to make it profitable despite the rake. I got sucked out on and yes it was frustrating because i was about 4 BIs up for the day until this guy killed me 4 times in a row, I was telling strat91 about it and explained it all... he told me it was a bad call, imo he's a very good low stakes player and so obviously i was going to listen but couldn't comprehend how being a 60% favourite against his range was wrong and he told me to post it on here... at first i got told it was a fold and i assumed it must be, but still i couldn't comprehend why because i was significantly ahead of his range... so ty to the big guns for reassuring me that its a call because at the time i fist pump called. Few hands before he shoved with a rag ace and got called by another rag ace... i was really worried by this because he was getting called sooo lightly that he could easily be stacked before its my chance.

oh btw please stop dym bashing !!! i think dym can be underestimated in terms of skill, but obviously its very different to cash and surely cash is the most skillful considering the blinds are so low relative to stack size...

webby et al... i don't think you should play cash (and i know you dont webby) unless you can grasp why this is a call. I don't see how you can gamble on like blackjack and not call here? The call is a gamble... i am effectively betting £10 that my hand will be better than his at showdown, i deduced his likely shoving range and worked out that i will be correct 60% of the time. Yes he will turn up with aces sometimes... (he showed me KK when i called his shove with 88) because that is within his shoving range, its just that that is the top of his range, so i cant let that put me off the call.

Again ty for all the oppinions, in particular the big cash game players as you guys were the ones i really wanted to hear from... btw brown dog, wow that video you pasted is almost identical so nice find! and dont feel that we are ungrategul of your advice because i am very grateful, others may or may not be but are just struggling to understand the situation.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : Not true, I actually stated on page 1 of this post that I would have folded, and I understand your reason for advising Black NOT to post the results for the same reason. lol - Maybe not to your meta-level but my play suits me just fine and my caution in these types of showdowns leaves my manhatten in a nice 'steady eddie' upwardly motion while cutting down on bad beats stories... I prefer to take the gamble out of poker as much as possible...this attitude may not work for everyone!!! x
Posted by TRIP5

The idea of reducing your variance is perfectly acceptable and very applicable for those with smaller rolls/with life costs etc etc. There is just no denying that making this call is a long term winning play which is all we ever try and do when we sit down at a cash table.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

oh btw please stop dym bashing !!! i think dym can be underestimated in terms of skill, but obviously its very different to cash and surely cash is the most skillful considering the blinds are so low relative to stack size... 
Posted by BlackFish3

No can do sorry! Each to their own, but DYM's are so robotic and limiting in how you should play (if again you want to be a long term winner).

webby234

beaneh is the king of poker, disagree with him and your wrong!! if he says DYM is robotic then its robotic!!1

beaneh

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

beaneh is the king of poker,
Posted by webby234

Quoted for truth!

Eagle26

lol I actually can't believe this thread is so long! basically just gonna echo what many are sayin this is a CALL all day long!! I had a very similar situation few weeks back on where some geezer joined the table went all-in EVERY hand with absolute any old junk! got lucky and doubled up a few times!. i was BB my hole cards A7 offsuit he pushed again every1 folded i snap called and took down a nice pot with ace high (he had q4) .... so was this the right call? obviously to some it wont be! but to me i had an extremley good feelin that my ace would be good here as im now effectively heads up against someone shovin any 2 and wanted to try and grab the free money on offer! if he had me dominated so be it, id just reload and try to get him after! sittin and waitin for the premium hands is the wrong play here simply because the player wont be around long enough for you to get them because somebody else on your table will have already took him out!  webby your a top bloke and a good player and i can definatly understand what your tryin to say however your not a cash player and this is soooooo a call buddy

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

lol I actually can't believe this thread is so long! basically just gonna echo what many are sayin this is a CALL all day long!! I had a very similar situation few weeks back on where some geezer joined the table went all-in EVERY hand with absolute any old junk! got lucky and doubled up a few times!. i was BB my hole cards A7 offsuit he pushed again every1 folded i snap called and took down a nice pot with ace high (he had q4) .... so was this the right call? obviously to some it wont be! but to me i had an extremley good feelin that my ace would be good here as im now heads up against someone shovin any 2 (and any1 that plays heads up will know you dont throw aces away lightly) and wanted to try and grab the free money on offer! if he had me dominated so be it, id just reload and try to get him after! sittin and waitin for the premium hands is the wrong play here simply because the player wont be around long enough for you to get them because somebody else on your table will have already took him out!  webby your a top bloke and a good player and i can definatly understand what your tryin to say however your not a cash player and this is soooooo a call buddy
Posted by Eagle26

If he is shoving 100% every hand, then its a call with A7o, you are 58.841% against any 2 cards with A7o... if he is shoving most hands but not all then this is probably a fold.

heapey0015

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : I thought you said he was shoving EVERY hand? Even with the tightened range above it's still an easy call..... anyone who disagrees is wrong i'm afraid (not often i stick my neck out that far.)
Posted by cottlad

fold  move  to diff  table gl

donkeyplop

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

THIS THREAD IS AWESOME!!!!  AHAHAHHAHAHAAH Webby have you been placed here to be on windups 24/7 or are you just a prize plonker? BTW DYM's are the simplest most excruciating format of poker there is, with the least skill physically possible.
Posted by beaneh

you say this like its a bad thing!! this is how ive made a nice profit and ive only been playing the game a few months.

