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But the example given was so much of a no brainer, I dnt think it fully got the point across about how calling with any 2 can sometimes be either correct, or definately worth considering.
Mid - late stage of a deepstack tourny with a large field,.....
average stack = 100k.
blinds 2k 4k.
UTG raises to 12k, 5 callers round to the big blind, we are chip leader with 300k and look down at 67 off! - What ya gonna do?
Ill tell ya now Im calling, the flop comes 3,4,5 rainbow, end up 3 players all in, bloke UTG had quite rightly raised with aces, horrorfied to see 5 callers behind, but cant get away. Player in late position has called pre to try and make a set with 33 44 or 55, getting the right price and implied odds, he isnt going away.
I have the nuts, eliminate 2 players, and lenghten my chip lead - by speculatively calling pre flop with a weak hand, because it was the right play.
Then the chatbox goes u f* **in donk, eediot, u will go broke, they weren't even suited!! etc etc etc.....
The point is, going back to the origional headline of this thread, "Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!!" --- Just because a bloke is holding a bad hand, or 2 poor cards....doesnt mean the standard of play is poor!
DOHH
Put it like this wat would u rather play against, 10 players who play the game how u do who are solid players as good & sum maybe better than u are? Ur odds of winning overall then are surely far less likely & less profitable than playing a table of fish/ chancers/ who overall the odds are against! I understand the frustration of losing hands to those types of players but u have to remember that these players are the bread & butter for most good players on any poker site & to suggest any kind of discrimination against these players would imo be absurd & very unsportsmanly. Unquestionably there is an element of luck in poker, & players can call with bad cards & get lucky but the majority of the time they call with bad cards they will be whittling their chips away.
Example- I was playing 2p/4p the other day & there was a player going crazy in the chat window calling another player an idiot,fish etc etc coz he'd had afew bad beats. I thought this was largely unfair so pointed out that this table was a BEGINNERS table! This table SHOULD be where BEGINNERS get the chance to improve there game, learn from their mistakes & make bad calls & if any decent player is narrow minded enough to play these tables with that in mind then abuse novice players for bad beats then they only have there selves to blame.
This is however just my thoughts & opinion & I feel being a good loser when it happens against wateva cards the opposition has is just as important as being a good winner!
Thanks Lord Earl, nice first Post, too.
When we move in with J-J & get called by 8-2, the 8-2 wins sometimes. Not often, but now & then.
We don't complain - in fact, we permit ourselves a little smug smile - when 8-2 numpty makes his ridiculous Call & loses.
In fact, over time - & this is not disputable - 8-2 man loses this coup almost nine times in 10. And we smile smugly nine times in 10.
So, all things consdidered, it behoves us to lose with dignity, & show a little mental fortitude, when, on the 10th occasion, our numpty friend gets his token win.
And we NEED him to win now & then - he's our seedcorn. He's the soft touch at the Table who enables us average players to do OK.
The thread began with the comment "I'm fed up with these bad players....I moved onto this Site to get away from them".
Well you cannot get away from them - they are everywhere, Live & Online. Thank goodness.
We can't have our cake & eat it. We're happy to take their money 9 times in 10. So we ought to be a little more gracious in defeat 1 time in 10.
That's the thing with poker. It shows who can face up to the wind & rain in their face, when the going gets tough.
In Response to Re: STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!!:
NICE PERSONAL ATTACKCHEERS
Thankyou Tikay, & perfectly put & more articulate than myself
Heres another thought...
What about the guy who is a solid player 99% of the time with a good track record & a consistently accumilating bankroll. BUT occasionally on a fri night after afew shandys enjoys to purely gamble a minute undetremental percentage of his bankroll to play the role of the 'underdog' for the sheer smugness of hitting with a badbeat! At that point this player would be thought of as a fish or suchlike by everyone at that table correct? Its reasonable to assume that odds are overall his fri night play will see him at a loss.
HOWEVER if the other players at that table remember him as a fish, then when they come across him the other 99% of the time when he's playing his game solid it is more likely he will be underestimated. Just an interesting viewpoint I think?
Im not quite sure wat ur argument is? U seem to hav suffered some unfortunate bad 'luck' against some players calling with bad cards & getting lucky! Just bcoz the odds are 'generally' 1 in 10 in ur favour with good cards doesnt mean u cant lose to badbeats in succession & have a bad run it just means uv been terribly unlucky! Stick with it & I have no doubt u will see ur luck pick up & good play pay off!
If you go all-in with a-k and get called by 8-2 and then get beat with a 2 on the river, it looks horrendous so you will remember it as a "strange" bad beat. However, 8-2 will win 32% of the time! But because it looks like such a terrible call, many people will cry that they got sucked out by a 7% chance on the river, conveniently forgetting that they were likely to lose 1 in 3 times pre-flop.
This is why mentally accepting (and appreciating) bad beats, bad luck and bad players is crucial to progressing in poker. Tikay was not attacking Fallen, only trying to help her, I hope she can look at his post again in a different light and learn the essential truths within it.
Debdobs is right. I dont know how often these beats happen - though I would not call them "strange". They are not strange at all, that's the point everyone needs to take on board. They are a cocktail of maths & variance, doing their thing.
The 8-2 man might, in fact, win v J-J 3 times running. That's called variance. For J-J man, that is "-Ve". (-Ve = Negative Variance).
And then, lose with 8-2 v J-J 30 times on the bounce. For J-J man, that's called +Ve. (Positive Variance).
However, variance is impotent, because it's owned by Maths. And over time, Maths always rules. Over time, there are NO exceptions.
I'm sorry xFALLENx thinks it was a personal attack. It was not - I don't do personal attacks, as anyone & everyone knows. But I do spend a lot of my own time - as here - to try to explain to poker players how the game works.
