Can an old dog learn new tricks?

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

Questions time Favourite character you've played against? Do you see a time when you quit poker and shut off from it altogether and do something else? The poker boom has long since ended. However, I believe poker will still be going strong for many years. Agree? You have a 70/30 chip advantage v a player who you don't rate. Prize money is 100k for win and 65k for 2nd. He wants to do business and take 75k. Deal?
Posted by Jac35

Deal, every time., Always.

90,000? I'd bite his hand off.

It may well be idealistically wrong. But it'd be right for me.
 
It'd be right for most actually. That's why the majority of big MTT's end up with Business or chip chops.
 
It'll stay that way until Sites increase the % of players paid. The WSOP did it, the EPT did it, & I hope Sky Poker will do it. The overwhelming majority would favour that. The big winners, of course, would be against it, which is fair enough.     

Jac35

I've bought one of those 4K TVs 

Just sayin like 

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Lets hijack the diary and try and get the post count up! Note, no train stories in this post. I do find the whole variance thing interesting. Can effect even great players so massively. Have seen some horrific stories/graphs on 2+2 etc MTT variance, especially on big field sites is massively different to DYMs. With MTTs its all about closing when deep and deep runs on large field sites wont be happening all the time. When you do win an MTT, its a massive ROI compared to DYMs so that can make up for lots of losing days thus Moorman, the MTT online God can lose 4/5!. DYMs are not my area of expertise so no idea on swings in them, be interesting to know how many winning days out of 100 a DYM reg would expect.... and I mean a normal reg, not Timmy who last had a losing day in 2009.  Part of the problem is not all flips are equal....you lose a flip early in a small buy in comp, you listen to Taylor Swift and life is fine. If you are Fedor you flop quads in your QQ v AK flip when on the final table of a $102k buy in comp! When you play different stakes variance can effect results so much as shown by Tikay's stats. Run good in bigger games and life is brilliant. Run bad in the big games and you cant link the bottom line with how well you have played. The key is to keep up your A Game. I loved the post by nickkay where he didn't blame variance, blamed his play BUT worked at it. I was asked the other day about how many losing sessions I would have out of 100. I actually had no idea and I think that's pretty good to not know as it stops short term thinking. One session really doesn't matter especially as it could be a 4 game session or a 60MTT massive grind. I had to use scope to get an answer and it was 225 active days this year and 109 winning days. Mainly this shows I should get out more. Apart from that does show that you cant win every day but doesnt mean you wont win overall. Part of the issue with variance is we are not using the great guidance we have been given. "Poker is a never ending game" It doesn't matter if we lose one hand, one game, a night or even a month. Key bit is our decision making. If we can go into robot mode and focus on that we are all good. Very much easier said that done and we all get annoyed when you are on the end of a 2 outer but remember it is always deserved when we hit it!
Posted by MattBates

Terrific Post Matthew, especially the emboldened part.

If there were still a "Post of the Week" Comp, you'd be short-listed.
 
And if there were betting on it, you'd be very short.

 

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

I'll add a little to Matts post from the dym side. As a lower variance game he's right in the winning days will hopefully be higher. The rewards are obviously lesser though. From my scope I see that from over 14k games that 68% are winning days. We need to be winning first and foremost but rakeback and promos are absolutely huge in dyms. I think Tikay said himself the other day that he thinks that half his profits may come from rakeback. A couple of years ago I made the decision to play at higher stakes. I went into this with my eyes open. I knew that my roi would most likely decrease but believed that I would win more money. This is pretty much how it has panned out. It sounds odd so I'll give an example. I win 8/10 £3.30 Dyms. I win £15 I win 6/10 £22 Dyms. I win £20 Then we need to factor in the additional rakeback that I'll receive from playing higher as well. My ROIs at the different stakes suggest this is how it works too. I play up to £50 Dyms but I'll just take the stakes where I've played over 1500 games. £3.30 - 9.3% £5.50 - 9.3% £11 - 5.7% £16.50 - 8.2% £22 - 5.6% But we also need to be aware that the losing days will smart a lot more. That's when we have to keep our heads and accept it and know that over the long run we will win and it's just variance. We know this because we have the stats to back it up.
Posted by Jac35

Very important at my stakes, yes. If I average £10 a week in Rewards Money & Promos, that's £500 per year. As poker players, we sort of forget the value of money, but £500 is a lot of money in any language.

If I were playing bigger stakes, it'd be less important, of course. 