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : you say this like its a bad thing!! this is how ive made a nice profit and ive only been playing the game a few months.
Posted by donkeyplop

i think dyms are the best way to learn the game whilst minimising losses. Its easy to pick up the basics and almost impossible to go bust if you have at like 10+ BIs. They are easy, simple and you can grind out a steady profit... however they aren't as profitable as playing cash... hence why i am trying to make the move to cash!

unknown_username

jeeeze wish i never went the match now look what i missed,plus sky and me are losing money cuz its took me 1/2 hr to read this thread.ida check raised,re-raised fold n cried,reload n cried sum more so who won then yeah n its took me ten minutes to write this think i better go now well done

beaneh

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : you say this like its a bad thing!! this is how ive made a nice profit and ive only been playing the game a few months.
Posted by donkeyplop

It's a bad thing for me because I don't like folding, each to their own. And it's surely better to play an hours worth of DYMs over 10 mins of cash if the results for dyms will be better than your cash ones

donkeyplop

yeah i only play as a hobby not purely to make money (while avoiding losing money) so with dyms i get more play for my money i guess

beaneh

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

yeah i only play as a hobby not purely to make money (while avoiding losing money) so with dyms i get more play for my money i guess
Posted by donkeyplop

I prefer to choose when I loosen up rather than being forced into it by constricting blinds. Similarly I like to be able to walk away from the game whenever I want rather than being tied in. Each to their own

KnackersYa

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : I prefer to choose when I loosen up rather than being forced into it by constricting blinds. Similarly I like to be able to walk away from the game whenever I want rather than being tied in. Each to their own
Posted by beaneh

So you prefer cash to tournaments then?

beaneh

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: : So you prefer cash to tournaments then?
Posted by KnackersYa

I play alot of MTTs but main game is cash. Single table tournies do my head in for the reasons explained.

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

Where have all the apples gone?
Posted by dantb10

 

My analogy really didn't go far enough, sorry.  :-)

In reality there are several other greengrocers further down the street,

They are all offering the same deal with varying proportions of red and green apples.

The further away the greengrocer is, the bigger the ratio of red apples to green apples is.

There is even a really generous greengrocer who has 8.5 red apples and 1.5 apples but he is quite a distance away. We could be really patient and wait until we get there but sadly the £1 coins will have been dropping through a hole in our pocket all the time that we are walking there. As a bonus, there is a chance that every few hundred yards a generous soul gives us £5/£10 to make up for the coins we are dropping.

In my opinion it's OK for people who like to gamble less to wait until they get to the furthest greengrocer provided they are not worried about the fact that it is quite likely he will be closed when we get there or that we won't have enough money to take advantage of his offer when we get there. These people are quite confident that a similar offer will be available on another day and that they will make it to the most generous greengrocer when the offer is still available. I don't see any problem with them doing this. We don't all have to visit the same greengrocers.

dav1964

Yes but do you personally prefer RED or GREEN apples mere?

beaneh

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: :   My analogy really didn't go far enough, sorry.  :-) In reality there are several other greengrocers further down the street, They are all offering the same deal with varying proportions of red and green apples. The further away the greengrocer is, the bigger the ratio of red apples to green apples is. There is even a really generous greengrocer who has 8.5 red apples and 1.5 apples but he is quite a distance away. We could be really patient and wait until we get there but sadly the £1 coins will have been dropping through a hole in our pocket all the time that we are walking there. As a bonus, there is a chance that every few hundred yards a generous soul gives us £5/£10 to make up for the coins we are dropping. In my opinion it's OK for people who like to gamble less to wait until they get to the furthest greengrocer provided they are not worried about the fact that it is quite likely he will be closed when we get there or that we won't have enough money to take advantage of his offer when we get there. These people are quite confident that a similar offer will be available on another day and that they will make it to the most generous greengrocer when the offer is still available. I don't see any problem with them doing this. We don't all have to visit the same greengrocers.
Posted by MereNovice

You never heard of supermarkets novice? You can buy whatever you want from them!!!