But if anyone cannot grasp how maths & variance collude to make poker such a wonderful game, they are in denial of the facts. And it's my job to try to explain these things.
And if poker becomes something that hurts, that is painful, where a defeat or a run of losses causes anyone to become really upset or hurt, my advice is always the same. They either need to understand how poker works, or play something different.
Poker is a game at our level. And why play games we don't enjoy?
OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG WHAT IVE BEEN TRYING 2 SAY ITS ALL BEEN ROUGH......SMOOTH DOESNT EVEN COME IN2 IT.....BUT IVE CHANGED GAMES (TY DEBDOBS 4 UR SUGGESTION) AND MOVED 2 HIGHER PRICED TABLES....U STILL GET THE ODD CHANCER (READS PODS POST) BUT IT NOWHERE AS BAD...
Heres an example of luck for u all- I entered a sitngo double your money the other day & to my shock I had 4 hole cards & realised I'd entered an Omaha which I had never played before in my life or even knew the rules! I googled the rules & proceeded to double my money & take 1st place to win. Later that day I entered £200 guaranteed Omaha tourney with 30 entrants as Id enjoyed variance of the earlier sitngo, I took 1st place & £80. Now having never played it before against people who had ud think there would have to be a fair element of luck on my side wouldnt u say?! Sorry if iv slightly gone off track from the original thread.
and no its not a personnal attack on me....sure
I play against these players ( in MTT's ) regularly - sometimes I play like them. The last thing I want is to be predictable. It can be frustrating. Often as not I find myself in stitches laughing. But then I don't play, or expect, to make a profit. Lighten up is my response to you. There is no right way to play and even the experts get it wrong.
As it happens, my account has doubled since the start of the year so you can beat them if you think it out.
STANDARD OF PLAY GONE UP....YEAH RIGHT!!!!:
+ 1 Hugs
And welcome aboard Risky, very good point about the solid player who might play loose on friday nights after a couple of beers for a change. Look forward to more of your posts.
Can I suggest that you get a nice warm blanket, a large amount of your favourite tipple, those chocolates that you swore you'd never eat again but you still got as a xmas present, find something good to watch on TV (hard, I know, but there must be something on) and just get away from this thread for a bit! What they don't seem to be able to get their heads around is that you don't care about the odds, the variance, all the various statistics and whether it'll be alright and "you'll come good in the end"! What you care about is that its been going on for weeks and you're fed up with it! I'm with pokertrev, Lisa-Marie and Debs, HUGS HUGS and MORE HUGS!!!
Let's take my case in point. I have recently been playing some Omaha tournaments on another site and have had top twenty finishes on 3 occasions in 400+ fields. Meanwhile I have played a number of minor Omaha tournaments (DYM's) on Sky and won exactly nothing. How can this be? Well it's not because the players on Sky are better. I don't think I play differently on Sky (maybe I should), and I haven't had the mythical doom button pressed by Sky. What's the answer? The answer is I don't know, and what would be easy is to start to anylise it too deeply and come up with all sorts of reasons.
The problem when this sort of thing happens is a tendency to be on the look-out for reasons and that is where I think Fallen is now. Selective memory comes into play and we are waiting in anticipation of the next ''occurrence.'' These anticipated outcomes are then stored in our memory to the exception of all other outcomes and we build a catalogue of times when we were beaten. After a while we start to believe that we are losing out every time because that's what our (selective) memory is telling us. No amount of reasoning by others can shake our belief that this is happening to us because we have a stored history to remind us. We then alter how we play based on our expected outcome and our game deteriorates to cause even more problems. After a while it seems that everything is conspiring against us and area51 beckons. Don't be hard on someone going through this as you could be next.
I know of lots of very good players who have ended up in this vicious circle and it's hard to escape it. Understanding what is happening is a first step to beating it. Stopping playing for a period is good as you can often come back with a fresh outlook and a positive approach. My way is to play somewhere else and see if it is an improvement and come back when the ''gods'' are with you, if not I stop for a while. Never burn your bridges by saying you will leave permanently or that the site has it in for you. This will only alienate you from the other players sympathy. Take a break.
Those who think it will never happen to them are brave souls. I hope it never does, but....... it might.
I HAVENT SAID IM LEAVING AND I HAVENT BLAMED SKY 4 MY MISFORTUNE,
JUST DOWN BUT NOT OUT.
AND OF COURSE EVERYBODY ELSE WHO HAS HELPED AND UNDERSTOOD WHERE IM COMING FROM.
I realise that Fallen....it was a general comment regarding this problem and for anyone who got to the end of my post without falling asleep. Not aimed at you at all.
Take a break, it WILL change but you need to break the cycle.
If xFALLENX wants "hugs", fine, I'll offer hugs, though I fancy I might get a slap round the chops in return.
Hugs won't help though. Hugs would be as useful as a handkerchief when someone has a cold. Hankies don't cure colds. Being all cooey-wooey won't stop another run of -ve variance hitting xFALLENx or any other impartial reader of this Thread. Because, as sure as God made little apples, everyone gets hit by negative variance.
Many years ago, it used to trouble me, too, but I learned what caused it, & why, & how to deal with it mentally, & at the Table.
Understanding it is the ONLY way to be able to handle it.
So I spent a lot of my time explaining what variance is. They were not my opinion, they were hard, cold, facts. Variance is there, & it's brutal. Our enjoyment of the game hinges entirely on understanding variance.
Enjoying the good when we get it, storing it up in our little reservoir of satisfaction, & using it to see us through the bad spells, works for most of us. Getting upset & frustrated will not help. Ever. Understanding it will.
If I were given the choice of a hug or an explanation which enabled me to handle it, I know what I'd want.
In fact, both are fine, but the explanation is the one that matters. The hug is the hanky, the explanation is the medicine.