Given the chance, I would play bigger PLO8 DYM's all day every day. But there are just not enough of them. Yet.  

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

Just to add to my post  I think we have to be extremely careful when blaming variance for losing periods. I often see consistent losing players talk about being on a downswing. This is usually following a period when they have ran well and won a bit. We then think that variance is finally evening out and that we are just getting what we deserve. Then when normal service resumes and they start losing again, they're running bad. When we lose the first thing we should look at is ourselves 
Posted by Jac35

Both of those, yes.

Not a week goes past without someone comes on the forum & says they site is rigged, the RNG is not random, & it is all so unfair. 

I really have to bite my tongue when I reply to these guys.

Often, in the same sentence, they mention how poor the software is. And then say the software is rigged so that they get beat. Don't suppose its ever crossed their tiny minds that it would be incredibly complex to code software to deliberately beat specific players. And if Sky Poker have not got round to Antes yet, I'm pretty sure they would not be able to code software to beat some guy playing 5p 10p. And why would they? They want EVERY player to make a profit, & stay on site for the rest of their lives. Sending a player busto is 100% against the interests of The Business.
 
     

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

You do need good eyesight for fishing Tony.............unless youre thinking of trawling.
Posted by chilling

I would not. Not bothered about actually catching anything, or even the fishing - but the solitude, & the ability not to talk to a soul, & just watch nature is the thing.

Solitude is wonderful.  

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

I've bought one of those 4K TVs  Just sayin like 
Posted by Jac35

Sounds a lot of money for a telly.

Try Currys next time, or Radio Rentals.  

Tikay10

Last night's scores on the doors.

Had to quit early, not enough games, but I was nicely ahead, so not too bothered. A good night really. The profit - £30.50 - came from the £5.50 games, which I won 6-1.  

£2.25, P3, W1, L2

£3.30, P14, W10, L4

£5.50, P7, W6, L1

£11, P2, W1, L1 

Tikay10

A kid was on the tables the other night & was going nuts.

He was adamant he won the pot with a flush, but the pot went to his opponent.

He asked me to "sort it", but all I could say was, "sorry mate, but you did not have a flush".
 
Soon he was getting cross, arguing with the whole table, & TYPING IN UPPER CASE WITH LOTS OF !!!???

Yeah, that'll work mate.
 
Next he said he was reporting it to Sky. 

Then "Grae", a lovely chap, looked up the HH, & informed Mr !!! that he had FOUR spades in his hand & there were TWO SPOADES on the Board.
 
It all went rather quiet after that, & he put away the ridiculous upper case & redundant punctuation.  

Jac35

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Sounds a lot of money for a telly. Try Currys next time, or Radio Rentals.  
Posted by Tikay10

Might try Rumbelows

Think that the league cup was once the Rumbelows Cup

goldnballz

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Deal, every time., Always. 90,000? I'd bite his hand off. It may well be idealistically wrong. But it'd be right for me.   It'd be right for most actually. That's why the majority of big MTT's end up with Business or chip chops.   It'll stay that way until Sites increase the % of players paid. The WSOP did it, the EPT did it, & I hope Sky Poker will do it. The overwhelming majority would favour that. The big winners, of course, would be against it, which is fair enough.      
Posted by Tikay10

Interesting that you think sites need to increase the % of players paid. I played a tournament on another site the other day where they were paying almost 20% of the field. I min cashed for LESS than what I bought in for. After about 3 & a half hours play this really annoyed me, & has put me off playing other tournaments there. Interested to hear others opinions on this subject?

Ps - I'm far from being a 'big winner'

nickkay

If you like your own company and peace and quiet, fishing is brilliant. I was a mad keen coarse fisherman prior to the wife and kids coming along and like yourself, was just after the solitude just as much as catching fish.

There aren't many more pleasurable things that being sat first thing in a morning before dawn, watching the sun rise with just the birds for company.

Sadly, once the family arrived, time and other commitments took over and it's on the back burner till all the kids have flown the nest and I need something to do to avoid spending time with her indoors

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Interesting that you think sites need to increase the % of players paid. I played a tournament on another site the other day where they were paying almost 20% of the field. I min cashed for LESS than what I bought in for. After about 3 & a half hours play this really annoyed me, & has put me off playing other tournaments there. Interested to hear others opinions on this subject? Ps - I'm far from being a 'big winner'
Posted by goldnballz

If cashing for less than you paid in for (& lets assume you finished in one of the "min cash" spots between 10% & 20%), "really annoyed" you, turn that upside down - you would have got nothing under the 10% paid rule. How much would that have annoyed you? More, or less?