TRIP5

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me: :   My analogy really didn't go far enough, sorry.  :-) In reality there are several other greengrocers further down the street, They are all offering the same deal with varying proportions of red and green apples. The further away the greengrocer is, the bigger the ratio of red apples to green apples is. There is even a really generous greengrocer who has 8.5 red apples and 1.5 apples but he is quite a distance away. We could be really patient and wait until we get there but sadly the £1 coins will have been dropping through a hole in our pocket all the time that we are walking there. As a bonus, there is a chance that every few hundred yards a generous soul gives us £5/£10 to make up for the coins we are dropping. In my opinion it's OK for people who like to gamble less to wait until they get to the furthest greengrocer provided they are not worried about the fact that it is quite likely he will be closed when we get there or that we won't have enough money to take advantage of his offer when we get there. These people are quite confident that a similar offer will be available on another day and that they will make it to the most generous greengrocer when the offer is still available. I don't see any problem with them doing this. We don't all have to visit the same greengrocers.
Posted by MereNovice

You're brilliant )

x

big_mick12

lol at mere novice think that post should put this thread to bed now it gone on far to long

cottlad

My greengrocer analogy was to try and make people understand ranges, pot odds and winning popositions....  If you still dont understand i can make it simpler yet because you still want to wait for the best offer from yr greengrocer......  Maybe this will go in and you'll 'get it.' :

If you want to have multiple greengrocers and really want to get a close comparison you will need a street FULL of grocers..... every house!  100 grocers in a row........  All the grocers are offering the same offer but with different amounts of apples........ They each offer you only 1 attempt for £5 but you dont know before you get to each 1 what the ratio of red-green apples will be.  Also, if u refuse the bet and move to the next grocer you can't go back.  So..... maybe now you can see that each grocer is just the same as each separate hand...... so....  you know along the road you will be offered some bets of 50/50, some 60/40, some 40/60,some 80/20, some 20/80 eytc etc etc..... the 1st grocer is offering you a DYM bet at odds of 6/4 in your facour...... do ou give him yr fiver?

1) please say yes
2) please tell me you understand now........ i grow weary

Spikelad

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

lol at mere novice think that post should put this thread to bed now it gone on far to long
Posted by big_mick12

Mick i think there is life in this post yet,in fact i would like to see this hand analysed on Sky and see what our poker experts think about it.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

please tell me you understand now........ i grow weary
Posted by cottlad

hahaahahahahahahhaa

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Cash players... please resolve this argument for me::

My greengrocer analogy was to try and make people understand ranges, pot odds and winning popositions....  If you still dont understand i can make it simpler yet because you still want to wait for the best offer from yr greengrocer......  Maybe this will go in and you'll 'get it.' : If you want to have multiple greengrocers and really want to get a close comparison you will need a street FULL of grocers..... every house!  100 grocers in a row........  All the grocers are offering the same offer but with different amounts of apples........ They each offer you only 1 attempt for £5 but you dont know before you get to each 1 what the ratio of red-green apples will be.  Also, if u refuse the bet and move to the next grocer you can't go back.  So..... maybe now you can see that each grocer is just the same as each separate hand...... so....  you know along the road you will be offered some bets of 50/50, some 60/40, some 40/60,some 80/20, some 20/80 eytc etc etc..... the 1st grocer is offering you a DYM bet at odds of 6/4 in your facour...... do ou give him yr fiver? 1) please say yes 2) please tell me you understand now........ i grow weary
Posted by cottlad

I think it is you that does not understand.

There are indeed many greengrocers but the nearer ones offer the worse deal.

I should also have said that we are walking along the street with 4 or 5 other guys who are the ones who may occasionally give us £5/£10 as we progress. They are also losing money from their pockets and it is possible that I will give them £5/£10 to help them along too. Also, there are lots of cashpoints along the way so we can always keep a plentiful supply of cash to hand if we wish.

While it's true that each greengrocer only offers us one go, we can shop at several greengrocers and we do know what the ratio of apples is at each shop - that is the whole point.

I might choose to support my local greengrocer and am very glad when other people support him too but I'm not going to criticise someone who wants to wait until they get to the hypermarket at the end of the street, albeit a hypermarket with a flawed business model that may well go broke or shut up shop early. There will always be hypermarkets in my experience; even if we don't manage to get their fantastic offer today we will do on another day. It's likely that some of our friends will have got richer quicker than us but we will also make money over time and are quite happy with that.

The problem with shopping at greengrocers is that there are far too many people who are critical of other people shopping for the deal that suits them best.  As I said before, we don't all have to shop at the same grocers but we do need to allow other people to shop where they like.

Please tell me that you understand now.

I'm not growing weary and I'm quite happy to extend this analogy if you wish but I sense that the elastic is about to snap.