Twice as many got paid & 10% of the field got something when, ordinarily, they would have got zilch.

I can't speak for the EPT, but increasing the % paid in the WSOP to 15% this year was very very popular with the recreationals. It helped keep the money going round, & enabled many to do what they really wanted to do - play more Tournaments. These guys are not daft - they genuinely don't enter WSOP events thinking they can win. They enter because it's a great experience, & a fun way to pass the time.
 
PS - You are NOT a winner?

RAISE



  

bbMike

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

I'll add a little to Matts post from the dym side. As a lower variance game he's right in the winning days will hopefully be higher. The rewards are obviously lesser though. From my scope I see that from over 14k games that 68% are winning days. We need to be winning first and foremost but rakeback and promos are absolutely huge in dyms. I think Tikay said himself the other day that he thinks that half his profits may come from rakeback. A couple of years ago I made the decision to play at higher stakes. I went into this with my eyes open. I knew that my roi would most likely decrease but believed that I would win more money. This is pretty much how it has panned out. It sounds odd so I'll give an example. I win 8/10 £3.30 Dyms. I win £15 I win 6/10 £22 Dyms. I win £20 Then we need to factor in the additional rakeback that I'll receive from playing higher as well. My ROIs at the different stakes suggest this is how it works too. I play up to £50 Dyms but I'll just take the stakes where I've played over 1500 games. £3.30 - 9.3% £5.50 - 9.3% £11 - 5.7% £16.50 - 8.2% £22 - 5.6% But we also need to be aware that the losing days will smart a lot more. That's when we have to keep our heads and accept it and know that over the long run we will win and it's just variance. We know this because we have the stats to back it up.
Posted by Jac35

Hi Paul, interesting insight, you should post more, maybe keep a diary or two.

"You're a top bloke, but what I wanna know is..." when you say 'eyes open' did you have a plan for moving up? Did you reduce the number of tables you would play at a time, did you set yourself a loss limit where you'd drop back down? Did you move incrementally through the levels or just take a leap one day?

Apologies for the hijack Tikay, it's busy in here today.

MattBates

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Ive made the same mistake in the past on other sites.Every time you reg, you must be aware of the payouts and structures, and game types. I would assume a multi-tabler with a dollymixture of game types will have nightmare time of it, or not?
Posted by chilling

Players tend to play the same games. I dont play over as many sites these days but I would have my must play games then a number of can play games. The games you play you adjust based on how you are doing so that table count stays as near to your optimum at all times. All of the games I would know the structures of and you just keep an eye on the lobby as to when you are getting near the money so you can adjust your play near the bubble. 

Regarding payouts I cant get overly excited about the % of players paid. I think of greater importance is how much the min cash is and I think players should have more than just their money back to show for them getting into the money. I also think you should have a gradual increase as players are eliminated.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

In Response to  Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Hi Paul, interesting insight, you should post more, maybe keep a diary or two. "You're a top bloke, but what I wanna know is..." when you say 'eyes open' did you have a plan for moving up? Did you reduce the number of tables you would play at a time, did you set yourself a loss limit where you'd drop back down? Did you move incrementally through the levels or just take a leap one day? Apologies for the hijack Tikay, it's busy in here today.
Posted by bbMike

No apology needed Mike, it's good to chat I reckon.

If we all made an effort we could really rev up this Forum. Good questions do that - they start conversations, get folks interacting.
 
There have been some great questions yesterday & today from the likes of yourself, Matthew, Chilly Willy, Nick, Hendo, Nickkay & Vespa.

All good.

Diary will go quiet tomorrow as I've been summoned to Leeds (uh-oh), & I'm AWOL Thursday morning, too.      

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Players tend to play the same games. I dont play over as many sites these days but I would have my must play games then a number of can play games. The games you play you adjust based on how you are doing so that table count stays as near to your optimum at all times. All of the games I would know the structures of and you just keep an eye on the lobby as to when you are getting near the money so you can adjust your play near the bubble.  Regarding payouts I cant get overly excited about the % of players paid. I think of greater importance is how much the min cash is and I think players should have more than just their money back to show for them getting into the money. I also think you should have a gradual increase as players are eliminated.
Posted by MattBates

Hi Matthew,

Do you have any problems accessing the Lobby whilst playing on Sky Poker? I've seen one or two isolated complaints about this, & there was another complaint on Sunday or Monday night, though it was subsequently deleted by the complainant before I could reply.

MattBates

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Hi Matthew, Do you have any problems accessing the Lobby whilst playing on Sky Poker? I've seen one or two isolated complaints about this, & there was another complaint on Sunday or Monday night, though it was subsequently deleted by the complainant before I could reply.
Posted by Tikay10

Yes, is often problems. I often have to ask people to get a lobby up so I can find out how many paid and others will ask me too. 

Best thing is to not keep the lobby open while in late reg. I find it best to close and reopen the download during the 5min break. This tends to stop the instances where the software completely freezes which happens from time to time when playing a big session with lots of tables. I had the problem you mentioned in my last game last night so had to check how many paid. 

I think a lot of these problems are understood to be widely known and just accepted by regs. Like not getting cards sometimes when you move tables. 

Jac35

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

In Response to  Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : Hi Paul, interesting insight, you should post more, maybe keep a diary or two. "You're a top bloke, but what I wanna know is..." when you say 'eyes open' did you have a plan for moving up? Did you reduce the number of tables you would play at a time, did you set yourself a loss limit where you'd drop back down? Did you move incrementally through the levels or just take a leap one day? Apologies for the hijack Tikay, it's busy in here today.
Posted by bbMike

Mike

It was January 2014 when I really moved up. I had thought about doing it for some time. There was the PS4 promotion on that month and I decided to have a go for it.

It was a pretty calculated gamble. Up to that point i'd probably played over 10k Dyms across Sky and other sites. I was coming off the back of a very good year and so had a decent bankroll. I was also very confident in my game. I was a much better dym player then than I am now. The other players were nowhere near as good as they are now. There were a couple of players who probably made 1k+ in rakeback a month but lost £700 at the Dyms. They were a dream to play against. 

Tikay has already mentioned this, everybody played very passively. My style was the opposite and as a new player I fancied it would work well. Nowadays, Timmy snaps me off with any ace on the bubble and is usually right

I gave myself only £500 to play with. I played all £10s £16.50s and £22s. I know many would argue that this wasn't enough, but for the reasons given above I felt it would be ok. I didn't table select at all other than when I played any £33s. If I liked the lobby then I jumped in, if there were a few good regs then I passed on it.

I got lucky as that January I had my best ever month dym wise. I won well over 1k and by making priority, I received a very nice rakeback payment. I haven't really looked back.

I do think it is harder to do that now. The players are much stronger. I still tend to play up to £16.50s  without looking at the lobby but above that then I generally check it out. When there's already dial, reflex, gfk, Timmy and yourself regged for a dym, me joining  makes no sense. Sky will be the biggest winner in that game.

If I'd lost the £500?

What I would have done would have depended on a number of things. If I'd just been comprehensively outplayed them I would have dropped back down. If I could be honest with myself and come to the conclusion that I'd run badly then I would have reloaded and had another go.

There is nothing wrong with playing at stakes you can beat and knowing your limits. I was able to put more volume in back then and I simply wanted to make £20 a day when playing £3s and £5s. Doesn't sound much but £600 a month plus rakeback is a very decent amount.

If you moved up then I would be confident that you would be very comfortable.

Jac35

Also

While there is a core who will play only £11 Dyms, once you move up you will find that it's all the same players. The buy in may be higher but your opponents in a £33 are still the same guys who play £16.50s. So the standard of opponent doesn't always get tougher 

There is one reg who believes that the £55s are the softest!

Sounds odd? 

His theory is that after a bad night players often want to punt and see if they can recoup their money. One £5 dym isn't going to be enough to get them out of it, but a £55 might. 

It's often the case that you do see a few Randoms at those stakes. 

This has decreased slightly with the introduction of spin ups though.

bbMike

Interesting, some food for thought there thanks for taking the time on your posts.

Mayhem357

As a fellow DYM reg I agree with Jac35, although I've seen some super soft tables above £11s and it's not always the same regs.  I tend to mostly play £5s and £11s because that's where the traffic is  and I regularly withdraw from my bankroll but if you can play in the evenings the higher stakes do become more active.

Also as Jac mentions I don't table select unless it's £22s and above, no point sitting with five other good regs is my general motto although on £5s it's rare to get more than two decent regs on a table as it's full of recreational players.

nickkay

Poor night for me on PLO8 DYM's losing a spectacular 7/8 in a row. Cut my losses and played a PLO8 MTT which I managed to win. What I'm posting about is player notes. It's something I'm not really familiar with but last night tagged a player as a very loose calling station. Ultimately, it helped me later on when hitting a few hands that I knew he would pay me off if he had any part of the hand as he seemed unable to find the fold button, ever.

Just wondered if any of the other ploppers use notes, especially for MTT's. I don't think it's really necessary for DYM's as you face the same regs most of the time.

Jac35

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

Poor night for me on PLO8 DYM's losing a spectacular 7/8 in a row. Cut my losses and played a PLO8 MTT which I managed to win. What I'm posting about is player notes. It's something I'm not really familiar with but last night tagged a player as a very loose calling station. Ultimately, it helped me later on when hitting a few hands that I knew he would pay me off if he had any part of the hand as he seemed unable to find the fold button, ever. Just wondered if any of the other ploppers use notes, especially for MTT's. I don't think it's really necessary for DYM's as you face the same regs most of the time.
Posted by nickkay

Whenever I make notes I also put down whether it's a dym note or an mtt one.

Can make a big difference if it's not a regular opponent.

I also date my note. A note from 3 years ago may not be particularly useful now for example 

Also take emotion out of notes

"Fxxxing fish"

Won't be that helpful 6 months later

VespaPX

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

Poor night for me on PLO8 DYM's losing a spectacular 7/8 in a row. Cut my losses and played a PLO8 MTT which I managed to win. What I'm posting about is player notes. It's something I'm not really familiar with but last night tagged a player as a very loose calling station. Ultimately, it helped me later on when hitting a few hands that I knew he would pay me off if he had any part of the hand as he seemed unable to find the fold button, ever. Just wondered if any of the other ploppers use notes, especially for MTT's. I don't think it's really necessary for DYM's as you face the same regs most of the time.
Posted by nickkay

I take notes and colour code players.

Notes usually consist of what type of hands they limp with, e.g hi only, lo only, etc.

Do they fold their limp to a raise.

Do they flat a raise or 3 bet, with a view to getting it all in.

Colour code:

Red - tight player, raises with premiums only - danger.

Amber - Mixes it up a bit - proceed with caution.

Green - Any 4 limper - doesn't have a fold button.

Tikay has a golden halo :-)

nickkay

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

Do players always play in a certain way then? My play is dependant on what im watching on tv,skysports often getting in the way of a good bluff. Note to myself.Turn the tele off.
Posted by chilling

I tend to try and mix it up, player dependant of course. There are players though that just play one way, in all forms of poker I guess.

MattBates

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

Poor night for me on PLO8 DYM's losing a spectacular 7/8 in a row. Cut my losses and played a PLO8 MTT which I managed to win. What I'm posting about is player notes. It's something I'm not really familiar with but last night tagged a player as a very loose calling station. Ultimately, it helped me later on when hitting a few hands that I knew he would pay me off if he had any part of the hand as he seemed unable to find the fold button, ever. Just wondered if any of the other ploppers use notes, especially for MTT's. I don't think it's really necessary for DYM's as you face the same regs most of the time.
Posted by nickkay

My note taking is fairly poor. I tend to know most of the regs so dont really need notes on those players and tend to remember playing styles quite well. The ones who play infrequently but play very strangely (min flop bets/pot bets etc) are the ones that are good to have notes on. Some players will blast in 100bb pre flop so knowing if they do it with any ace or only do it with qq+ is fairly important. The best thing you can do is pick up on out of the ordinary plays but you need to take all notes with a pinch of salt and know they wont always be 100% right. 

nickkay

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks?:

In Response to Re: Can an old dog learn new tricks? : My note taking is fairly poor. I tend to know most of the regs so dont really need notes on those players and tend to remember playing styles quite well. The ones who play infrequently but play very strangely (min flop bets/pot bets etc) are the ones that are good to have notes on. Some players will blast in 100bb pre flop so knowing if they do it with any ace or only do it with qq+ is fairly important. The best thing you can do is pick up on out of the ordinary plays but you need to take all notes with a pinch of salt and know they wont always be 100% right. 
Posted by MattBates

Cheers Matt, good to have insight from an established winning player.

P.S please don't ever come and play PLO8 :P

Jac35

I'm not in the slightest bit hurt by a recent post.

As you're aware, I'm very thick skinned

Marv 

HENDRIK62

^^Too much fun, lolled quite a lot...